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I sold a ton today. Most likely will sell the rest tomorrow. I wanted to be optimistic and have held for a while thinking that the financials would provide a brief spike in the price. At this point I don't think they will ever be released. Good Luck.
To be honest I have always enjoyed reading your thoughts and discussions. I consider them to be typically unbiased and constructive, but to say “A business won’t survive because you can import cheaper versions from china” could apply to virtually any consumer good. Not to mention shipping, quality, customer service, returns, brand recognition, etc.
That is an interesting thought/idea. However that would only be a partial picture. Because sales tax is not charges when a vendor has a resale number, which would include all wholesale transactions. Also, sales tax would not be charged to online retail sales unless the sales were made in FL (or another state that VPOR has a physical nexus or substantial presence in)
Maybe for Capital vs ordinary gains.
Can it be as simple as there moving in the wholesale distribution direction? That would explain the much higher margins and lower figures.
The Consolidated Statement of operations (Income Statement) needs to be expanded, for a more comprehensive comparison of costs/expenses.
Interesting Post. I'm a believer that VPOR's true value is in it's potential acquisition cost. A majority of big tobacco is waiting on the side lines and seeing how the Vapor/Ecig market will evolve before they begin to buy out those which they believe to have the most growth potential (my opinion only). The traditional cigarette market is being eroded by sales of vaporizers, etc, especially with the younger market. People also quickly forget that this company has only been operating in its current form for about a year.
Why is it when everyone talks about the drop in share price they take it from the 52 Week high? The stock was at .0006 less then a year ago.
Also, Something else I have noticed that is very prevalent in the investing community is that few people take any personal responsibility. When people make money they attribute to there intelligence or superior DD, but when they lose money its the shady past of the CEO or all the Toxic loans.....Not that the individual bought at a price that was entirely too high in the first place.
I had to take a break from reading this board because I couldn't go 2-3 posts without everyone spewing "Toxic Loans". That phrase is the most misused and overused expression on this board. A toxic loan is one that either has little expectation to be paid back or one that loaned at such high rates that it imposes a financial hardship on the Lonee. Neither of these apply. Start up companies (especially in the MJ or related sector) have very few options when it comes to financing.
I have said this before and I will say it again. If you are unhappy with there financing methods please contact Vapor Group and loan them a million or two, at say 8-10% and take monthly installment payments that don't have the option to convert to shares.
Can everyone please stop using the phrase "toxic debt" I know it's a popular term but the more it's used here the more it's obvious none of you have a clue to its meaning.
Toxic debt is one of the following. 1) A loan that has a very high probability of not being paid back because the borrower is/will be in default, etc. 2) One that imposes very harsh terms or interest rates well above market.
Neither of these applies here. Startup companies for the most part do not have access to million dollar loans from convention banks. Therefore they must use non-tradition funding sources. I encourage all willing parties to contact Vapor Group directly and let them borrow 1.4 million @ 8% without stock conversion potential. I'm sure they would be very willing to comply.
You make several unsubstantiated claims. As you do in all your posts so I'm not sure why this time would surprise me.
Assuming the last few days was convertible debt from old SPLI notes:
"Basically giving away millions of shares for nothing"- By nothing you mean exchanging money for shares?
All it takes is Dror and maybe one other guy to vote to do anything they want at will.
This line shows the extent of your research and knowledge about the company. You can't even take the time and Google the name of one of the only two other board members/executives.
Do you believe that the internet and technology have made people dumber or has it just given dumb people an outlet to display there stupidity?
I'm not short, I'm not long. It may run, it may not. But it will go lower as Dror dilutes. - previous post from Crusen
It's this in-depth knowledge and research that leads one to become a board moderator. :)
This is a re-post of something I posted a few weeks ago and never got a response.
Here are a few of the older loans you mention below.
Total (Interest)
50,000 issued on Dec, 2011(28K paid on May,2012 Remaining 28,878 (6,878.67)
20,000 issued on Aug, 2011 (7,720.58 converted) 14,070 (1,790)
40,000 issued on June, 2012 46,746 (6,746)
20,000 issued on July, 2012 27,060 (7,060)
7,000 issued May, 2012 9,2663 (7,00)
So your telling me that all of these had a conversion date of
sometime between 9/5-10/7? These loans range from 2011-2014.
In addition to the larger ones from April & May 2014 which i'sent 6 months yet. ALL converted and sold their shares in the open market in the last 3 weeks? Or did they convert earlier and waited for this low price to sell?
Why would the older ones not converted to shares and sold when the stock price was .25-.45?
Is this your theory?
He has been using the term "Toxic debt" for days now without any actual knowledge of it's meaning.
Toxic debt is a very general term for one of the following.
Debt that is a a higher risk of default or issued at a much higher interest rate (compared to market) because it's possible the borrower will default.
Debt can also be considered "toxic" if it provides a significant burden on the borrower or if the debt is unlikely to be paid back.
I don't believe it either.
I'm obviously long here and have been for a while. I just feel there needs to be some type of recourse against these pump companies for distributing baseless information to create panic.
I don't put any faith in those pump companies. Just read there disclosure
What will happen if an investor relies on the Information?
The Information is neither a solicitation to buy nor an offer to sell securities. The Information should not be used to make an investment decision or for trading or investment purposes. If an investor relies on the Information in making an investment decision it is highly probable that the investor will lose most, if not, all of his or her investment.
It is very strange indeed.
That pump disclosure is either misleading or confusing.
If you notice the chart it details "Who Paid for the
Campaign & Position with Company if any" Vpor is not listed in that section and most of the paid pumps are initiated by MICROCAP INNOVATIONS LLC
VPOR – Pursuant to an agreement between us and VAPOR GROUP INC, we were hired for a 37 day period period beginning on 8/25/14 and ending on 10/2/14 to publicly disseminate information about VAPOR GROUP INC and compensated $200,000
It says the agreement to disseminate information was between the EGM firm and vapor, it doesn't make mention of who paid for the pump.
My question is why, If Vapor Group did pay 200K for the pump is it not listed in the chart above, and instead is included below?
I don't know who is worse on this board. The basher's who make unsupported claims about dilution, going bankrupt, reverse splits, when the stock is in the red. Or the cheerleaders who flip flop daily and proclaim that the pps is going $.25-$1 when we get one green day.
Thank you for your analysis and response.
Last night I spent some time with my THB and I thought a lot about what you said regarding Hanover involved in a massive short campaign to drive down the price before they convert. I'm not sure if you were serious or not but its certainly possible and would explain why all this started at the same time Vpor announced they would be paying a "portion" of the debt off early. 8% of the (4) Hanover notes (1,342,391 total) is only a bit over 100,00. How much could they make if they shorted it down and converted into the maximum allowance of 4.99% of VPOR outstanding shares, and then rode up their convertible shares (17,000,000, or significantly more if their is dilution occurring) during what would many assume to be a healthy rally during the fall/winter months. Just another possible scenario.
I agree a portion (or all of it) could certainly be dilution of convertible notes.
It certainly makes sense. I just don't like when people make statements passing them as facts without any ability to substantiate their claims.
If you look at all the convertible debt it was issued from early 2011 to may & june of 2014. Unlikely its all being converted and sold at the same time.
Go look for yourself.
Here are a few of the older ones:
Total (Interest)
50,000 issued on Dec, 2011(28K paid on May,2012 Remaining 28,878 (6,878.67)
20,000 issued on Aug, 2011 (7,720.58 converted) 14,070 (1,790)
40,000 issued on June, 2012 46,746 (6,746)
20,000 issued on July, 2012 27,060 (7,060)
7,000 issued May, 2012 9,2663 (7,00)
So your telling me that all of these had a conversion date of
sometime between 9/5-9/28/14?
In addition to the larger ones from April & May 2014 which i'sent 6 months yet. ALL converted and sold their shares in the open market in the last 2 weeks? Or did they convert earlier and waiting for this low price to sell?
Is this your theory?
So your saying that ALL the convertible debt decided to covert in the last 2 weeks? When there was weeks here that the volume was dismal and they could have slowly sold and shares in the .05, .04, .03.
Also several of the notes are from the shell SPLI, (in 2011 & 2012 & early 2013) why would of waited until .015 cents to convert when they certainly would of had that option early in this year when the pps was .35-.40 and easily enough volume and buying pressure to absorb them?
How can you differentiate between calculated shorting and dilution?
You provided an unsubstantiated answer using addition unsubstantiated information about a reverse split?
Why would all of the convertible debt exercise that option now at the same time, when surely they could have done so when the pps was at .04 just a few weeks ago?
Can you please provide proof of dilution?
Also, a follow up question to that.
Assuming this is all the convertible debt from SPLI, why would all of those creditors choose to exercise/sell their shares now when the price continues to plummet?
Wouldn't it make more sense for them to wait until the price rebounds?
That language is absent.
1. Assuming they pay off a portion, and convert a portion, then the remaining amount may be restructured. (it's difficult to know exactly because they amount that is being payed off is still unknown.
2. They pay off a portion and take a loan to payoff the remainder with more favorable terms that don't include stock conversion.
3. If all the other convertible debt was converted and this pps drop is attributable to that, and not shorting then the outstanding shares would be much greater thus the 4.99% would be much larger also.
4. Maybe it all gets paid off absent the maximum allowance conversion within the 4.99% threshold.
This is all speculation, however it is based on verifiable information.
GLTY
Anybody who is using the word "Default" obviously didn't read the 10-Q or simply doesn't understand it and is using that language to instill fear or panic.
Regardless of what the trading price is on October 29th anything under .18 Hanover gets it at a 30% discount. If it was over .18 then they get shares @ .15 regardless of how much over .18. Hanover also cannot own more than 4.99% of the total number of shares. Using today's price that is roughly 17 million shares(o/s 343,536,386 *.0499) or $212,000K. I suppose a lot of this is moot until the exact amount of the debt paid is known.
If there is convertible debt than obviously that number would be much higher, however I'm only using verifiable numbers.
The pps. decline does not negatively impact the fundamentals of the company which does seem to be the popular belief on this board as well as twitter.
If so, I'd like someone diabolical like you working with me then. :)
It would make sense. This huge increase in volume and the giant price drop has coincided with VPOR management indicating they will be paying a "portion" of the loan off early.
Can we all agree that the massive pps decline is attributable to one of the following:
1. Massive short interest
2. Convertible debt from SPLI
3. Company dilution (no one has provided a shred of evidence to this)
If you are a holding and have a long-term horizon and the cash to keep averaging down then huge short interest is only going to fuel the reversal. What the pps is now, or in 2 months, or 4 months is irrelevant. (assuming your not a flipper, etc)
If a majority of the float gets locked up and Q3 revenue, projections, distribution, etc is huge with no indication of dilution, the Florida medical mj vote should increase our exposure and invite new money into the sector. The combination of these should provide a substantial pps increase. If Q3 is horribe, there is massive diluting, and "loans to Shareholders" increases then I imagine many of us are out a lot of money.
Also, all the people who are calling for this to be halted or investigated by the SEC is in my opinion a microcosm of society as a whole. People consider themselves geniuses when their penny stock or investment makes them money and take all the credit, but look to blame a person or entity when they lose money and take no personal responsibility. These are the same people who are spewing about Dror's past, and calling him a criminal. I don't know a single person who has been in business for themselves for any extended period of time who hasn't been sued. I have found that people love hiding behind the security of the internet and social media where they believe their actions and statements have no recourse, and often they don't. This only perpetuates people to make claim-less accusations without any type of verifiable proof to back them up.
My thoughts only.
Another IHub poster who forgets that all prior messages are visible.
Should I go back and copy and paste some of your recent stock forecasts?
Make enough predictions and some will inevitably turn out right.
Do you have any information about how there determining the franchisees/Locations? I'm located approximately between Harrisburg and Philadelphia and there is only 1 vape store near me and it's very low budget and sketchy at best. I contacted VaporGroup by e-mail about a week ago indicating I would be interested in opening one in my area and I wanted more information/details but have not yet heard anything to date.
I honestly believe this is a lot of the convertible debt issued by SPLI, that was converted to shares and the hard pumping was paid for by those with the convertible debt to try and get a better price upon their exit. (can't prove that) Perhaps some is strictly market manipulation, or shorts (however it is very difficult to short a penny stock). Either way the direction of the company is nothing but encouraging.
I have faith.
Good Luck to you.
Your problem is your most likely trading with money you can't afford to lose. Your letting the stock price dictate the companies worth when the inverse is true.
I'm down 25K on this stock in the last few months, but I'm not worried because I understand the stock market is a risk and I'm "ok" with that.
If you don't want to assume risk, buy a CD or better yet gobble up .5% in a savings account (is it that high?)
Your obviously in a situation where your letting emotions rule your trading perspective and nothing could be more unprofitable in the long term.
I'm very comfortable taking shots at making money with the potential to lose it. You can be wrong a bunch of times in the market, but to make a fortune you only need to be right once.
Just my thoughts about your constant bashing
Pika has many posts in last few months claiming that he has bought and sold several times. Of course on each trade he turns a profit. So many people on here must be ignorant to the fact that old posts are all visible and easily to find with a simple search.
Neither Burton or Pika have ever demonstrated a shred evidence about this company being a scam, or similar.
It makes me laugh that so many are quick to blame people for their losses. Sure losing money sucks, but nothing has fundamentally changed with this company and therefore I'm holding.
If your expecting a detailed or logical response from Pika about why he believes it will go sub penny, your going to be very disappointed. That doesn't mean it will or won't, but he has no divine insight, if so why would he be on the message board of a stock that he has no financial interest in?
Everyone has a motive to be posting here.
I'm long almost a mil shares after today and I'm going to "vent" with "The Vapor Box" and sleep like a baby.
Don't you love all the new doom and gloom investors that appeared on this board at the exact same time as all these paid promo's?
I got about 750K shares and not worried a bit. Will keep accumulating as I can. Current pps is immaterial to me.
I appreciate being upset about losing money. I'm down about 20K.
However, you should only sell because you feel that fundamentally this company is in trouble.
There are differences between a stock being down and beaten and a company
on the verge of bankruptcy, etc.
It sucks losing money, I can't deny that, but this is only the beginning of a massive emerging market, and a company that in its infancy that is doing everything it has said it would up to this point.
Sell because you don't believe in the company, not because your frustrated with the stock price.
Good luck to you.
Why are you here then?
I never understood why people would bash a stock that they don't have
or are not interested in buying.
I can't wrap my mind around it.
It seems to me that too many people are on here trading with money they
can't afford to lose, and then panic sell and bash immediately after.
The "debt" scares you? Do you know how to read a balance sheet?, or any
financial information for that matter?
This is a company that has been operating less than 1 year in its current form and is already in the phase of debt reduction.
There are many other problems that I would highlight before the debt.
However, the company is rapidly expanding both sales and distribution networks. Don't invest with money you can't afford to lose, especially in a penny stock that is in a emerging market.
The loans to Shareholder is my only concern with the company.
All the other moves have been beneficial in my opinion.
Not sure if you listened to Dror on PotStockRadio a bit back but he indicated that they had no intentions of long-term retail outlets (brick & motor) but used this path initially to demonstrate the feasibility of the Franchise model. I believe that because of their high operating margins it gives them considerable flexibility in pricing and only strengthens the franchise potential. People need to also consider that this company has only been operating as such for under a year.
Q3 will be huge in either direction. It will prove that the stores in Florida have been successful, the new sales force is rapidly expanding their market, and the Hanover debt has been paid (or partially paid), or perhaps none of these come to fruition and the stock will return to triple zeros. Only time will tell, however I have about 700K shares and don't plan on selling, possibly adding as I can. I'm in my late 20's and won't get rich unless I take risk (and a lot of it) :)
Just my thoughts.
There weren't flat revenues q over q. The first quarter included the revenues from American Smoke. Where as the 2nd q did not. Meaning in order to get a true indication of what the growth was we would need to know what part of Q1 revenues were attributable to American Smoke.
A part that does concern me is the "Loans to Shareholders"
He should not be using the companies cash as his personnel piggy bank.
The date of that report is May, 2009. I believe that report is more a generalization of the e-cigarette industry and not product specific. However, I still think it will be interesting reading. Thanks for the post.