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Wecus, I want to thank-you for your mapping work. Being more of a visual learner than an audio learner I'm drawn to your board here. Pay no attention to that anklebiter, I think he/she really doesn't care about my gains/losses or about anyone elses for that matter.
deadbeat
>>So where did I state the above? We are talking about faith no? As for murder and differences in culture ever hear of am eye for an eye? Some cultures say that's OK...
You didn't say that as I recall. I just wanted to exemplify something that I find true about truth. And, your pervious post seemed like you were satisfied with just understanding and not too concerned about a quest for truth-- as though it's too difficult to grasp or for some other reason. Just how I preceived it...feel free to clarify.
>> Who are you to interpret the "Word". The "Word" is perfect, and to be taken literally, is it not? We can not pick and choose, or can we?....
Good exegesis lets the word interprete the word imo. If you want to be fair and really see what the author (God) truly says your going to have to study it thoroughly, something I'm still doing. But as for slavery what did I interpret wrongly? And just where am I picking and choosing?
>>I'd prefer to call it a quest for understanding as opposed to a quest for truth. Everyone's god is different. Your god....<<
I want more then just understanding. I want the truth. Yes, I'm sure that everyone has a different perspective of who God is and no one living on this earth has a perfect knowledge of God imho. But to say... what is truth for one person is not true for another... is to me an unacceptable statement. Truth cannot contradict itself. If it's wrong to murder for one person/culture it is wrong to murder for every person/culture. imo
Some agrue as though they have reasons not to believe God's divinely revealed knowledge or even His natural knowledge that he has placed within humans. As if they have an excuse for the day of reckoning.
>> SLAVERY and the BIBLE1
I don't believe that God ever intended slavery to be a sub-human thing. To me in biblical times good slavery is akin to our present good employee--employer relationship. We do see Jewish laws for regulating slavery but this to me is like Moses' law concerning divorce--never was in God's design.
"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"
Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." Matthew 18:7-9(niv)
It seems like at times there has to be some regulation for certain social ills.
>> I think they are twisting the same words you are twisting to meet your ends, no?<<
As I told mtnlady, I believe you have to have good biblical hermeneutics (the study of the methodological principles of interpretation) in order to have good exegesis. The quest for truth is not something that you want to take lightly.
>> re: But to not tell the truth I think would be more damaging.
Yeah, damaging to your ego.<<
Yes perhaps so, I still have my sinful human nature. I must clarify that I meant damaging to other people's souls.
>>You don't share, you shove it down other's throats....<<
You may be right. Tactfullness is not something that I consider a strength of mine. But to not tell the truth I think would be more damaging.
>> What a disgusting un-Christian like message. I think you have HUGE problems. Views like these are the cancer and terror of America. Are you and mlsoft related?<<
Perhaps you can show me in scripture just what disgusting un-Christian like message I have presented. If not I think you have a HUGE problem. By the way I'm related to you, Sarai, Zeev, mlsoft, and all other humans...remember Noah and the arc.
>>'deadbeat' 'jar' and others. I am curious. Do you actually invest in stocks? Or do you just 'cruise' the boards looking for avenues to bash homosexuals with your interpretation of the Bible?<<
I have some investments in stocks but I don't see them as more important as my investment in the truth, which I'd rather learn and share with others.
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>>I am beginning to accept the notion that many have PM’d me that you, jar others are simply ‘cruising’ the boards looking to ‘bash’ others with your interpretation of ‘evangelism’. Very sad if true. For in reality you are only pushing people away from God and not bringing them closer. Remember what Jesus said to His disciples. “They will know you by your love”. May this be true in our daily walk.<<
I believe it's those who don't tell the whole truth that are pushing people further away from God. Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. Romans 12:9(niv) Lies and half truths are not what I call good for anyone's quest for truth.
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>>I am afraid what many have told me is true. That being that discussing such issues with you, jar and 1 or 2 others on this board is truly a waste of time. Good luck and God's grace with your walk with God. And oh yes - happy investing :)<<
It is a waste of time when you try to smoother truth imho.
And yes it is a happy day for me because....Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.
"Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets. Luke 6:22,23(niv)
>>The fact that Biblically sanctioned anti-gay (anti-human) rhetoric was permitted, while anti-Sharon gov was heavily criticised is silly. Coat hangers, handicapped kid and 3 legged frogs were expressions of gross ignorance, and deserve no further comment....<<
I didn't see any anti-human/anti-gay rhetoric here. Sure anti-gay, but as an unacceptable behavior not as a anti-human thing. God loves all people but he's clearly intolerant to sin. And it's clear as to what he says in the bible about homosexual behavior. Contrary to what mtnlady has said I believe it is wrong--see my previous post. I think classifying the recent anti-gay posters here as anti-human would be a gross malignment of the truth, but perhaps I didn't read them all or correctly. I think that the gross ignorance comes into play when a person puts scientific knowledge over and above divinely revealed knowledge because of distastefulness, uncomprehendiblities, and/or other biases. As I see it (my scientific veiw point) homosexualality is often a complex, misunderstood and deep rooted problem that does present great challenges. I disagree with those who claim that it is bad to attempt to change it and akin it to left-handedness/right-handedness.
Christ came for those who are sick...prostitutes, tax collectors, and sinners.
see Mark 2:16,17
>>im also disgusted with some posters intolerance toward gays, part of the doulble standard....if its not ok to be anti semitic or speak critically of sharon and Isreal..then why is it ok to hide behind the bible (or not) and have intolerance for gays....im directing that to mlsoft and others and also to zeev as you are the moderator. Much like the Jews, the gays have been persecuted thru history..in some ways more than Jews/intolerated...but thats ok as long as one is religiouos....i think not and frankly i am saddened to see that view tolerated here...
If it's anti-gay it's intelorance....
I'm wondering just when is it good and right in your eyes to be intolerant. Pedophelia, Murder, Stealing.... somewhere I'm sure you are going to be intolerant. As for persecuting (harassment) that's not very loving imho, the government should do prosecutions, not lynch mobs.
mtnlady, I think that you are doing eisegesis (try to read one's views into the text) and not exegesis. I believe good biblical hermeneutics is what is needed to see the truth.
>>1. The interpretation of the word "arsenokoitais" found in 1 Cor 6:9-10 and again in 1 Timothy 1:9-10. You interpret that word to mean "homosexual" while I interpret that word to mean promiscuity.
2. The interpretation of the word "phusikos" (Strong's #5446) and "phusis" (Strong's #5449) which means "natural" found in Romans 1:21-31. You probably interpret that word to mean what is "natural" for you (I presume you are heterosexual) is what is "natural" for everyone. While I interpret the word to mean 'that what is natural for each individual'. i.e. For a homosexual being with another partner of the same sex is what is "natural" for them while for a heterosexual being with a partner of the opposite sex is what is "natural" for them.<<
Here is something that I lifted from http://www.wels.net/sab/qa/behav-gay-03.html and links for your insight.
It is true that malakoi means soft or vulnerable and that koites means bed. But that is not all that they mean.
Malakos when used of clothes means soft clothing, but when it is used to refer to a man it means soft or effeminate. Then it also became the term in Greek for a catamite (i.e. the passive male partner in homosexual intercourse). Both of the standard Greek NT dictionaries, Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich-Danker and Louw-Nida, indicate that this is not only the meaning in 1 Co 6:9, but also in many other places in Greek literature. The Bauer lexicon gives specific citations of its use with this meaning in numerous other places in Greek literature.
The word koitos does mean bed, but it also came to mean intercourse. So the combination of arsen (male) and koitos (intercourse) came to be the word that was used to refer to homosexual intercourse between males. The Louw-Nida lexicon states that the Greek language had two distinct terms for the passive male partner and the active male partner in male homosexual intercourse.
Louw-Nida suggests, therefore, that the two terms used consecutively in 1 Co 6:9 (malakoi, arsenokoites) refer to the passive and active male partner in homosexual intercourse.
In The Contemporary Parallel New Testament which has eight NT Bible translations in parallel columns, six of the translations (NAS, NCV, CEV, NIV, NKJV, and NLT) translate both of these terms as referring to male homosexuals. The KJV
has "effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind. The Message paraphrases "use and abuse sex."
Thus the NIV is in complete agreement with what the Greek dictionaries say these words mean when they refer to people, and the NIV is in agreement with many other translations that translate these words as referring to male homosexuality. It is only people who do not want to accept the fact that the Bible says homosexuality is a sin who try to say that the meaning of these words in 1 Co 6:9 is not
I would also like to note that God ....wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.1 Timothy 2:4(niv)
The Savior who invites sinners, "Come to me, you who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest" Matthew 11:28(niv). Jesus' words also apply to those who find themselves burdened with the sin and guilt of homosexual sins.
Not everything in Leviticus is Ceremonial Law. God's Moral Law is also there
>> Oh! It's all clear now. That quote from the bible explains it all. <<
Well it is for me...Truth isn't one of those relative things that is subjective to a person's own view.
>> Truth? In religion there is little truth....<<
Jesus' words..."Everyone on the side of truth listens to me." John 18:37(niv)
.... "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth." John 17:17(niv)
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>>As for blemishes of nature - It's part of the evolutionary process. Not all creations are perfect.<<
I see little bit of evolution (small amounts--naval oranges) but the so called macro evolution theory cannot be a good theory since it goes against God's word.
>>Hate cloaked in religious doctrine is the worst, an abomination, imo. I think we saw some of that here too but that is just my opinion. <<
I agree, But it's also my opinion that there is a lot of hate for the Truth on this board.
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>>To say we have handicapped children because of "sin", and make a comparison to "3 legged frogs", is disgusting. If one were to "grade" hate, that sentiment is worse than antisemitism but again, my opinion...<<
Sorry I haven't been reading every post...but just why/how do you explain these blemishes of nature?
TIA
>>What does Hitler, Saddam, or and unfaithful husband have to do with homosexuality? If there is a connection, perhaps you could explain??.... <<
The little/tiny honorable judge in my mind (conscience) won't let me use the excuse "god made me with this trait....or that way". If it is a legitimate excuse what stops others from using it for their notorious behaviors? Does anybody have to hold themselves accountable for their behavior or can they just blame it on the Creator?
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>>This is a conversation I would suggest you have with the parents of a handicap child...... The suggestion that this is related to worldly "sin" is absolutely repugnant, imo... And you call yourself a "Christian"??.. Talk (or words) are cheap, I suppose.....<<
Perhaps I'm having a little trouble understanding your perspective here. I don't see anything too revolting here off hand but then I'm coming from a very different perspective. To me it was never in the Master Architect's original plans to have such blemishes of nature (if I may call them that) as spina bifida, blindness, deafness, or neurological impairments ,or even 3 legged frogs. As I understand it these blemishes of nature will be changed in the heavenly afterlife to a glorified body. Wish I could explain more but it's late and I need some sleep.
Good day/night
>>You equate homosexuality with murder? What a novel concept!!<<
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My view of this "God created him that way" notion is confussing if not illogical. To use "god created me that way" to justify ones behavior is to blame God for the vice and the resulting tribulation. If that's the case why blame Hitler, Saddam, or the unfaithful husband.... after all can't they justify it with "god created me with this...or that way"?
Is it/was it God's will that a baby be born with spina bifida, or blindness, or deafness, or neurological impairments? Not in my book, these are a consequences of sin being in the world and which all creation (including the 3 legged frogs) waits to be delivered from.
Why does God permit such situations to exist? That's another topic.
It's very sickening to see mankinds inhumanity to man. Those murders did not glorify God in that act IMO. I think of the groaning mentioned by Paul sums my feelings here quite well...
For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies...Romans 8:20-23(niv)
My hope is in the next life...so pitiful for those who hope for a groan free life in this world.
Off to my day job.
>>This WAS his "nature"....
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I don't get it.
Because a person is born with a certain dispositions why does that excuse their behavior?? If I was born with a quick temper would that be an excuse for destroying/killing? No, it would help explain my behavior but NOT EXCUSE it!
>> I don't doubt the Word has been altered thru the course of history, and a volatile and political history, at that. That's not surprising.
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Just how much do you think it has been altered?
Is god's will for mankind unknowable?
Are there contradictions in it or are they just uncomprehendible paradoxes?
Does truth condradict it's self?
I find that the mentioned "literalist veiw" taught in some churches is quite agreeable with me. And that the many differing interpretations arise from the devils work--lies and half truths (much like he use on Christ in his temptation in the wilderness. Matthew 4:6-7)
When people claim that certain parts of the bible are corrupted I feel like it's a repeat of "The serpent in the tree" (garden of Eden). ...He said to the woman, "Did God really say,'You must not eat....Genesis 3:1(niv) It seems to be an effective trick to cast doubt onto what God really says.
To me Truth speaks for itself. And this truth rings the loudest to me--Christ being raised from the dead shows that his perfect life and sacrifical death was acceptable to Almighty God. I have found much comfort in that and I sincerely believe that there isn't another religion out there that can match that--in a god who DEMANDS PERFECTION and who has such UNFATHOMABLE LOVE that He provides what us humans could not.
Abraham believed the same as I, that of the PROMISED MESSAIH. Paul explains ...What does scripture say? "Abraham belived God, and it was credited to him as righteousness" Romans 4:3(niv) That's how Abraham was saved just like NT believers are. He wasn't saved because he followed the Torahnic ceremonial, civil, or moral laws, but was saved because he believed it the Messiah. The same can be said of Moses and all other OT believers.
>>What if Messianics are right in their belief that the text of the NT has been corrupted by history and conflict within Christianity?<<
I would say that it would have been the biggest scam in the entire human history and Evangelic Christians are to be pitied more than all men. imo
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>>I'm not saying that they're right, but they were first.<<
I won't say they are right either and I'll say that most likely they weren't 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th. It wouldn't supprise me at all if these people that Rav Mikha'el speaks about didn't appeared in history books until well after Islam
did 622 A.D.(C.E.)or even into the 20 century. But, I'm not into western history very much SWDIK.
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>>Their religious view is based on the continuity of the Bible as a whole -
Old & New.<<
So do my religious views. I don't see any (dis)continuity. Jesus Christ was the long awaited Messiah. He fulfilled completely all that was prophesied about the Messiah in Old Testament times. It's all one continuous history.
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>>They believe that their belief in Jesus as Messiah requires Jewish tradition to be maintained.<<
That is unfortunate in my view since all of God's requirements of the law were fulfilled completely in Jesus Christs.
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>>They believe is the message of the NT, as it is consistent with the OT, but they believe the NT text has been "corrupted".<<
They must believe that the "New International Version" translation of the Holy Bible is very extremely corrupted. Makes me wonder just how many pages would be left once they took all the corruption out.
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>>What if they are right, and the Christian Rights interpretation of Scripture is flawed? What does that do to the literalists movement?<<
I won't go into that hypothetical question now or maybe not ever, time is too short for that. But I will state that what I find in the NIV, KJV, NASB, and so many other Bible translations is that same feeling that Peter says ...
"Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God." John 6:66--69(niv)
WHAT ELSE IS THERE? All the other religions that I know of REQUIRE, REQUIRE, REQUIRE. Nothing is required in being a Christian everything is provided for--divine providence. The best things in life are FREE--Salvation is a gift, that means it's FREE. I truely believe it's the Truth that has converted me.
deadbeat45
>> What Conservative Protestants
Believehttp://www.beliefnet.com/story/80/story_8029_1.html
. Salvation
Salvation is granted by the grace of God alone, through faith in Jesus Christ
alone as Lord and Savior--not through "works" such as moral behavior, good
deeds, and generally not through sacraments. Some believe that once saved, or
born again, always saved....<<
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I for one believe it's by grace (God's unmerited favor) alone that I am saved.
Paul's letter to the Ephesians states
.... For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from
yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which
God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2:8-9(niv)
>> I suspect if a conclusion were that simple, or cut and dry, the argument would not be 2000 years old....<<
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It doesn't surprice me that the augument goes on and on. The gospel is offensive to natural (unconverted) man who thinks that you have to do something to please God. Just like the pharisees believed that you had to follow such and such laws in order to be acceptable to God. Jesus does NOT want just deeds, He wants the heart/attitude to love Him as it was in the beginning--garden of Eden. If he has the heart the deeds will follow as a beautiful thank offering to Him. That's why He live a perfect life for us (we couldn't) and paid Gods wrath for our sins (which we couldn't do either). Simple but offensive. Paul says..." 18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."[3]
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. I Corinthians 1:18-25(niv)
>>Jesus never referred to himself a "Messiah" or "God" either. He referred to himself as "One with God", saying these were not His Words but the words of the One who sent Me, etc
Jesus does refer to himself as the "Son of Man" and I know from Matthew 26:63-63(niv) 63But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ,[Messiah] the Son of God."
64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." that he claims to be the Messiah. Mark records the same ...Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ,[Messiah] the Son of the Blessed One?"
62"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." Mark 14:61-62(niv)Luke records Jesus' word before pilate 67"If you are the Christ,[Messiah] " they said, "tell us." Jesus answered, "If I tell you, you will not believe me, 68and if I asked you, you would not answer. 69But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God."
70They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?"
He replied, "You are right in saying I am."
71Then they said, "Why do we need any more testimony? We have heard it from his own lips." Luke 22:67-71(niv) Also Jesus affirms Peter's confession 15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[Messiah] the Son of the living God."
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,[3] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[4] will not overcome it.[5]Matthew 16:15-18(niv) I find it warming that the Almighty came to earth as a humble human calling himself the "Son of Man" associating with SINNERS, yet at the same time retaining His title as the Messiah.
"When the righteous prosper, the city rejoices;
when the wicked perish, there are shouts of joy. Through the blessing of the upright a city is exalted,
but by the mouth of the wicked it is destroyed." Proverbs 11:10-11(niv)
It's clear in scripture that calamity is the result of sin. All sins carry a consequence imo. I believe that the government has it's role and the church has their role and each does well in fulfilling it's own role. You can't legislate morality but OTOH you can't maintain good morality or morale if you suppress the Truth. I think that our society has gone more from the practice of 'freedom OF religion' to 'freedom FROM religion'. It's almost to the point that you dare not mention the 10 commandments in school or any other public place. Creationism can't be taught in public schools (and I'm not sure that I'd want it to be taught because I'd want to be sure it would be taught with all sacredness as it does in my church) but evolution seems to be elevated above everything else because it's not considered "religion" by the government (where I feel it is a religion to a great many people--your not accountable to your creator because you evolved and can choose what want, believe what you want, and feel guilt free).
I believe one of the greatest down falls of the so called right wing is that so many of them carry around this so called decision theology where they claim that they have obeyed the single law of accepting Christ. Where I find in scripture that "...no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.I Corinthians 12:3(niv) My conversion is the work of God's Holy Spirit through His powerful word I can take no credit for it. It's like they think His word of Truth isn't powerful enough to convert the non-believe and that they have to help by legislating/lobbying for it (my feelings of course).
I hope you are right...Go Linux
>>Don't sweat it, jb. The entire argument is wrought with contradiction and hypocracy, and gross religious intolerance, which happens to be the the "highest" form of bigotry, imo.
Such a simplistic interpretation reduces God's Law, ....<<
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. It is my opinion that there are many out there who are an enemy of the Truth both inside and outside the church. And many of them are probably smarter and more of a deep thinker then I am. But then I don't believe that God won't work with the simple. I find that sometimes it the simplest things that speak the most loudly and persuasively. I believe that God in His wisdom choose the simple, the weak things, and the lowly things to reveal himself. "But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things -- and the things that are not -- to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him."I Corinthians 1:27-29(niv) Ignorance is not bliss but with knowledge come greater accountablility.
>> I have puzzled about that passage and have come to the conclusion that if it could be literally true that God would condemn over 5 billions to Hell for eternity because they did not accept Him during their mortal life what does that make Him? It makes Him what he is condemning.<<
Thanks for sharing your view. It's a conclusion many draw but then that doesn't make it correct. I won't advise anyone to mold God to their taste but rather question what makes their tastes the way they are. Our mortal life on this earth is precious and we can not afford to make a wrong conclusion in this matter as we can in some other matters. To me "scare tactis" carries the connotation of manipulation so I rather call this a warning from my deep conviction of what is true. There are many who find it offensive that God won't accept them the way that they are, but that's how the nature of a perfect God is. Noone who has 1 sin can stand in His presence. But the beauty of God is also His unfathomable love. He provided what we could not. He sent His only son (Jesus--the God/man) to live the prefect life that we could not and paid the penalty for the sins of the would world. As Paul states to in his letter to the Roman beleivers "For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." Romans 5:19(NIV)
>>mlsoft, When you go around touting your belief that you know the only path and if others do not follow they and their families will burn in eternal hell, what do you expect? Sheer arrogance is what you expouse.<<
With all due respect I don't believe it's sheer arrogance that mlsoft espouses. Rather, a deep conviction and a desire to share that Truth with others. To be overbearing isn't the way that the truth works in converting the heart IMO. But to neglect to tell the Whole truth because the recipient might find it distasteful is to me like being silent when the uninformed think the light at the end of the tunnel ISN'T a freight train, though you are convinced it is.
A differenet prespective for sure, I don't see God as cruel but as just and loving. I can't see the whole picture (which may cause consternation in me at times) but I trust what he says. I can't comprehend the Infinite--if I could I would be as God.
Off to my day Job
>>A translation of a translation of a translation of a word of mouth story of some ancient stories supposedly gathered by who for what and edited by who for what purpose.. I personally believe that it is impossible to believe any of the translations of the "Bible" as the word of "God", much less as a literal roadmap for anything. <<
I believe that the Bible was transmitted with a high degree of accuracy. The Dead Sea Scrolls exemplify this quite well. I believe God is watching over his powerful word and a person does well to follow it.