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Sorry, that was sec XV A.2.b not XV A.1.b
Distributions for allowed claims that would be payable to subordinated unsecured claims shall be reallocated to the holders of senior unsecured claims until holders are satisfied in the 'Allowed' amount of such claims.
Couldn't cut and paste the paragraph so I had to hunt and peck it out on the keyboard.
re: linda1 and stockbum9
Q: If they are indeed class 5, and the class 3's need to be paid off first, do the 3's need to be paid up to the 17.4% recovery rate or all the way to 100% for class 3 in your opinion? In other words would the 5's get paid once the 3's get their 17.4% recovery fulfilled?
A: Class 3 needs to paid up to 100 % of Total Claim Value.
The Guarantee/Prospectus for the CTs does NOT say that distributions to the CTs can be reallocated to Senior Debt and Liabilities however it does say that Senior Debt and Liabilities have to be paid in full first.
Note from POR p.129 sec XV A.1.b: distributions for allowed claims that would be payable to subordinated unsecured claims shall be reallocated to the holders of senior unsecured claims until holders are satisfied in the 'Allowed' amount of such claims.
I know the trustee has changed but what about JPM/Chase?:
From LHHMQ prospectus:
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/806085/000104746904010912/a2132819z424b2.htm
Perhaps this is why JPM is holding Lehman's 17 Billion Dollars:
There are five trustees of the trust. Three of them, referred to as regular trustees, are officers of Lehman Brothers Holdings. JPMorgan Chase Bank will act as the property trustee of the trust, and Chase Manhattan Bank USA, National Association will act as the Delaware trustee.
Rights Upon Termination
Upon any dissolution, winding-up or liquidation of the trust involving the liquidation of the subordinated debentures, the holders of the preferred securities will be entitled to receive, out of assets held by the trust, subject to the rights of any creditors of the trust, the liquidation distribution in cash. Upon any voluntary or involuntary liquidation or bankruptcy of Holdings, the property trustee, as holder of the subordinated debentures, would be a subordinated creditor of Holdings, subordinated in right of payment to all senior debt as set forth in the subordinated indenture, but entitled to receive payment in full of principal and interest before any stockholders of Holdings receive payments or distributions. Because Holdings is the guarantor under the guarantee and, under the subordinated indenture, has agreed to pay for all costs, expenses and liabilities of the trust (other than the trust's obligations to the holders of the preferred securities), the positions of a holder of preferred securities and a holder of the subordinated debentures relative to other creditors and to stockholders of Holdings in the event of liquidation or bankruptcy of Holdings would be substantially the same.
Previously posted by micmac (#86)
Judge Approves Creation Of Lehman Asset-Management Unit
23 minutes ago - Dow Jones News
Lehman Asset Management Company just approved by Judge Peck
Only 3,000 shares available to short
http://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/trading/ViewShortableStocks.php?key=lehjq&cntry=usa&tag=United+States&ib_entity=llc&ln=
Js' in tight hands?
revisions: (JMO)
Par 7: prorated valued --- prorated value
delete -- Your Honor has given A&M great latitude in hedging and investment activity to either preserve or grow asset value. Equity Interest holders believe your decisions were prudent. However, it does remind me why LBHI filed for bankruptcy in the first place. Lehman bet the farm on real estate and lost. Their newest strategy is to double down. In the case of Equity interest this is our only possibility of ever seeing any recovery. (Shorter is better)
Par 8: I will simply laundry list --- I will supply a list
Given all of these factors -- delete (and) -- it comes to no surprise that Creditors are willing to wait.
Par 9: delete --- As you can see we are in a classic chicken versus egg scenario.
re: DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT
I cannot commend you enough Uhlmant.
If we are granted this equity committee, it will be because of Judge Pecks' insight of the facts here. Market conditions are still improving and LBHI claims are falling. If he sees the numbers and trends are even slightly in our favor, we will prevail.
I was a Mirant shareholder as you were of Lehman and it was re-listed under a new symbol after filing for BK. So think positive.
I also think that my acct manager mentioned something about Lehman assets being sold/transferred to Barclays back during the collapse but that the FIF assets are still showing Lehman in the portfolio. I don't know if that (sale/transfer) would show on a docket back then somewhere or not. Maybe my acct man just doesn't understand because 'how could the Lehman FIF assets be part of a deal like that?'
So maybe I will be calling Barclays to go get them to petition for an equity committee. LOL
Yes I think a deeper look into this is needed and the internal emails will document it. I gave the lehmanequity.com info to my acct manager. And I wanted to get a 3 way call going with him and FIF to get a firm and clear answer since I am getting mixed signals. If the FIF internal wholesaler gave the wrong information to my acct manager, that could be trouble for them. I will push for the equity committee if warranted.
Update on my Franklin Income fund.
My personal account rep said he had called FIF and was told through Internal Wholesale that Barclys was a mechanism whereby FIF would recover/pay some money for their Lehman position and that the NAV is currently reflecting this. I told him there may be a conflict of interest there because Lehman is suing Barclys and I said I would call FIF to confirm. Actually more to it than that.
I was only on the phone for 3-4 minutes when the customer service rep at FIF confirmed my personal info and had my account managers name on file, then gave me a case number late last Friday and will be calling me back today. She said that she will be using internal emails to find the answer to my question of 'What is the disposition of the Lehman Bros position showing on their funds holdings disclosure, are they being liquidated, held for more recovery in value or what? and Why isn't FIF petitioning the court for an equity committee? '
So there it is, we will have to wait.
Yes, especially if they were not planning to petition the court for an EC. I'll ask.
Maybe he found an attorney that told him what he wanted to hear.
----- But then got stuck with little or nothing in the end anyway.
Copy of email to my portfolio manager:
Hello Ben,
Thank you for the birthday card.
I have a concern regarding the Franklin Income Fund (FIF) in my two accounts. I'm showing 13,898+- shares that I hold. It has recently come to my attention that the FIF has Lehman Brothers Holdings (LBH) in their portfolio.
https://www.franklintempleton.com/retail/pages/generic_content/fund_perf/port_holdings.jsf
As everyone knows LBH is in BK at this time, however, FIF has not petitioned the the court to form an equity committee. It is possible that there will be funds available for distribution to the preferred shareholders of LBH, but without a petition to the court, the chances will be much less.
I am asking that you, your firm and colleague's to contact FIF as soon as possible because April 11th is the next hearing date. Here are some very important contact numbers I would like you to call and forward to your superiors so FIF will quickly take action and not let this matter go without aggressively representing its shareholders.
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=48711958
I am sure that you have FIF in other portfolios you manage and those clients will be well served by your efforts. This is a very urgent matter. Please get the word out so we can pressure FIF to do something about putting together an equity committee and petitioning the court.
Another valuable source of information is:
http://lehmanlotto.blogspot.com/search/label/Equity%20Committee
Sincerely,
Nick -----
------
After the meeting he's in, he will be calling me back to discuss the issue. Anything anyone wants me to ask him???
We'll see what happens. "Time is of the essence" as we say in real estate.
re: "I emailed the following people @ franklin templeton."
I am calling my account manager first thing in the morning and forwarding the email addresses since he has FRIAX in my portfolio. I think he may have an inside track on how to use some leverage here since he belongs to Financial Network Investment Corp. and they are using Franklin Income for their clients.
GLTA
re: "Just got off the phone with Franklin and confirmed the holdings. In particular, the FRIAX fund that has the +1mil LEHPQ's. Unreal."
Well I had a feeling and just checked. Two of my managed investment accounts have FRIAX shares, 13,898 total so I need to get going on this. It may have some importance when I get to speak to someone or send emails. Will also talk to my account manager to see if he can get the word out.
Been busy with the b-day party prep for this Saturday/10th and wedding on July 16th.
re: "Please, please consult an attorney. You obviously need guidance."
If I want to invest $10,000, how much do you think it is going to actually cost me after I consult an attorney?
I might as well take my chances that my investment will go to zero with what attorney fees would cost.
re: He sold all of his I believe after the re-org PR!
Do you know for sure?
Did you sell? (just because you believe he did)
re: 1.9B in claims
Was that of Class 5?
'That isn't the bottom line most here are concerned with.'
So -- when was the last time you took a survey?
I hope this eases any concern on weather or not the shares are locked up or not. Remember what Coach said? 'put em away'
Just keep your sell limit orders (way above the market) active!! Which someone holding LHHMQ obviously isn't doing.
"There shouldn't be any short shares here. Those on the bid can attest to the fills below bid."
Lehmanequity.com does list the number of shares short.
And a Sell Limit order is all that is needed to trigger at a specific price.
LEHNQ shares available for short = only 2,000:
http://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/trading/ViewShortableStocks.php?key=lehnq&cntry=usa&tag=United+States&ib_entity=llc&ln=
OK thanks very much. You are very through and maybe someone on the board can break down the specifics of any future legal terminology in question.
Troy is also working tirelessly to make things work out better for us. My gratitude to both of you.
linda1, this maybe the part where you are thinking the claim will be reduced for the Capital Trusts.
"All other liabilities of LBHI have right of payment to the dividends paid to the Capital Trusts and Senior Preferreds."
What I mean is, the right of payment of the dividends to the trusts/preferreds, may not apply to the rest of the claim. IE; only the dividends due in the claim can be paid to the other liabilities.
But I could be wrong.
linda1 -- Did any of the other Class 5 claims have a Guarantee??
marayatano re:
quote: Bottom line: Trustee files for guarantee or not, you, as a capital trust holder, would still fall under the same Class. Capital Trust's right of payment is ONLY after all other liabilities of Lehman Brothers Holdings are paid.
linda1 said quote:
The 4 Capital Trusts are grouped together with 13 other Subordinate Note Claims in Class 5.
It is not exactly known yet what the total amount of Class 5's Claims are but based on my own research my guess is it is somewhere between $ 13 - 17 billion.
All Claims in Class 5 receive distributions at the same time and it may be only 10% of Total Claim Value at each distribution.
If you deduct the $ 13 - 17 billion from the $ 101,604,000,000 then that will give you an estimate of the amount of cash needed to pay off Classes 3 & 4.
So it will be about 13 - 17% of $101,604,000,000 to pay off
class 5.
Would we be better off in this Class if the Guarantee had been emphasized?
I guess the trustee thought their errors and omissions insurance would cover this little mistake. Brings a new meaning to the term BK (symbol for Bank of New York/Mellon Corp). They can boast about the hefty market cap of $38B! Oh and almost $75B in cash according to Yahoo.
For Lehman subsidiaries try the 8-K (16 pgs) filed on 3/17/2010 (Otcbb.com) for LEHJQ.
Its in Sub Doc 2, on page 4
But I could be wrong.
uhlmant re:
quote: we should retain ownership in those...if ANYONE can find them soon please let me know.
I believe it is in the February MOR under
'Lehman Bros. Inc. and Other Debtors and other controlled entities'
I couldn't copy a link. Sorry
Wait try this:
http://app.quotemedia.com/quotetools/showFiling.go?webmasterId=89753&name=LEHMAN%20BROTHERS%20HOLDINGS%20INC:%208-K,%20Sub-Doc%202&link=http%3A//quotemedia.10kwizard.com/filing.xml%3Frid%3D12%26ipage%3D6839975%26DSEQ%3D2%26SQDESC%3DSECTION_EXHIBIT%26doc%3D2&cp=off&type=HTML
Great, should we coordinate any of this with our trustee? Maybe the trustee doesn't even care if we loose out because there is no compensation in it for them.
We need to have correspondence in writing (faxed or whatever) so there is a record of what was said and by who.
Count me in for support.
Is there any possibility Hank Paulson and friends (at Goldman Sachs) had hopes of getting that business Lehman would be leaving behind?
If there was any inside information that was exchanged, it would have added a lot of very volatile fuel to the fire. That's why cell phones are used so much these days -- it doesn't leave any evidence of what was in a conversation.
And oh yeah, AIG got all the help they needed yet they had all the same kind of paper Lehman did, so what excuse is there for having rescued one but not the other??
Every time it's over 25 pages I get anxious.
Thanks linda1. So all the Capital Trusts would need to see is about 1% of that $101,604,000,000 or $1.2B to be fully paid right?
I'm wondering what the value of what's left of Lehmans' subsidiaries are worth these days. And those (il)liquid assets?? A little time is what is needed for us recover from that last financial whammy that hit us.
Plus -- that is the variable ( X # of $) I'm thinking, not a set amount, one that is more than enough to pay the Capital Trusts. Think positive!
God Bless you and all on the Lehman Boards this Easter.
You are all in my prayers
Thanks for that phone number linda1.
Before I call though, I think the Total Claim Amount for Class 5 will stay the same. The word 'distributions' here sounds like interest payments or dividends. 'Distributions' could also mean assets recovered by LAMCO over a period of time in a functional market environment.
As we have been seeing, there a lot of duplicate claims that will go away and that is probably why the extended filing date, for A/M to clean up the books.
I think what you are saying is there only X amount of dollars for distribution. But X is a variable in my opinion.
The trustee has a 'fiduciary duty' to represent us --(da). It probably isn't possible for them to amend the claim and check the 'Guarantee'. So can they be held responsible for our undo loss and misrepresentation if this is the case??
And if it was intentionally done --- WHY??
We need the trustee to answer our questions and concerns directly!!!
Who is at the trustees' helm???
We are the shareholders!!!
Linda1, let me also refer you to the "Lehman Brothers Lives " website:
http://lehmanlotto.blogspot.com/2010_03_01_archive.html
I just saw this posted today, it may clear up some things and is also a great source of info.
linda1, I can't answer your your questions with 100% accuracy going forward. You are pretty sharp and I would just like to give you a simple answer out of all the debate here.
I am thinking there is still a lot of negotiating to do since lawyers way overstate their claims no matter what. Plus the markets are somewhat functioning again which has allowed more liquidity. This is quite a big pie to slice but it seems A/M is attempting to make it an even bigger pie if the vultures would back off.
We can only speculate on what will happen or what the true meaning of all the dockets are and there will be a lot of theories of what they mean. I am no genius but will look further into your reallocation question for some clearer picture.
RE: docket 7920
This looks like Lehmans attempt to set up shop and start to recover assets that are sitting around collecting cobwebs. The market crashed for those instruments and investors that don't understand them are way off on the sidelines looking the other way. This could be a golden opportunity.