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TATF tree purchase a complete loss? Likely,it seems. For all investors justcfrall's post darkens the already black hole that seems to have swallowed up all of our money sent to TATF, allegedly for tree ownership. His information casts a pall over our discussed alternatives to Mr. Brunner's ignoring of the promised trimming and caretaking of trees. If the TATF owner isn't taking care of the trees and he won't allow the investors to care for or remove them the investments become a total loss.
Three reasons why we should keep this TATF board active:
1- It keeps Mr. Brunner aware that his investors are not happy, are grouped and intercommunicative, and will not indefinitely put up with the lack of information about, and the problematic caretaking of, their trees.
2- It provides a locus of information for present investors, updated by investor visits to CR.
3- It gives others who have read the company website another look at what an investor might experience after making this investment.
In short, this board -- open to all -- performs a major service to investors in teak and other tropical trees, specifically in TATF.
belmontx
The Hub itself remains credible and useful.
Matt - thanks for the pictures and the commentary. Like they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. Also, your correction of the current 1 mil statement was appreciated; as you said, it was .75 mil paid out that was cited previously (for eight years) on the tatf website.
belmontx
mattyo5 -- The one million dollar payout figure has been cited by tatf for the past eight years. We have had no one tell us on this forum that they received payouts for the 7-year teak, or any other year teak, for that matter. (We do have Mr. Brunner's statement, and tree owner's confirmation, of one -- one -- person who has gotten a distribution.)
Also, how likely is it that seven year thinnings done nine years ago (for the many owners of '03 teak) and stored on the ground in wet Costa Rica could be used or sold for anything?
It is preferable for us to stay as positive as we can about our investments but we also must remain objective and continue to strive to gain honest information from this company, even though the quest has been fruitless so far.
Many thanks to justcfrall for his continuing first-hand information, much appreciation to you, mattyo5 for the valuable report from your visit two weeks ago.
belmontx
TreeOwner, I don't know whether your messaqge was meant to be one of hope or of despair.
belmontx
I've counted three people who have posted responses to Happy Tree Owner's recent entry here, questioning his noticeable resemblance to the TATF owner and his positive statements about this company. He has neither responded nor refuted any of the posts. It is very unlikely that he is a true investor, but rather, part of the unfortunate web that has been spun to mollify those who have put their savings with TATF. He speaks as the voice of the owner to all who are now so disturbed by their inability to get any factual answers to concerns about the state of their trees, the activity relative to specific thinnings and the storage or disposal of them, and the maintenance of their specific trees. Investors have given up on the promoted projections for distributions and now would simply like to know these answers. Those who have travelled all the way to Costa Rica to find out for themselves -- apparently the only way -- simply learn what has happened to their trees up to the present, but not what will happen after they leave.
belmontx
Excellent post, mountainecho, particularly this paragraph:
"Doesn't it occur to "Mr. Mills" how easy it would be for TATF to effectively mute the criticism on this board? Just post data about harvests, amounts of milled timbers, sales, proceeds, distributions by year and by type. This is extremely basic accounting information for a tree farm. (Does Mr. Mills invest in companies that don't do accounting or do, but won't disclose it?) The guessing games and recriminations that have gone on at this site can only be blamed on TATF's lack of transparency."
No single statement posted here captures as well as this why this board has been so critical of TATF. The fact that Mr. Brunner does not provide this simple and specific information tells us that the the company's problems do not originate with this forum.
belmontx
Thanks for your thorough and informative report of your visit to tatf and your trees, Mattyo5. You are a very understanding and tolerant investor. You have provided valuable updating for the rest of us. Pending Tree Owners reaction to his visit I have a few comments and questions. We, ourselves, had visited our trees at tatf a few years ago and had the kind of discussion you report. First, some questions?
The one and only person to ever get a distribution check from Mr. Brunner was a friend of his helper, Galen? And that was a personal check?
If Raleo is still being considered as an important factor in the for future sales of investor teak, didn't we hear from a former employee of Raleo that the number of employees there had dropped from a high of 70 to about 15 today?
What was said about the huge numbers of non-teak 1990's plantings that were promoted and sold to investors during the past decade?
Was Mr. Brunner able to give you any assurances that he would still own the land when the undefined future day finally arrives that your trees will be able to be harvested and sold?
Now some comments: Quite a few investors, unfortunately, invested larger portions of their savings in this company and depended more heavily, perhaps, than you on the premises Mr. Brunner proclaimed on his sales vehicle, the website. As has been said by many on this board, those projections for regular returns and early recovery of original expenditure, of course, turned out to be completely wrong, and this was learned after many trusting investors had sent their important savings to him. Another problem has been the evident duplicity of the owner's continued use until recently of his discredited statements and projections on the tatf website long after he knew he wouldn't be delivering on them, apparently to entice new investors. Add to this Mr. Brunner's stonewalling when individuals attempt to learn the details of their prospective tree thinning and harvesting, his continued use of optimistic generalities to conceal the changed situation, and his efforts to keep investors from communicating with him or with each other.
The only way to get any information whatsoever is to do what you and tree owner have done; to take a week, spend the money and go directly to the site and ask questions. Interestingly, even then the entrepreneur is unable to tell you even approximately when you will see return on investment -- quite a different story from what the reader of the tatf website was told.
I understand that many investors are reluctant to make the kind of criticisms I have made of tatf for the reason that it may further damage the company's reputation, believing that this will stop the flow of new investments therefore throttling maintenance and development of existing trees. In effect, this argument promotes the idea that we should encourage a scheme so that we, at least, will receive a return regardless of the fate of future investors -- does that sound familiar? If Mr. Brunner's millions of dollars of investor money collected so far isn't enough to support the growth and nurturance of our trees, continued sale of ever more trees isn't going to do it. My hope is that the collective force of the investors gathered on this forum will result in pressuring the owner to turn his attention to the thinning, processing, and marketing of the trees already sold so that as the market improves returns can begin. He most certainly has the capital and resources to do this.
belmontx
You say, "I and some other tree owners I know have used prior distributions to purchase additional trees." What year teak did you receive prior distributions for?
No credible source on this board has reported ever having received distributions for any of their teak purchases, going all the way back to 1993 trees. Yours would be the first report of payment; without you identifying which year plantings they were your statement is suspicious and your relationship to the owner would seem to be far different from that of the true investors.
belmontx
Enjoy your trip, mattyo5, and bring us back some some information if you can.
belmontx
just --- It seems to me that it is very important that we keep this forum alive and active. There has been no change, so far as we know, in the situation for investors in TATF. The picture is as dismal for any present or future distributions as ever.
This forum has served three quite useful purposes: to allow disappointed investors to be able to communicate with each other, sharing facts and knowledge about this company, to keep TATF aware of the level of investor discontent and how open to the public this can of worms is, and to provide valuable pre-purchase information for prospective investors.
Frequent readers of this forum need to know that the membership is alive, participatory, and well.
belmontx
Further obfuscation and spin in Tree Owners' News. It simply extends and modifies the promotional material on the tatf website in the form of an attempt to respond to this forum's demand that Tree Owners News be resumed after a lapse of years. What we have campaigned for throughout the forum -- simple factual reports on what years' older plantings are being thinned and which years' older plantings have resulted in what distributions -- continue to not be provided. We have no evidence of anybody receiving specific year's plantings distributions, and we know that, as far back as '93 teak, investors have received nothing, knowledge available only thanks to the forum. The "million dollars in payouts so far to investors" is the same number Mr. Brunner has cited ever since 2002. Now we are being asked to expect 17 year distributions, just as 13 year was to have been the magic number for those.
We can accept that market conditions were grossly mis-estimated, but it is not realistic to continue to accept that honest and specific communication will still be unavailable from the owner.
We have received far more helpful and specific information from our fellow forum participants than we have from the company.
belmontx
Fred Morgan is one of the most knowledgable and helpful members of this blog. May he continue to inform us. We have gained more on-the-scene knowledge from him than anyone else, along with the added reports from justcfrall.
belmontx
Madoff....Stanford....Brunner
None of them started their operations that way. They simply morphed into another enterprise entirely.
Maybe we'll get pennies on the dollar some day; or maybe not. Uncle Sam isn't going to be involved in this one.
Carlomagno -- Thank you for the information you have given. Do you know if any Costa Ricans have invested in Sr. Steve's trees? What government and court contacts does he have and has he or TATF been in any trouble with them? Are there workers who have been deceived by the owner? Have they made any complaints to the authorities? Did you see any of Steve's investors visiting Raleo when you worked there?
Any description of your experiences with this man and this company will be of interest to us. We all have sent this man much money and he no longer communicates with any of us. Do you know people who work for TATF on the tree farms? Is he easy to find for visitors who might want to meet with him? Does he still spend time weekly at the Raleo factory?
belmontx
A1- After reading your latest post regarding hiring a local engineer, I have had second thoughts and wish to withdraw my participation unless you get at least 15 others and the cost would be nominal. The reason is that it would be very difficult to find a local forestry expert who we could be sure is impartial. I have discussed this at length with Justcfrall who has a good deal of experience with the forestry people who work for the gov't there. It seems that we would do better to have one of us, with perhaps the help of Fred Morgan, make some sort of assessment. Photographs and measurements as Just has suggested would be much more reassuring to me than getting the professional opinion of a local person.
Also, I'm still wondering why you keep your original positive statement for purchases of ten-year teak trees from TATF on your prologue to the forum. Is it impossible for you to remove it, or do you-- contrary to all that we have learned on this forum, and to what you have written from your numerous examinations of the operation of this company -- continue to believe this?
belmontx
After reading just's post it seems to me that his plan might be the one to try first. Either way we need to take matters in our own hands.
belmontx
A1 -- Sign me on, assuming the cost can be shared enough not to add to our possible ultimate losses.
belmontx
BFL, I am also writing to the Bloomberg reporter, Tina Seeley,and providing my information about being victimized by the TATF operation and the Brunners' shady business enterprise. Our family, like many others on this board, appear to have lost large amounts of money that we thought were directed at an environmentally good and ethical business. Unlike A1 and a few others who are worried about our damaging the reputation of this company, thereby making our thin hope for returns less likely, I think our chance of recouping any part of our money will only happen as a result of collective and coersive pressure we are capable of exerting togehter.
The idea that the owner of TATF is going to later become a responsible steward who starts thinning, processing and marketing our trees has become fanciful. I say this because of my personal experience over a long period of time with this man and because 1)of all the knowledge we have gained from each other on this board, 2) of the fact that Brunner stopped all honest communication with his investors long ago, and 3)that he continues to convey the same veiled lies about investor outcomes and market conditions throughout his extensive website in order to solicit new innocent customers. A short time ago a friend of mine posed as an interested investor and responded to the company's website. The long and repeated emails he received encouraging him to buy the teak clones or the mature ten-year trees or the other varieties of plantings included all the glowing estimates for early returns from thinnings that Brunner has always made. He also received quotations from several anonymous current owners who "are happy with their purchases and have already received returns in excess of their original investments." My friend's experience was similar to yours, BFL, in the aggressive and extravagant assurances that were made, statements which are known now to be completely false.
Several ideas, including yours, BFL, have been put forward to make the truth about TATF public and to eventually take legal action against Steve and Sherry Brunner. Anything we can do towards this aim will have my full participation.
Lest our outrage be muted because of the scale of the Madoff and Stanford investment frauds and the worldwide economic slump, we on this forum must continue to provide data, express our experiences and opinions, and, most of all, formulate plans to convert our anger to action.
Steve Brunner's daily awareness of this forum, and his complete lack of providing any kind of "tree owners' news" or corrections to his website which would reflect any of his investors' concerns, claims, and experiences with him, is silent confirmation of the merit of our charges. Not only for ourselves should be pursue our case against this company with appropriate authorities, but for the sake of all the potential future investors in TATF and its nefarious operation.
belmontx
A1 -- Prospective investors beware! The third line of your prologue to this forum states that investments in 10-yr. old teak from the Brunner's is advisable, but seedlings not. Now, 800 posts later, that we have learned that virtually every investor has failed to receive thinning reports the past three years and apparently none have received distributions for the life of the enterprise, do you still believe purchases of TATF's ten year trees is a good idea? I believe I asked you this before but didn't see a reply later.
I have counted on this forum over thirty investors (almost all of the investors who have signed on) reporting not receiving any of the projected returns made by Mr. Brunner, and none who have received them. All of the people on this forum who owned '93 and later teak have told us they have received neither distribution nor informative communication from TATF.
belmontx
TATF Tropical American Tree Farms (for web searches)
matt - Isn't it pretty clear to you by now that "giving TATF an opportunity to send back money" is not going to work? Also, why ask a person to fly down to look at his trees if he has already done that and found them not good?
Your reference to "a few negative posts on this forum" is a gross misreading of the totality of its entries. There are over 500 negative posts concerning Mr. Brunner and TATF, his company; there are just a handful of positive ones. No one has reliably reported any payments anytime, nor have they told of getting any thinning reports during the past several years.
belmontx
On Jan. 10 in post #664 you posted that this had happened to your friend and TATF would not return his promised refundable deposit. Now you are saying the exact same thing happens now to you. How can this be? Are these two different stories, or the same one?
belmontx
justcfrall -- After thanking Fred for his knowledgeable info from C.R. I realized that the only other "boots on the ground" experience shared with us came from you during the past year. Those posts relating to your visits to the various TATF farms, and from your experience tree farming in Costa Rica, have kept us forum members from being completely in the dark about how to interpret the farming and marketing scenario. Now we have two credible sources for facts about the current tree farming business; facts not coming from TATF to us investors, nor from their website. We are glad you're on this forum.
belmontx
Thanks for the valuable information you are giving us, Fred.
At this point most of us wish that TATF had provided the kind of detailed insights into the growing and thinning of teak that you have given here. It appears that your efforts with us on the forum is a service and an effort to try to to protect the reputation of ethical teak and tropical tree growers in general, and not a promotion of your farms, Finca Leola, S.A. (Although it appears that your investors are on much more solid footing than we are.)
The fact that we have you to ask specific questions of, and the thorough responses you give, helps to clear some of the cloud of mystery which pertains to what should be happening to the young trees we have purchased. None of us investors know what TATF is thinning, if they are thinning at all, nor what they are doing with the results of any thinnings, but you have told us what should be happening, and what current market conditions are. In the absense of any communication whatsoever with investors by TATF, your posts are invaluable and I, among others, appreciate it. May your company, Finca Leola, and its future investors prosper.
belmontx
treeowner -- my family owns close to 3000 TATF trees, and has for almost ten years. We have had many conversations and emails with their office over these years. If you read the posts for last February through March you will see that Steve Brunner and I had many back and forths on the forum. My experience has been that almost all of the information and answers have been spin; never directly addressing our questions, nor ever providing any reports of specific payments.
I am heartened every time an existing tree owner finds this forum. There will be some good come from some collective action eventually. In the meantime we are discouraging many of the prospective investors who have been lured by the website deceptions of TATF.
As for a three-way phone call, whoever is at the other end will say exactly what Brunner said in all those posts last year, that we are defaming him with untruths and that his is an honorable operation, but no helpful information whatsoever will be given. None of us are lying, we have no reason to, we all are having the same experience with this company. Why would we make any of this up? Whatever comes from Costa Rica over the telephone will be phrased in lawyerly terms and parsed so that we will learn nothing and the owner will continue the fiction of imminent returns.
If he has anything that will tell his investors what he has paid out, specifically by planting year, and what he will be paying out this year, he needs to put that on this forum or on his website, post haste. If Mr. Brunner has any desire to get this pressure off his back, if his intentions are anywhere near ethical or moral, he will immediately issue a tree owner's news (a discontinued feature on his website), and give SPECIFIC AND HONEST answers to all the concerns he continues to read on this forum. Also, he will erase all of those creative comments on his website from mythical investors "who have already gotten back more than their original investment" or ask them if he can identify them by more than their initials. But don't hold your breath. Short of that, anything he or his spokespersons say on the phone is pure bs.
belmontx
A1, I recently re-read your introduction to this forum, written over two years ago when it was originated. It summarizes the important information and conclusions you and other contributors have reached during the 740 posts. It still contains, however, your lead paragraph which states that you believe that purchase of the ten year old teak is advisable. Inasmuch as that many first-time readers may only read the beginning of the intro before going to the posts, this statement is at odds with all that you and others have written subsequently.
Do you still believe that, or any other remission of money to TATF, is advisable? Or is it not possible to change what was once written here.?
The many detailed factual entries you have made since then have consistently provided information revealing the duplicity of this company. The entries have provided a wealth of insight to accompany the contributions of many others who have detailed their own fruitless experiences.
Like all the other investors who have reported here, we have neither received communication nor returns from purchases of trees planted in 1994 and later, including 1997 teak. Our investments have apparently gone into a black hole.
The forum is coming to the attention of more and more TATF investors and we are learning that all have had the same dismal experience. You have provided the only venue for us to learn what has happened to others, and what the truth is for investors. Without it none of us would have any idea of what the experience of other investors were. As it is we realize we have all been duped by an unscrupulous or grossly incompetent company. We owe you thanks for your continuing efforts.
belmontx
Correction -- I meant to include the word "less" in front of "helpless" in this sentence from my post #714, "I think your idea is a good one, bfl, and it would enable us to feel like helpless victims to what is becoming a scam of major proportions."
Anything that would make us less helpless would be a good thing.
belmontx
Your analysis seems to be accurate, but your choice of action, thinning and selling our own trees, would be very difficult. If this can work in any form it would have to be as a collective effort with one of us, justcfrall?, taking leave and taking charge to set up and run the operation on the scene.
The Brunners must not emerge from this scotfree. It is unsavory and hypocritical for them to use their religious faith as part of their pitch for credibility to new customers and existing investors. Hopefully there will be action we can take through the U.S.State Department and the Costa Rican government. Many forum members have large amounts of their savings in this nefarious scheme. Many victims have not found this forum or have not yet posted on it. There is power in our enlarging numbers.
belmontx
bfl, Count me in as one who would contribute to your proposal for an ad in the Columbus newspaper. I think organizing and planning, through this forum, for such an ad would be productive for the following reason: Steve is sitting on major real estate and other assets in Costa Rica. He is a wealthy man. He reads this forum on a daily basis, hurt though it must. Therefore our planning such a move could induce him to pry loose some of those assets and either make at least partial refunds to us, or begin to communicate his plans for immediate distributions based on thinnings. I think your idea is a good one, bfl, and it would enable us to feel like helpless victims to what is becoming a scam of major proportions.
belmontx
None of the members of this board has received 13 year thinnings reports nor payments. We have had posts from eight investors who own '93 teak trees and, like every other member who has invested in TATF, no matter how old their trees are, have received no returns. You are right, tree owner, joint action is needed.
belmontx
Justcfrall, I agree completely with your conclusions and think that the idea of having tree owners eventually getting together to market the lumber is a hopeful alternative to waiting in vain for Steve to answer our questions or to legal action. I read your post after I wrote my latest.
Thanks for your experiences and postings throughout the past year.
Newcomers to the forum would do well to read your previous posts for all the information about TATF you have provided and your accounts of trips to the farms.
You offer a constructive analysis of the TATF investment problem and a positive response to all the frustration expressed by the tree owners on this forum and suggest a course of action that is hopeful and positive. It, however, depends on a doubtful major premise: that Steve Brunner will change his ways eventually and begin to operate like an ethical steward of the millions of dollars he has been entrusted with.
Agreed, he didn't start out with the idea of walking away with all of the money sent to him. Secondly, we have learned that he was woefully ignorant of the complexities of the international market for teak and he found out gradually that he wasn't going to meet any of the projections he had used to sell his product. But then this is where the dark side of this man and this operation began to emerge. As you and many others have expressed, at this point he stopped communicating in any truthful way with his investors. For the past four years he has hidden behind his promotional statements, continuing to shill his "opportunities" to unknowing future customers through his website. As pressure from alarmed investors has continued to build he has stonewalled, sharing no realities with anyone, no matter how many millions of dollars were entrusted to him.
The measure of the man is in his actions. He will not communicate individually with any tree owners; he will not provide any vehicle for them to communicate with each other - he tries to control and command all knowledge pertaining to TATF. Mr. Brunner, by refusing for four years to acknowledge any of his company's problems, and by providing no direct information of any kind in the face of market conditions which have changed the prospects for tree owners, has raised and answered the Good Faith issue upon which the investors sent their money overseas. His mute answer is clear: he has shed responsibility for stewardship of their trees. His silence is saying that the owners are on their own. If he still owns the land their trees are on (and they have no proof of ownership which would stand up in Costa Rican courts) they can come down and cut, mill, sell and ship their trees themselves.
When this forum started disappointed investors hoped that Brunner's participation would lead to the information they needed. He posted answers for several months before stopping his participation. His responses were full of the same misleading promotional fluff which fills his website. There is no doubt he continues to read these entries, as evidenced by his occasional resurfacing under various alias's.
Nobody wants to ever give up on the money they sent this man but I don't think he will change his ways in the years ahead such that when demand returns for teak he would begin to market thinnings and send distributions to investors. For me, he has shown that he has escaped his responsibility for the trust and treasure people put in his hands. I don't see how, by logic and persuasion, he can be made to turn about and accept it once again. The only hope investors have would be through governmental intervention or private class legal effort. Both are dim hopes, but more likely than TATF's owner ever voluntarily working towards re-establishing faith with his investors. My hope is that eventually all of TATF's tree owners will get the information on this forum and join in a class action lawsuit which will return some or all of their investments.
In the meantime, tree owner, thanks for your analysis and proposal. May your questions be directly and honestly answered by TATF's owner; if so, it would be a breakthrough none of us has accomplished and would render my conclusions questionable -- however, we should not discontinue our breathing until the answers are given.
belmontx
Let me be the third member of this forum to ask you to provide more information regarding your friend's experience with TATF.
So far this group has been good about separating the occasional apocryphal entry from the valuable and factual ones. It would be helpful if you could give us an accurate account of what your friend's attorney learned about this company.
belmontx
This would seem to be a cautionary tale. We on this forum are concerned about broad-ranging and continuing breaches of faith by TATF, and this would be a clear example of one which happens to be in the form of a face to face promise by the owner, but to get the facts straight, a question regarding your account of your friends unfortunate experience:
When he paid in advance you say he used a credit card. Could he not challenge the charge to the cc bank and not lose his money?
belmontx
We on this forum are concerned about breaches of faith by TATF, and this would be a clear one regarding a face to face promise by the owner, but to get the facts straight, a question regarding your account of your friends unfortunate experience:
When he paid in advance you say he used a credit card. Could he not challenge the charge to the cc bank and not lose his money?
That would certainly be better than writing off seven percent of his intended purchase. It would not in any way excuse the failure of the owner to keep a promise but it would lessen the sting.
belmontx
Justcfrall -- Thanks for the info on premium mix trees and your first-hand observations from traveling multiple times to the TATF tree farms in Costa Rica. Your previous posts have also provided essential knowledge from long-term experiences with this company. This is the kind of objective and unbiased data which makes this forum so valuable for existing owners and, particularly, for prospective purchasers. Newcomers to the forum would be wise to review your earlier posts.
belmontx
Dirkas, matty05, bless his generous soul, is the only sanguine investor on this forum. He and his father have been rewarded, like all TATF's other customers, with nothing but silence from Costa Rica.
Read any month's worth of entries here and it is hard not to be convinced that any money sent south to TATF is gone forever. The lack of any communication whatsoever with present long-term investors in the face of the company's failure to deliver leaves little doubt as to the future.
Purchased trees are for sure growing in Costa Rica, but they are growing on someone else's land and, as fawtsc points out, by the time they are marketable the Brunner's will be in their nineties and, if they still own the land, will be even less disposed to follow through than now, the government and its policies will have changed a dozen times, and your ownership papers will be worth nothing. The owner has received from believers many millions of dollars (see A1's recent post) during the past 17 years and we have been unable to locate anyone who has received anything back even though they were told by Brunner's projections to expect regular and ample returns from thinnings.
His earlier posts under his own name, then through several pseudonyms, reveals that the owner reads this forum regularly. He still does not contact any of his existing investors and he continues to sell his scheme to all who are taken in by his elaborate words and numbers on the TATF website.
You are fortunate to have discovered this forum before you wired funds.
belmontx
avan -- Did you ever receive any responses from TATF in answer to your repeated and patient inquiries over the years about your investment?
belmontx