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For those who may want a copy of my variation of Tom's spreadsheet, which has several different variations as well as CAGR and Quick AIM Calculator, drop me a note at:
60e20f21@opayq.com
and I'll be happy to send it to you.
Hi Toofuzzy, I believe the correct name for that computer is LEAD #2. :)
Thanks, Firebird, I hadn't heard of that newsletter. Is it still around?
Hi Gang, It's been fun watching the positions on my watch list. Basically when the stocks, as a group, mostly go up the bond funds mostly go down and vis-versa.
Anyway that leads the way to a book I recently got:
"Stock Market Cash Trigger," by David Alan Carter, Echo West Publishing, 2018, ISBN-13: 978-0-9980210-1-0 Paperback $17.99 on Amazon. There is also a kindle version that might be free to read.
Basically what he demonstrates, using only SPY as the indicator, is to sell the stock you hold when it drops below the 200 day SMA and put the cash into one of three bond ETFs: JNK, MUB and TLT, whichever is further up currently. Then, when SPY goes back up over the 200 day SMA buy back your stock. He tracks 10 stocks and the S&P 500 (SPY) NASDAQ 100 (QQQ) and the Russell 2000 (IWM) in comparison to Buy & Hope from 2000 through 2017.
It's amazing that even just selling and holding cash this way does great. Amazon B&H has a return of 1432.6% versus his method of 2393.6%. Apple 5042.3% versus 8843.5%. Of the 10 only IBM and Wal-Mart do better with B&H. The chart for this is on page 33.
On page 45, using the three bond ETFs for your cash holding places, the results are incredible, I kid you not. Amazon gets 4124.8% versus the B&H of 1432.6%. Apple gets 15,051.6% versus 5042.3% B&H.
The rest of the book goes through other examples in more depth.
One interesting point he makes is that he found that checking things at the end of the month rather than at the first does a bit better.
In a way his approach is similar the AIM, just 100% moves rather than 10-15%. Like AIM, it is a longer term process, not a short term get rich quick scheme.
He also wrote another book, "The 12% Solution" that is also available on Amazon.
Even if you don't wish to use his method I think reading the book might help you work with AIM better in the long run.
Hi Sunil, If you'll send your e-mail address to me at 3bc5d373@opayq.com I'll send you a copy of a couple of versions of TwinVest to play with.
Sorry, Tom, I not sure what it is that I wrote that you are referring to. Could you please explain.
Thanks.
And, and BTW, Happy Christmas and Merry New Year!
Amazing. Of the various lists that Yahoo says were the best up portfolios today, out of 120 positions, 99 were down, 6 with no change, and only 15 were up.
And they called these portfolios up from 240% to over 5,000%. Just shows one can not trust all the noise about the market out there.
Hi Tom, I found your post quite interesting but I was a bit puzzled by a couple of things. The main on was what one should do when the cash on hand goes up so much. I still don't have an answer to that but I created a spreadsheet which, for me, showed the cash on hand issue more concretely than the chart you showed.
I started the position as of the first date in your data and did it with 80% shares and 20% cash. I can't get the spreadsheet to display in an easily readable form so I'm only going to list the last line.
Date: 11/23/2018
Shares on Hand: 356
Current price: $174.35
Current stock value: $62,068.60
Current cash on hand: $25,846.41
Total Value: $87,915.01
I started with $7532.97 Cash on hand and the $37,664.88
cost of the 490 shares. It ends with 29.4% cash.
If one starts with 5% cash on hand it winds up with 24.55% cash on hand.
Given this and that there was a sale less than a month after the start it seems to me that buying a solid stock in a bull market is best done with a lower cash percentage. Another thing that one might think of doing is increase the number of shares bought in a downswing during a bull market.
The other thing that might work well is to use a pool of cash for a variety of positions so that there would be more cash on hand but a lower percentage of cash per position which would still allow protection but allow for better returns overall.
However, I would not venture this direction at the moment as this is the longest bull market in American history. It's highly likely the bears are mighty hungry and will be gobbling what they can find all too soon.
Hi Adam (and Tom) Reading your comments on algorithmic trading, including Tom's view in #43342, it just occurred to me that one might try putting a position into two AIM spreadsheets, one with tighter BUY/SELL as well as a smaller stock trade size, and the other with the parameters that Tom has been using.
Doing this side-by-side might help in the current rocky market but the one problem I see is that one needs to have a bigger $/total shares position so that the smaller number of shares still brings in enough to more than cover commissions and still brings in some change on a sell.
This is where your choice of lower price positions makes sense.
On a buy it might make sense, when doing a lower price position, to buy more than the smaller limit. Not sure about this, I'll have to run some tests.
Hi Tom, While I agree that AI trading is not all that intelligent I don't trust Cramer's ideas for the most part.
Three years ago there was a test done of Cramer's recommendations and mostly they were losers. Of the 49 below, 14 are winners or breakeven the rest are losers.
"Jim Cramer’s 49 stocks recommended six months ago:
Ticker Company Six-month return (4/7/15 - 10/7/15)
FTNT, -3.18% Fortinet Inc. +24.60%
UA, -1.61% Under Armour Inc. +22.54%
PANW, -3.22% Palo Alto Networks Inc. +20.54%
MDLZ, -0.72% Mondelez International Inc. +19.78%
HRL, -1.09% Hormel Foods Corp. +10.38%
DHI, -0.27% D.R. Horton Inc. +9.10%
AZO, +0.16% AutoZone Inc. +6.19%
CI, -3.49% Cigna Corp.
EW, -3.15% Edwards Lifesciences Corp. +4.71%
HUM, -2.11% Humana Inc.
CBRL, -1.71% Cracker Barrel Old Country Store Inc. +1.25%
LB, -3.87% L Brands Inc.
DRI, -2.88% Darden Restaurants Inc.
SJM, -2.71% J.M. Smucker Co.
LEN, +0.05% Lennar Corp. -0.49%
UNH, -2.36% UnitedHealth Group Inc. -0.78%
KR, -1.49% Kroger Co. -1.75%
CVS, -2.81% CVS Health Corp. -2.06%
MNST, -0.10% Monster Beverage Corp. -2.08%
COST, -3.09% Costco Wholesale Corp. -2.52%
US:JAH Jarden Corp. -4.01%
BSX, -3.24% Boston Scientific Corp. -4.92%
PRGO, -3.86% Perrigo Co. -5.22%
AVGO, +0.77% Avago Technologies Ltd. -5.58%
TOL, +1.08% Toll Brothers Inc. -5.89%
ROST, -2.89% Ross Stores Inc. -6.12%
AN, -1.84% AutoNation Inc. -6.37%
MDT, -2.06% Meditronic Plc -8.08%
ADI, -1.94% Analog Devices Inc. -8.48%
DG, -3.22% Dollar General Corp. -8.78%
AGN, -1.83% Allergan Plc -8.99%
CYBR, -1.46% CyberArk Software Ltd. -11.08%
DKS, +2.39% Dick’s Sporting Goods Inc. -12.48%
CERN, -1.35% Cerner Corp. -13.22%
SWKS, -2.44% Skyworks Solutions Inc. -13.61%
CAH, -1.06% Cardinal Health Inc. -13.78%
HBI, -2.74% Hanesbrands Inc. -14.32%
MCK, -0.33% McKesson Corp. -16.62%
ABC, -1.77% AmerisourceBergen Corp. -17.52%
KMX, -2.32% CarMax Inc. -19.10%
JACK, -0.29% Jack in the Box Inc. -19.25%
FEYE, -3.41% FireEye Inc. -19.52%
DLTR, -3.14% Dollar Tree Inc. -21.94%
M, -1.76% Macy’s Inc. -24.75%
URBN, -2.74% Urban Outfitters Inc. -29.54%
DDS, -1.70% Dillard’s Inc. -33.59%
CY, -1.80% Cypress Semiconductor Corp. -33.62%
QRVO, -1.12% Qorvo Inc. -37.80%
KSS, -4.01% Kohl’s Corp. -41.11%
Average -7.09%
S&P 500 SPX, -1.53% -3.88%"
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/jim-cramer-loses-big-in-this-stock-picking-test-2015-10-22
I can't locate it at the moment but if I recall correctly another person did a longer term look at Cramer's picks and came up with similar results.
Hi Folks, Interesting tidbit in the paper today. The gap between the 2 year and the 10 year Treasury note yield curve inverted yesterday and this has been the case prior to a recession over the last 60 years. Mostly a fairly short time before the dip but sometimes a bit more than a year before the slide down the roller coaster.
Combine this with ~3.2% drop in the S&P as well as ~3.1% drop in the DOW and we need to pay attention to what happens next.
Hang on, it might be a wild ride this time as it has been the longest bull market in American history.
Hi TooFuzzy, Yeah, I used the amount that the PUT would require if it was assigned when calculating the total return.
As to where the money comes from, it is a combination of earned dividends and the income from selling PUTs and CALLs as well as income when a CALL is assigned the difference between the purchase price and the CALL price.
I haven't tried your approach of buying a CALL at a deep in the money price, partly because of the current volatility of the market and partly I can't say I truly understand that approach. I'll have to find an ETF (Do you have a suggested one to try it with?) and paper trade it a bit to see how it works. It takes quite a bit of time to do paper trades enough to cover variations in the market. I spent over a year doing the one I'm using now, selling PUTs and CALLs as well as extra shares to AIM with.
Hi Toofuzzy, I've been using the date of the first PUT as the starting point for calculating return rate, as you suggest. It just seems a bit dingy given that one has no costs at that point and might not for up to 90 days, that's why I was asking.
As to results, on one position that is 198 days since selling the put; the total return, including dividends on all of the shares, including the extras bought for AIMing when the put was assigned, is now $3787, 55.47%.
Mind you, that includes the shares still held which could drop significantly should the market tank but then AIM would kick in so that would help maintain the gain, which is why, it seems to me, that the combo of options and AIM is a good idea.
I have a hard time believing that this type of return would be typical so I'm being cautious about choosing the next set to try. I think I'll just paper trade for quite a while before doing an actual trade.
Hey Clive, Toofuzzy, How do you calculate the return on option buys/sales and the final results?
Say you sell a $20 PUT 90 days out for a $1/share and then it gets assigned at a cost of $20/share. This would mean that your actual costs is $19/share. If you then sell a $20 CALL for a $1/share 90 days out. If it then gets assigned you have netted $2/share.
Of course this does not include the AIM shares which remain in the position regardless of the options play.
And this does not include commissions and SEC charges. My cost of assignment is $15 and the cost of options is $1.25/per contract.
So what date does one use to calculate the returns? If you use the date the PUT is assigned it does not include the income that happened 30 days prior.
What is the best way to do this?
The posts I did about mixing AIM with options is working quite well so far with a total return including dividends and stocks still on hand of just over $5000 on $42,500 in working capital. It surprises me that I have done so well with this approach. The total of all dividends on the rest of the AIM positions (not including the options positions) is a bit less than $3,000, so the results are great, in my mind.
Hi Tom, Could you tell us how you made that spreadsheet and how you collect the data to fill it?
Thanks,
Allen
Hi Tom, That's another possibility, a coin with "Greedy" on one side and "Scared" on the other. That would give one 2% better odds than analysts give us.
Hi Tom, A great idea; however, we wouldn't likely be able to sell enough to pay the cost of creating it. What I suggest instead is a coin with a bull on one side and a bear on the other.
Hi Gang, It's clear from some studies that have been done that forecasts are, for practical purposes, useless.
"In 2017 one of the present authors and his colleagues published an in-depth analysis of 68 market forecasters, including many prominent figures in the industry, some of whom employ technical analysis and others of whom do not. Expanding on an earlier study by the CXO Advisory Group, they analyzed forecasts based on two key factors:
1.) The time frame of the forecast. Forecasts are categorized as up to one month, up to three months, up to nine months or beyond nine months.
2.) The importance and specificity of the forecast. For example, a forecast that states “the market will be volatile in the next few days” is not a very specific forecast, but the forecast “the market will experience a correction” is more specific and thus more important.
The study found that the average accuracy score of these forecasts was 48%, not significantly different than chance, and the distribution of scores followed a Gaussian bell curve indistinguishable from that of a distribution of random deviates. In short, there was no statistically significant evidence of any overall skill."
http://mathinvestor.org/2018/11/profits-prophets-and-pseudoscience/
Hi Toofuzzy, I'm curious what was the price you bought more shares of AMZA, and what is the median price of your holdings.
Using the online calculator and a bit of wild stabbing while using a PC of $20,000, a BUY Safe of 5% and a SELL safe of 5% with a minimum trade of 10% I came up with the number of shares at 2812, which got me the next sell at $8.37 and the next buy at $6.18, almost the same as your figures, but I couldn't figure out how you bought 18.59% more shares.
How did you get there?
BTW, when I did a market order check it wouldn't have any at $6.19 but did at $6.18, 283.65 shares, so I'd guess rounding off to 284 shares.
Hi Tom, What are the symbols for those you bought?
Hi Toofuzzy, I'm a bit confused by your last post. You say:
Thanks Pro-Life, Yes, I am aware of the risks and will likely paper trade for about a year before putting any money on the table.
As to your link, it's quite funny as I just bought her book about commodities, "A Trader's First Book on Commodities" by Carley Garner. I haven't finished it yet and I'll likely read it twice before starting paper trades, but thanks for the link for her paper trade site. I didn't know about it.
On a last question, can you suggest where on TDAmeritrade one could find more information about commodity options?
Thanks,
Allen
Hi Folks, I'm trying to learn about options on futures but I'm stuck not understanding the symbols, strike prices and the correct contract name structure to look for.
For a Ford stock call I know a contract name looks like F180928C00010500 which means the date is 9/28/2018, it's a call and the strike price is $10.50. What, for an example, does a wheat commodities contract name look like? Are all commodities options structured the same way?
I'm doing fairly well on options for stocks but my understanding is that commodities can be a lot better to work with in terms of the price per option. Often with stocks I wind up trading 5 to 10 contracts at a price of $0.25 to $0.65 per share.
Every book I've read so far covers everything but what the symbols are and how one can find the option prices for puts and calls. Anyone got good pointers as to where I can find out this stuff?
Also what do you think is the best broker to use for commodities. Currently I'm using TDAmeritrade but I've not gotten any real help from them in this area.
If you want to e-mail me I'm at s7edtu6skhd4@opayq.com
Thanks a bunch!
Allen
Hi Gang, I've finished the book, "How A Second Grader Beats Wall Street," and on the whole, discounting the somewhat strident parts, it's quite good. In fact a friend fits the profile of a person who this would be best for, someone not all that interested in managing an investment on any kind of a regular basis. She would not likely even finish the book if I were to suggest she read it. Later on when I'm getting gaga I'll switch to it as well.
From what I can tell so far it's not as fabulous as he claims but it is not as bad as a more traditional Buy & Hope.
On another issue, the error I thought I found, it was pointed out to me that if one re-balanced between the two funds at the end of each year you would, indeed, get 10%/year. He just didn't mention this and I didn't think of it myself since he was pushing the idea of doing as little fiddling as possible.
Hi Gang, The book that was mentioned recently, "How A Second Grader Beats Wall Street," is interesting but it's a bit pounding the skull with the same statements, rephrased somewhat, again and again.
However, it has some merit. If one gets in near the bottom, 2/6/2009, his main position, VTSMX, gets slightly less that the S&P 500 Index (^GSPC on Yahoo), however if you were to get in from the top on 10/1/2007, you'd do better than the index, 5.86% for ^GSPC versus 6.74% for VTSMX. Odd. I don't understand why so I'll have to think about it some more. Of course the issue may be that I'm only comparing the US stock to the S&P Index and not including the International, VGTSX, and the bond fund, VBMFX. Combining the three may make the difference.
But then I came upon a significant error in Chapter 6, Illustration 6.3. Truly bizarre error given that he touts himself a a math wiz.
He states that splitting your investment into two countervailing investments where one goes up 30% in a good year and down 10% in a bad year, with the other the inverse, one would get 10% per year return. It didn't sound right soI decided to test it and found that, yeah, in the first year one gets 10% overall, BUT in the second year one gets only 6.36%, and it alternates this way every other year.
for an overall result of 8.165%, certainly not bad but it makes me hesitate to take everything else he says without a few grains of salt.Rainy Fund Sunny Fund Sum
Start 1000 1000 2000
Rain 1300 900 2200 10.00%
Sun 1170 1170 2340 6.36%
Rain 1521 1053 2574 10.00%
Sun 1368.9 1368.9 2737.8 6.36%
Rain 1779.57 1232.01 3011.58 10.00%
Sun 1601.61 1601.613 3203.2 6.36%
Rain 2082.099 1441.451 3523.54 10.00%
Sun 1873.887 1873.887 747.774 6.36%
Rain 2436.053 1686.498 4122.551 10.00%
Sun 2192.448 2192.448 4384.896 6.36%
Hi Toofuzzy, I guess that at my age I don't want to wait around for LEAPS and such, but you are correct, the longer the term and the closer the strike price is to the current price the more money you get.
I did some calculations a while back and found, for the positions I was testing, the shorter term options got slightly higher returns per year. Not much, but every penny counts.
The other reason I'm using shorter term options is that I suspect we are getting quite close to a significant down market and I don't want to be selling PUTs in a down market. That's the time for a covered CALL.
Hi Tom, In calculating the V-Wave I see it uses 50% cash as the basis. What is the formula if one wants to use other than a 50% cash position?
Hi bar1080, Most excellent post. If you use the search term Asset Class vs. "The Average Investor" on Startpage.com you will find a whole lot more sites with very similar data.
Thanks bar1080 for the link. Certainly worth reading.
Anyway, on another subject, how the market is moving in micro-steps up and down. A while back I posted about my positions going up and down only a small percentage. Well, because there was a slight screw-up in how a bond was closed I went back and collected the data for the whole account over the last couple of weeks. Here are the results starting on 8/21 through yesterday:
+0.41%, -0.12%, -0.08%, -0.04%, +0.05%, +0.03%, +0.17%, -0.11%, -0.18%, +0.21%, +0.28%, -0.02%, a total up 0.6%, not at all bad but if one uses a SELL safe of 0% and a minimum trade of 10% of shares this would mean waiting about 200 days for the next trade on the whole package.
Thank goodness one is dealing with individual positions with somewhat more volatility.
Hi Toofuzzy, Thanks for the pointer to the Investopedia article. I's a good read.
Hi Ray, It's a bit complicated but basically one has to use a bigger account so that the minimum size of the trade is 100 shares at a time. Lower price positions make this easier. It is also best to chose a high volatility position to make this work.
Connecting with AIM is a two part process. First one selects a position that one wants to get into and sells a PUT at a price you select. I'll use $25 as an example. Say the PUT is at $0.60/share, that means $60/per contract. One wants at least $20,000 per position, so one would sell 4 contracts and also put in a GTC for $24.40 for 400 shares as well.
Okay, assuming both orders are fulfilled, you would now have 800 for a cost per share at about $24.40 or a total of $19,520. Next one selects the next buy price and the next sell price. Lets say that you find a PUT option at $22.00, you'd sell a PUT for 100 shares, one contract, about 12% of total shares. If the PUT would sell for $0.50/share this would mean you'd get the shares at a net of about $21.50, assuming it dipped that far before the option ran out of time.
The other thing one needs to do is select a CALL option at roughly the normal SELL safe price. In this case you would sell 4 contracts at about $27.00. Say the option price is $0.45/share or a total of $180.
Okay, let's assume that the price does not move outside the range of $22 to $27, assuming both options sold, this would mean that you would have collected about $230 at the end of option life, assuming you used monthly options and that you kept the length to less than 60 days, you would have made about 7.5%/year on your investment plus any dividends.
Assuming the price dropped you would then have 900 shares at a total cost of $21,670, an average cost per share of $24.08.
If the price when up you would be left with 400 shares and would have collected $10,800 from the assigned shares plus the $230 from selling the PUT and CALL, or roughly 45.8%/year on your total investment, in this case over 60 days or so. Not at all bad.
You could make a bit more if you did a sale of the 400 shares left over at a bit over the $27 market price. If one used 10% of the remaining shares, 40 at a bit over $27, say $27.50, that would bring in a net of about $120 more, nice but not critical.
This seems to be better if the total involved is at least $30-35,000.
I'm still playing with this to work out better details but this is what I have so far.
It's funny how one can miss seeing something for a long time and not know how useful it can be. I just noticed that it is possible to compare two positions on the chart on Yahoo. So I went and compared MORL and REML. For practical purposes you might as well say their movement is identical in terms of percentage change day over day.
Adding in the S&P 500 and one can see how AIM could do a better job than B&H.
Hey, Toofuzzy and the rest of you, In looking at MORL versus REML I came across a Seeking Alpha article about mREITs that talked about the field as a whole as well as suggesting that MORL might be a good choice going forward.
https://seekingalpha.com/article/4203693-giant-20-percent-yield-ripe-picking?dr=1
One point Rida Morwa (Research analyst, REITs, energy, Dividend income for retirees) makes is: "Our view is that we are approaching the end of the interest rate increase cycle and that the risks of investing in mortgage REITs (or in most high-dividend stocks or bonds) is lower today than it was in the past two years."
Given that the last significant drop in the market was back in January this year and that it is somewhat similar to prior dips before a grizzly bear market it's possible it is a forewarning of things to come. Who knows when? Hard to tell as so many things could become triggers as they have in the past.
Thanks, Adam, for the reference to the book, "How a Second Grader Beats Wall Street." I just ordered it from Alibris.com for the 2011 paperback for less than a buck more than the Kindle version.
One of the things I've found is if I'm reading a book on a computer/tablet at night I have a much harder time getting to sleep at a reasonable hour. The other day it took me until after 2 AM and I had stopped using the computer just before 11 PM!
I agree that there are some limitations to Lichello's book and the way things are presented. It takes a while to catch on to them but the more we study and share what we find the better off we all are.
Hi Adam, You pointed out the one of the problems with too much cash better than I did.
The other problem with high cash is that, unless one places it in some position with good returns, the brokers don't pay all that much in interest, roughly 0.1%, so, say you have a typical market return of about 6% and you have 50% in cash, then your real return is only about 3% return on your total. Slightly better than listed inflation, but not real life inflation as I experience it. I track my real life inflation by looking at what I buy to eat. One of my favorites for years has been flank steak. About 6 years ago I could buy it at $1.79/lb. Now it typically runs $4.59/lb. That's only 16.99%/year. Ouch.
Not all things are that bad, but I figure my real world inflation is around 5-6%/year in the San Francisco Bay Area. This means keeping s high percentage in cash dooms one to losing ground overall.
With AIM and selling PUTS and CALLS I'm staying ahead of this a bit but not by any huge amount. I wish I better understood what you do with your trading, Adam, and how to find positions worth taking a risk on.
Actually, Toofuzzy, relying solely on AIM could get you into serious problems when you hit a down market. Unless you use a larger BUY safe, or a larger cash %, you will wind up buying too much at too high a price. Using risk indicators will allow one to increase the BUY safe so that you won't buy when the market has gone down only 15-20% when it is going to bottom out at 45-55% as it did in the last two grizzly bear markets.
If you are not very careful you'll run out of cash prior to the bottom of the market and it will be a while on the up side before you break even.
Hi Tom, What are the four risk indicators you are using?
Everyone else, are there risk indicators that are different than Tom is using that you find useful?
Me, I'm stumbling around on this as the various ideas I've tried, as well as the ones from various web sites I've looked at are all a jumble with little proven track records although many claim a good history.
Conference Board Leading Economic Index (LEI) is one that Zacks suggests as well as US Department of the Treasury Yield Curve.
The University of Michigan Consumer Confidence numbers is another possibility but I'm not sure I trust it all that much as it is quite subjective. There are other indices that attempt to measure comfort with risk but my perception is that in reality, this kind of indicator relies more on intuition than data.
Hi Gang, There used to be a roller coaster in San Francisco that reminds me of how the stock market typically moves, a long, slow climb to the top and then a momentary pause before plunging to the low point and then on through various twists and turns until the current passengers were disgorged before taking on more passengers and resuming the climb to the top.
What do you think? Has the climb reached it's peak yet? How much long will it go on, would you guess?
Historically there have been more than one plateau in the October/November region. Do you think this is a likely turning point?
Being a cautious person I won't bet on it either way.
Hi TooFuzzy, Where did you get your correlations data?
In looking up the idea I got an Annual Returns correlation of .13 to SPY for MORL at https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/asset-correlations
For Monthly Returns correlation I got .35 and for Daily Returns I got .48.
Hi Toofuzzy, You're right. I guess I was more tired than I realized. What I did was take the longer chart of MORL and overlap it with REML. Duh, 2 years don't match 6 years.
But I don't see how REML could hold more positions as its total Net Assets is only $34.44 Million versus MORL's total Net Assets of $461.64 million, 13 times REML.
The other thing that concerns me is that MORL has over 20 times the average trading volume per day than REML. Low volume can run into problems is my understanding.
As to Tom's comment on beta, REML hasn't been around long enough to get a beta on Yahoo but NASDAQ says the beta is 1.87 while MORL has a Yahoo beta of 0.68 and a NASDAQ beta of 1.69. (Does NASDAQ add a 1 to the standard beta or do they use a different formula?)