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Based on what?
RDG,
I think the courts are going to give CPRK a hard look as they are duty bound to do so; however, the bottom line is that CPRK has no track record of production or profitability. Emergency funding will continue in small amounts as to protect CPRK assets, but I do not see the courts approving funding for operations. Chapter 7 is coming--just a matter of time. Nothing happens quickly in BK, but I don't see a judge playing with more investors, employees etc. lives by putting this train wreck back into business. I respect you RDG, you have been fair, but you need to think this through.
That is definitely "Just Your Opinion". I and others disagree 100% with your sentiment on CPRKQ. The emphasis here is on the Q, as in this company is in BK. For now chapter 11, but 7 is coming. Waltey, IRS, and first will be the only winners.
Has there actually been a report produced by Mr. Rice to these ends, or are you just surmising?
RDG013,
Everyone has a price. The question is under what terms are they willing to lend, and at what cost to current creditor position. I think you will find that the Judge will not easily approve any DIP financing for items outside of requisite emergencies. Secured guys will fight it tooth and nail for the same reasons they didn't agree to the intercreditor agreement. I doubt you will see any substantial amount contributed anytime soon. IMO, it will not happen at all. Also, as you know, there is an order of things in BK. Certain positions are paid first. I will not argue with you on this point any further because honestly we don't disagree. I think you simply misunderstand my position. Anyway, Good luck in the coming days. I hope the pps jumps and you break even, or at least minimize your loss. Take it easy RDG.
Well Richard, seems like a pretty wild accusation. Personally, I think the whole PN bribing creditors thing is garbage. This is a throw it against the wall and see what sticks strategy. It is all about diversion, and for some reason people are buying it. Everyone is trying to explain away the obvious answer as to why CPRK failed, so let me recap:
CPRK failed because Dotson spent millions of other peoples money on the wrong equipment (60 plus million). CPRK failed because Management valued nepotism over compentance. CPRK failed, because it's CEO blacked out entire months of his life during a critical time for the company as a side effect of pain killers perscribed after his back surgery. CPRK failed because it's CEO had no clue how to manage and track money. CPRK failed because it did not pay it's bills. CPRK failed because of gross incompentance, and the inabiltiy to admit the same and get help early on. CPRK failed because it treated it's creditors with disrespect and disregard.
This garbage about PN getting in the way of CPRK obtaining financing is ridiculous. Are you telling me that PN somehow had a connection into every potential lender they went too? Are you really going to argue that this one potential issue kept CPRK from getting LTF for 2 years? I also highly doubt that creditors colluded in any actionable way with PN that can be proven. Even if they did, proving it without money trails and documentation is going to be near to impossible. My guess, none exist because there was no collusion.
Whether anyone wants to admit it here or not, there is a very real possibility that CPRK will go 7. I will say it again, IMO, the only winner here will be Waltey, the IRS, and very most Senior creditors. You need to look at the facts and the track record. The past will determine the future. Think like a judge. Liquidation will keep more poor dumb investors from getting hurt. Conspiracy theories and best guesses will not sway a judge. This mill never made a cent of profit. Lot's of people were hurt. All facts easy for a judge to identify. Judges err on the side of caution. They don't want more people hurt. They will not risk it.
I know, I know, The Judge approved DIP financing, and why would he do that if it were just going to end up in 7 anyway. Okay, great, but was it enough to do anything but buy time for the judge to make an educated decission? But, but, We have CPRKSA, and we are doing so much. Again, I wouldnt expect anything less, but will it make a difference. I will be very surprised if it does. The question you have to ask is will a judge risk allowing a company with no profitable track record continue on to raise additinal monies, and potentially hurt additional lenders and investors while at the same time putting it's current creditors in a worse position. I dont think so. Anyway, I hope I am proven wrong, but I dont see it. GLTA.
Sleep, I know Reg. We live in the same town, and know alot of the same people. He has nothing to do with PN, and doesnt want Chapter 7 anymore then you do. Sounds like you have been screwed as much as the rest of us by MD, MS and the gang. Fact is, the only winner here will be Waltey, the IRS, and very most Senior creditors. This thing is going Chapter 7. If it doesnt, I will be very surprised. You need to look at the facts and the track record. The past will determine the future. Think like a judge sleep. Liquidation will keep more poor dumb investors from getting hurt a second time. Conspiracy theories and best guesses will not sway a judge. This mill never made a cent. Lots of people were hurt. Judges err on the side of caution. They dont want more people hurt. They will not risk it.
I agree.
I have heard the same thing for two years.
RDG,
1st lien can still sell their note to whoever they want at anytime they want. PN can make a deal to go away. The judge cannot control what the creditors do outside of how they collect against CPRKQ.
Sleep,
Show me a contract where it says that in the case of default and bankruptcy the senior creditors don't have the option to settle with whoever they want. The note I have seen was fully transferable. That is they could sell it to whoever the hell they wanted too. I have not seen a contract that bars them from settling with PN. My guess, based on conversations with reliable involved folks, is that PN will settle with the senior creditors in some way fashion or form over the dispute regarding the first position. May be that PN purchases their position.
Also, RDG, my understanding is that the senior creditors have their own professional witnesses that will provide testimony to make the case that the mill cannot be profitable without a significant investment of time and money, if at all. As such, the senior creditors will claim that allowing major DIP financing will only prolong the inevitable and put the senior creditors in a worse position. They will proceed to beg for relief through liquidation in Chapter 7 in order to cut their losses. IMO, CPRKQ will have to settle with the first in order to get the money they need to move forward in any real way.
You keep saying that the IRS is "primed". I agree, but only for a million. Not so much that senior guys cant walk with their principle. That is all they want. We are all done as far as I am concerned. I agree with Reg.
Okay Nate, show me the numbers. Let's see a P and L certified by a third party showing how profitable the Mag sales were. BTW, neither I nor Reg mentioned Mag; however, now that you bring it up I don't believe they sold Mag at a profit either. Let's define profit, profit is what is left after all expenses are paid. If the mag were profitable, we wouldn't be in chapter 11 now would be.
Sleep,
What has changed? The only thing I can see is now we are in chapter 11. Like the Regulator stated, CPRK has not proven it can process any type of ore profitably. Has something happened that I dont know about? If anything, things look much worse now then they ever have. What makes you think otherwise, and don't tell me Marcus wasn't just their for the sushi again. That ship has sailed whether you know it or not. According to my sources the Chineese, are not even in the picture at this point.
I am hoping CPRKQ can avoid Chapter 7, but that is what the secured creditors are pushing for. Atleast the most senior secured creditors. They want this nightmare to end and dont care who gets burned anymore. I hope they dont succeed but JB is not helping the situation with his low ball evaluations. BTW, the change of venue was not good for anyone but the secured guys.
Are you kidding me with all of this MD garbage. The guy was to messed up on pain killers prescribed after his back surgery to even know what was going on. Under oath, he admitted to having blacked out entire months while he was CEO. Total garbage. We need this guy as far away from the steering wheel as possible. In every sense.
Please. Odds are still against shareholders, and not by a small margin. I would take vegas odds all day long before wagering a dime on CPRKQ and JB giving the shareholders a red cent. Aint gonna happen folks. Focus your time and attention on going after those reponsible. The rest is pointless IMO.
Reality is finally setting in around here. No one pumping or propagating outlandish BS. That said, time to go after those responsible. 30 individual law suites against MS, MD, Horton, Barlow et all would send a real message. Don't let these people lull you into a false sense of security only to have them pull the rug out from under you yet again. Let's send a message. Organization is over rated. The more law suite that pop up the more motivated MS will become to do the right thing.
The case will made that current management will never be able to make cprk profitable and that assets should be liquidated quickly to mitigate damages to secured lenders. They will point to past failures, deceit, lack of experience, fraudulent appraisals, misuse of funds and so on... They will suggest that allowing reorganization under current management would further harm their positions and draw out the inevitable. If the judge does not grant their request they will make a second motion to bring in their own management team and oust Waltey and the rest of the bums.
Secured Guys are going to try and force chapter 7. I think they will succeed. CPRK should have been treated these guys with a little more respect. There are a few of the lender participants that are out for blood.
Cowduke,
I know several of the lender participants representing the senior creditors. They have little faith in CPRK becoming profitable under current management. I would put money on the fact that they will not sign off on the DIP financing. I can also guarantee they have their own plan, and are in the process of petitioning the court to oust current management due to incompetence, misuse of of funds, etc. Frankly, I am not a shot caller, and am not a senior creditor. I did however already recoup a portion of what I was due, and did not have to put up my house to make any loan. Anyhow, sounds like you are also in denial. I will not waste my time trying to convince you any further. I was right before, I am right now. Watch, wait and see.
Sleep,
A.) You assume that the 1st trust deed didn't count on Copper King filing BK the second the notice of sale was filed. I assure you they not only knew they would file BK, but counted on it. As far as most of the lenders are concerned, chapter 11 is progress towards at least partial repatriation, but not in the way you think or want. These guys had two years in default to consult attorneys and come up with a plan. You can bet they will not be caught unaware.
B.) 200 K is small a small amount in comparison to any of the lender participants on my note, and much smaller then any of the lender participants on the 1st and 2nd trust deeds. Maybe you are referring to some of the contractors or unsecured lenders. Anyway, the amount invested bares little relevance. As you are aware position is more important. You are a shareholder by choice, and unfortunately you will bare the consequence. My guess, shareholders will be done. You are still in denial, but when you come to your senses I hope you decide to hold those responsible accountable. Not out of revenge, but because it is the right thing to do.
C.) I think you will find that the lenders are interested in becoming whole if they are able. Many of them are less then optimistic that total repatriation of principal is even possible at this point. Very few of them believe that CPRK can ever become profitable. Even fewer are willing to allow current management a shot at moving forward given the history of dishonesty with CPRK. Especially if it means allowing DIP financing that will place an additional 15 million in front of what has already been lent. You have seen this first hand, and have implied as much in several of your posts. What would you do in their situation?
D.) You are a shareholder. You are a shareholder. You are a shareholder!!! In chapter 11, shareholders lose their asses 9 times out of ten or better. It sucks, I know, but their are really no moves here. I would bet my house on it.
Anyhow, good luck Sleep. I feel for all of the shareholders out there, but it is time to face the facts.
Sleep,
You cannot make the comparison to GM. The only common attribute they share is both have filed for Chapter 11. When they filed for BK, CPRK had not produced in quite some time. They never, ever, produced an ounce of CUCON at any significant profit margin. Shareholders will be wiped out. I would be willing to bet on it. You and others are going to spend a lot of time, and money on trying to change that fact, and it will all amount to nothing. Wasted time, wasted money, and a lot of heart burn. Lenders will not agree on a plan that drags out their repatriation, nor will they accept a structured payment plan based on the possibility that CPRK can really become profitable at some point the future. They have lost all faith and will not trust you, CPRKSA, current MNGMT, or anyone else to pay them back. They are looking for the shortest solution to getting their principal back. They will do everything in their power to control how and when they are paid back. If anyone thinks differently, you are in for a rude awakening. These guys are ready for a fight, and have the deep pockets to play. Also, FYI, they don't care about interest. Principle is fine at this point. So far as any argument about them wanting the company or being greedy--just not the case. If I were you, I would let the cards fall where they may, and spend your time going after those responsible for putting you in this position in the first place. I am right, you are wrong. Same as before. Watch.
Sleep,
You are way off. The creditors do not want the company. They want their money. Period. That said, I doubt any of them believe that Mr. Bryan has any of their best interests in mind. My guess, they will file a petition to bring in their own people to run the company as to protect their interests. You can imagine what that will look like, and the reasons they will use to validate their motion. Honestly, I think they have a pretty good case given the way that CPRK MGMT has handled it's affairs to date. Is this the best thing for the shareholders? I don't know. Probably no worse then dealing with the other shady characters involved at this stage of the game. IMO, you shareholders are gone either way. There is no real hope. Hence, if I were you, I would hold these accountable responsible. Go after them hard. Make sure they are unable to do this again.
I Think we are on the same page. I am not saying to sue CPRKQ, I am saying to sue the individuals responsible. Hold them accoutable. Seek non-dischargeable remedies against them for damages incurred due to their actions.
Thunderbell,
If it can proven that fraud was committed, then whatever judgment was awarded could be considered as non dischargeable debt. That is, it could not be discharged in BK. Hence, if Southworth, Dotson, Barlow et-all, were ever to come into cash, or even get a job, one could file for supplemental order, make them declare their assets/income in front of a judge, and commence garnishing wages, bank accounts etc. The Judgment could be renewed 3 times, and every seven years. It could follow these guys around for a long time until they either settled, paid in full, or, well....whatever. If mysteriously someone close to them came into money that was a benefit to them, one could make them prove how it was earned and make the case for unlawful conveyance. This kind of constant legal action can really wear a person down. IMO, well worth the attorneys fees if fraud was really committed. Besides, if they are truly broke, they will not have the money to fight it for long anyway. Chances are, their attorneys will pull out for lack of payment. I hope anyone that was wronged sues these guys. If fraud was committed, they deserve to be up to their eyeballs in law suits. 30 law suits would break the bank pretty fast. They could end up with all kinds of problems bigger then being broke. If fraud was involved, I hope they get this and more.
Private,
Not to be a buzz kill, but I have dealt with these types before. I will believe it when I see it. IMO, 3 months from now, posters will be discussing how Mr. Bryant, and Southworth offered false hope that led them down a path they would not have taken had they known the truth. Facts are, they really didn't tell us much of anything that we didn't already know. We already knew Southworth does not want to wipe out the shareholders. Problem is, though he will be "a part of the process" (whatever that means), in coming up with a plan, he most likely will have little say in what it actually ends up looking like. Then, the senior creditors have to vote and approve. After listening to the call, I certainly hope, but am not so naive as to believe. I learned my lesson on investing on a hope it works out basis. Good luck to the shareholders. These next few months are going to be a roller coaster ride, let's hope the tracks dont run out.
My understanding is they could have got something state of the art up and running for under 10 million.
I think if he was not so greedy and so arrogant he would have taken the requisite steps to ensure the mill would operate as anticipated prior to spending millions of other peoples money to build it. What is the difference really. Mal-intent, misuse of funds, incompentance, dishonesty, arrogance, it all has the same outcome--BK. This isn't the first time for Dotson either.
Richard,
Apples and oranges, unless you are responsible for others losing millions, and millions, and millions, and millions... of dollars. You can't justify millions away using a simple analogy.
Trueblue,
That was the idea, but without the copper the operation would not be econimcal. Does not matter what they say, or said, they needed the copper to pay the bills. They knew from the get go SXEW would work for the copper. If they were competant, they would have installed it first, got operations up and running, and then when things were good, built the floatation system. They went in reverse, and put us all at risk. Dotson did not listen to several different advisors who told him it was going to be tough, and finally found one that would give him the answers he wanted. Dotson's stubborn, prideful, personality put us at risk, and it did not pay off. Narsism at is worst.
Nate,
I know you are a good guy, but come on... You know better. Dotson was/is responsible for the mess we are in. Due to his incompetance alot of people are getting hurt here. He was reckless with your money and mine.
This is simple cause and effect. If the mill was producing, then there would not have ever been a money issue. Dotson is the reason we did not produce. It was his decision to go with our current process instead of SXEW. Hence, Dotson is the reason CPRK went broke. Pretty simple really.
We did not get the money, because Dotson built the wrong equipment, and was unable to get us into production. He had the funds at one time, but blew through the money in the attempt to put a square peg in a round hole. If it were not for Dotson's greed, or stupidity, or whatever, he would have built an SXEW, and it would have worked. Ultimately, he tied Southworths hands, and destroyed all chances to bring in more cash. That is the same reason the lenders decided to file their notice of sale. They did not believe the current mill would ever work. They gave them time, and they showed no progress, and they finally shut them down. You can blame it on whoever you want sleep. Bottom line, Dotson led us to our demise with his poor decision making, and prideful attitude. That is a fact.
WOW---I just saw this RDG013. That is not right. Something is very off here.
Posted by: RDG013 Date: Friday, May 21, 2010 9:47:54 AM
In reply to: marc_1958 who wrote msg# 64845 Post # of 64951
marc, you really want to dig into something? Now that we know they voted for BK on the 13th, this purported email from Marcus to sleep on the 14th raises a very big question, since it is obvious Marcus knew when he sent this, if it is a real email:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Saving Copper King?
From: Marcus (marcus@southworth.net)
Sent: Fri 5/14/10 12:07 PM
To: 'James McCormick' (tosleepbyjim@hotmail.com)
James, you are a good man. I feel strengthened in my role here at Copper King. Your prayers do make a difference. I am trying to do my very best in representing the company and the best interests of the shareholders. We have some challenging and difficult times ahead but from my perspective, we will emerge strong and successful. Keep your head up, I do!
Classy--really??? You and I have a very different understanding of the definition of that word. At the very least, he was the propigator of MD's falsehoods. IMO, he knew more then what he now lets on. Hell, I knew better, he had to have known that what he was putting out was misleading. You can sugar coat it all you want, but I for one know better. I hope all these guys get whats coming to them.
That is like comparing apples to oranges, or even better apples to elephants. GM is a completely different animal. There is no real comparison that can be made. My guess, the judge will force a 7.
IMO, because he lied--alot. I think Cam is as bad as the rest of them. He may play innocent now, but I guarantee he knew more what was going on then any of us here, yet he continued to propigate falsehood. I am no respector of person, or position when it comes to ripping innocent people off. If you played a part, no matter how big or small, you should have to pay the piper. CAM will feel the heat. My guess, he rolls on MD and others for a lighter sentence.
RS500,
That depends on how long the office has been shut down, what Walt actually knows,if JIT actually talked to Walt and if so when he talked to Walt. All variables you did not consider. To be logical, there are more then two possible solutions. I have liked you, and like reading your posts. Let's just agree to disagree and move on from this one. Peace.
Lights are off at the office, and no one is there. It has been that way since mid last week. Don't knock Walt. He is a good guy in a bad situation. Has nothing to do with his integrity.
Sleep,
I know several of the lender participants on the 1st trust deed personally. I can tell you this much, they are more worried about just recovering their principal then anything else. Frankly, 10 cents on the dollar would do that. If you think they are not serious, think again. This is NOT posturing. This is real. They were originally promised no more then a 6 month turn around on their cash. That was up over two years ago. BK is progress for these guys. What is the alternative? NS is making claims, and pissing on their territory. What do you expect them to do. Sit back, and wait forever? Relinquish their claims to NS. I would bet dollars to donuts BK will be filed soon. I know, I know, he is not out their for sushi. My guess though, he will not get it done in time. These guys are not fooling around with CPRK anymore. Watch.