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The Debtors’ calculation is wrong for the following two reasons and the reserve amount should be no
less than $337 million:
They seem to be going at this from all angles. I'm obviously biased but I like what I read here.
In the time it took me to write my comment you've already posted two.
On Kccllc Ed Mintz files a pro se objection to the por. Rather than me inaccurately summarizing it, it's worth reading. He says he filed it because he's received no notice that a Broadbill class action has been certified. Aside from the leagl arguments he disputes the por figure of 184 million and calculates an adjusted recovery of 282 million.
The 363 sale to JPM of our rights and interests breaches "numerous provisions of the warrant agreement."
Once again, our side is the one that so obviously makes sense.
He does a great job arguing for us.
Congratulations Jared! You got my vote.
Signature,CIT Group and Charter all preserved nol's in chapter 11. Charter and CIT extinguished common.
Good article on the preservation of nol's:
http://www.law.com/jsp/nylj/PubArticleNY.jsp?id=1202462976324&slreturn=1&hbxlogin=1
Signature Group Holdings LLC touted its "business model" for Fremont as "one that generates a predictable, growing, and recurring earnings stream…" Signature asserted that such "stable earnings…are ideally suited to utilize the net operating loss tax carry forwards for the benefit of Fremont's shareholders."
Also - Today Ambac delisted - is trading today ABKFQ. Will try and preserve 7 billion in nol's.
I think if it gets down another nickel or so I may buy some. I don't think anything's changed for dime since the examiner's report.
For wamuq holders I think it's time to throw in the towel. The shot for the common was with the examiner and it's over now imo.
Br I won't bore you any further. You're far too sophisticated an investor for me. Good Luck.
Irish - I agree. I think the odds of the common being paid are very slim. It's most likely worthless.
Of course, it is trading at three cents. I can see how some might say it's worth a shot at that price. Me, I think it should be cheaper.
I never owned much. I did make a small sale last week and own an inconsequential amount.
Maybe it's a positive that they have no real assets. Creditors may get very little in liquidation making reorg more attractive. But, I doubt it.
Two positives: they apparently have very little real assets.
And they lost a ton of money. If only they had lost more we might have some real value here.
Fremont NOL's were 695,469,659 which " could yield a tax benefit in excess of 200 million". That's from:
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0813421/0813421080618000000000010.pdf
Nol's can be carried forward for 20 years according to this doc. Present value would be discounted so that 200 would be worth something less. So their nol's were a factor but I think the balance sheet was a bigger factor.
Corus nol are 650. Maybe they're worth 150? I don't know.
I think this comes down to the 250 million fdic tax suit. And I'd make Corus the underdog in that one.
Jared - SGGH was Fremont general.
All their info is still on kccllc under Fremont.
I haven't looked at much but they had competing plans. I think they probably had some real assets other than nol's.
I would love to hear what you come up with.
I hate to be the party pooper here but I'm not feeling positive about corus. All of these failed banks had nols. That's why they have the Q.
I'll also add that I have a limited understanding of all of this.
Thanks Billiam. I guess I see how this could work.
I have to think about it and right now I'm just confusing myself. Thanks for sharing your ideas.
Once the sponsor pays creditors 40mm shares how is it the case that "PLAN SPONSOR GETS
$314MM in assets less a settlement with the FDIC ($109MM) total $205MM. $650MM in future NOLS, worth in cash $250MM"
But the plan sponsors owns nothing at this point. The creditors own the 40 million shares which means they own the assets and NOLs.
The greater the number of shares the sponsor keeps the less attractive it is to the creditors.
It's likely that I'm missing something but this doesn't make sense to me.
Enterprising Investor - Have you looked at corsq? I'm wondering if there are any similarities between fremont and corus. Other than chapter 11.
Go Broadbill. I have a feeling that whoever has been buying it lately has been buying it on the strength of Broadbill's argument. I think the odds of the examiner putting equity in the money were always slight.
It seems to me that if we fail with Broadbill, or if we don't get the full amount there should be a class action against the fdic and JPM. I know Mintz was thrown out but I think for not being a valid class action.
I don't like seeing the price lower, but it seems to have firmed up and I think our odds haven't changed all that much. That said, I can't say I've ever really understood this.
Bluzie - Doesn't it have to do with section 382 and ownership change?
An “ownership
change” for purposes of section 382 occurs when the percentage, by value, of stock of a
corporation owned by one or more 5% shareholders has increased by more than 50 percentage
points over the lowest percentage of stock owned by such shareholders at any time during a
three-year period (or since the last ownership change).
From: http://bmcgroup.com/restructuring/Docket.aspx?ClientID=231
Document 10
Dime holders were to receive 85% of the payout. 15 to wamu.
FDA Website shows approved?
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/Scripts/cder/DrugsatFDA/index.cfm?fuseaction=Search.DrugDetails
bkshadow - Thanks. Please keep posting. I wish I could add something useful but I can't.
CORSQ - Any opinion anyone?
Jared,Ralph,Bluzie - Corus This is the dime board but I know you guys know corus.
I'm not sure what to think of it. I know that NOLs are worth something, but all of these banks have nol; that's why there in bankruptcy. When equity has to retain a 50% stake I'm not sure how the common gains in value when there's really no other value besides nol's. SGGH is an example of one that worked out for common holders. I'd like to find more, but the fdic list of failed banks doesn't break out the public ones, and I'm not having much luck searching for a list. That's an incredible list to look at by the way.
I've always been amazed with the internet, but lately I've been noticing that searching is still lacking. Any search turns up more garbage than worthwhile information. I've tried the usual search engines but they're all pretty similar.
I had to look back at old statements yesterday and saw my position in dime when it was trading at three cents. I'm glad I bought them on that drop but of course i sure wish I'd bought more. Oh well. I know I don't want to start throwing money at cheap stocks looking for the next dime, although I did throw a small amount at cors.
Meanwhile, there are buyers for dime now. I think all signs are encouraging.
How's that for rambling?
Going back to Aug 09 I found this:
"This has Buyout/aquisition all over it, without the FDIC coming in."
Sorry, but I always have a hard time with cryptic quotes from supposed insiders.
That's sure to make me some friends here.
BR - forgot about about that. Thanks.
Does it concern any of you that there doesn't seem to have been any "real" buyers or new holders in a long time? I mean large holders. There are no filings for anyone taking a big position. I'd like to see some confirmation that someone thinks it's worth owning a few million of this. It's not like this is so obscure. It's I think the seventh? largest recent failure.
I've taken a small position but I don't know. I'm ok with somewhat of a crap shoot, but I'm wondering if my odds are any better than the lottery.
errett - Thanks for the information. It was a big help. And great job with the calendar.
Jared - Jones Day were good blokes when they were working for us, but they went over to the enemy - the dark side. Remember the statement that they'd won a 350 million dollar settlement for their client JP Morgan? But yes, they did a good job.
Hello Ralph and board. I've tried to do as much reading as I can before asking something stupid but I can't help it.
I see they're trying to recover 250 million from the fdic. Would that 250 give value to the common?
The nol's of 600 million are the incentive for a sponsor to propose a POR that gives value to the common. Correct? I know present shareholders would have to retain 50%.
I see that that corus cites the Fremont example in the document errett references at the top of this page. I wonder if aside from the nol's, Fremont and corus were similar or if Fremont was somehow completely different. The Fremont court documents are still on KCCLC. I see Signature was one of five competing plans.
Is Friday the day for a plan sponsor to come forward?
That's all I can type.
Hey Jared. I was over on the corsq board and I probably took ten minutes to respond to your posts and then deleted mine.
I agree with 100% of what you said. In fact I couldn't figure out what point I agreed with most. I deleted mine because I didn't want to jump into the board with politics.
It just gets me upset anyways.
I'm reading into corus.
Sorry guys. I just edited out my post.
Wampq up over 10% and volume in dime.
And Ralph, I'm more confused than ever.
Is there a connection between this scam and Econnect?
I was just searching for econnect wondering whatever happened to it and found a post here. ECNC was some scam.
Wamu up. JPM "may seek" money from fdic to cover lawsuits. I guess the speculation is that jpm is trying to recover money it will owe to wmi.
Just speculation but while the examiner is examining, JPM is saying it may owe 6 billion from lawsuits. This is interesting timing.
Good post from the wamu board:
XOM Member Profile XOM
It may be the $6.5 billion capital contributions -
That was the least controversial, easiest claim that WMI had as a matter of law. My bet is the Examiner asked this very question to the Debtors and JPMC wants indemnification from FDIC for conveying these funds to them.
Margin is on line in pdf at:
http://www.my10000dollars.com/MS.pdf
To the extent that any answer is required, I deny the allegations.
Jared send me an email
to bobperyh@gmail.com and I'll send you the pdf.
I first heard of it in an article that mentioned it was for sale for $1000 on ebay or amazon. I searched on my county library site and one library had it in their reference section, where it can't be taken out. I emailed the library and told them it could be a $1000 book on ebay and that they should keep an eye on it. I never got a reply. I'm sure they thought I was nuts or they didn't read it, but I thought they might want to try and sell it.
Jared and Bluzie - I thought everyone had left. I have a pdf copy of margin of safety I could email if anyone wants it. I still haven't read it. Reading a book on my computer just doesn't appeal to me.
I guess anyone who wants a dime position has it, because it's even less active than it's usual inactivity.
I've seen you all posting on the corsq board. Maybe one of these days I'll take some time and look into it. And read Klarman.
Well good luck with it.
we've mentioned Seth Klarman here in the past.
I've just skimmed this but it's good.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/37268558/Seth-Klarman-CFA-Presentation
I think I found this on Market Folly which covers hedge funds. Guru focus is similar. I've been looking at both the past few days. I'm looking for good sources for ideas.
I think our part is over with today. It's agreed that we will be part of a class action and Steinberg and Silverstein are preparing "stipulations" if i heard right. Does this concern their pay as class action lawyers? I assume they'll be paid from the award, which I see now was a good motivation for Broadbill to include all of us.
Examiner preliminary report:
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229100907000000000002.pdf
Dial-in info. Is anyone attending?
From Wamu board
LISTEN LIVE:
Dial-in at 2:50PM EST
Hearing begins at 3:00PM EST
The bridge number is:
712-432-1001
and when prompted for the access code enter:
477420980