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You don't understand BK rules if you think the Administration usurped the BK System.
The Retirement and Healthcare Trust of the worker that had been paid into for Generations were never matched and GM's Financial Unit used the money to leverage its risky borrowing practices.
The Auto Company was not the problem it was GMAC that saw what the banks were doing and got into the business of investment banking instead of sticking to its core business practices. Bond holders got about 10 cents on a dollar and the unions got 40cents on a dollar because they were senior creditors because the benefits were DBO (Defined Benefits Obligations) and GM did not provide the matching dollars for the pension plans or healthcare trusts.
Don't get me wrong, what happened was a mess because GM was using the Pension Plan to boost their balance sheets as assets but the underlining liabilities were postponed because pensions never come due all at the same time. Therefore, GM was only reporting liabilities based on what it had to payout and not what was due in Total.
Now let me relate this to WMI. We have not asked the Government for any help, so they have no business here. The bank is gone and the holding company should be able to resolve its issues without any interference and we actually got a big Tax refund from the government.
The only reason am replying to your post is the over-generalization. We have several BKs resolved without a pip from the government and WMI is not an exception. Brian Rosen and the debtors are responsible for usurping the BK process by their COI and in your face fraudulent conveyance of WMI assets to JPIG and FrauDIC. There's no reason for the BOLI/COLI to be handed over but I guess in your mind the administration is pushing the button behind the curtains.
GLTY. We will never see eye to eye on the blame game but on the Pension Accounting issue I just completed that in my Advanced Accounting course so I know what am talking about.
Pension Contributions are actually assets but when the Obligations come due it then becomes a liability.
Immediately GM filed for BK it triggered the Liabilities and that's why the Unions got a higher percentage of the company because they actually paid into those plans which are senior and should have been insured. That was the managements fault. Pension assets and liabilities are bitter sweet and dangerous.
Most companies now Defined Contribution Plans which makes more sense in the new competitive world economies. DBO's were mostly set up after the great depression to help folks so that they could retire with dignity but the world has changed and individuals have to take much more personal responsibility.
Lol, you didn't debunk anything. You went off on some funny talk about CBO and how someone inserted the language in the bill but you forgot to mention that the bill had his signature and his treasury department made the money available to WMI.
I mean it's simply ridiculous to claim that someone who signed your check is not responsible for enriching you or deserving of any credit.
Like I posted, I know who stole my meat while I closed my eyes to say grace and know the person who said son I cannot give you back the size of meat you had but here's a good portion to dry your tears.
Fools watched while Billions of phantom shares were dumped on the market and bear raided people's 401K and IRA's.
Am grateful that my 401 has recovered some since the last crash and that's a FACT.
GLTY and final EOM.
Lol, you are dance around the issue talking about CBO analysis.
The FACT is we got Billions of Dollars in Tax Refunds but you want to argue how effective the entire stimulus package is.
You can argue with yourself and Fish all day long about the effectiveness and how screwed up the administration is.
FACT WMI received Billions of Dollars in Tax Refunds but the bums DEBTORS gave it away.
GLTY. EOM
Fish, just read your reply to my previous post.
Am disappointed that your talking from both sides of your mouth. You claim he had nothing to do with tax refunds and suddenly you claimed that he signed the act into law and the Treasury Dept got the money out.
I know who buttered my bread and who stole my meat while I closed my eyes to say grace.
HanK Paulson and Chris Cox watched the market get plundered and the free for all shorting of the market ruled the day.
We got $2.8B from this Administration deal with it and that's a FACT.
The POTUS already stepped in the WAMU issue.
We got $2.8B in additional TAX REFUNDS from the stimulus package. That was the exigent reason that the US Trustee applied to form the Equity Committee because there was additional money coming into the estate.
The problem is that the Debtors gave the money away. This POTUS has done more for WMI but people out of ignorance and misinformation do not realize the share magnitude of his actions.
GLTY.
Lol, Now your actually back.
Chiron, please whatever you are taking at the moment please don't stop because you are actually thinking things through.
GLTY.
Voodoo, marayatano is right.
Change in share price due to a naked short squeeze does not necessarily bring any money into the estate.
The only way money comes into an estate is through assets, revenue generation or share sales.
You are comparing share price which typically should be tied to the shareholders equity in the classical accounting equation but due to other complex reasons and this is not an accounting board share price has little relationship to the estate.
I mean, we could have speculators jump in and take this to $40per share but without strong financials the share price will be unsustainable and coming crashing back down. There are more complex equations in valuation to determine share value but am not going to start all that here.
GLTY, We are all on the same side. Am going through the responses from the EC and TPS right now.
With this new filing, the Debtors are playing with FIRE.
The Judge doesn't have to vacate or change her fair and reasonable finding. She can simply appoint a CASE TRUSTEE due to the tainting of the previous GSA by the SNH and allow the EC to continue to pursue the IT claim the SNH.
That means with a Case Trustee, the entire negotiation of the settlement can be redone.
This option is the most effective and would end this charade by Rosen and Special K.
Lol, I knew you'ld come to your senses eventually and buyback in.
The WMB payment on the waterfall is about $350M, that alone gives us a recovery of 5% if we split it with the TPS consortium.
Now the SNH are looking down the barrel of losing their $2.5B claims and disgorgement of their gains.
We are in the MONEY like Mordicai stated.
Just a matter of time.
I have serious problems with the requested mediation by Judge Walrath.
I reserve my judgement until the scope of the issues rendered for mediation are clearly stated and itemized.
If the GSA still stands as is then what is the essence of mediation. The GSA is where all the beef is. That's where all the big money and assets are tied.
IMO, If the Judge wants a thorough mediation she should have vacated her GSA ruling and allow a newly renegotiated GSA with GSA at the table.
What is the incentive for Debtors, JPig or the FrauDIC to negotiate when they are still covered by the GSA?
Exactly the system is rotten to its core but the insult to the injury is the debtors aiding and abetting the SNH to perpetrate the fraud.
I wished we had professionals working for the estate and are ready to fight for every dime and penny.
We could have gotten the following.
1. $4B Deposit.
2. $5B Tax Refunds.
3. $5B BOLI/COLI
4. $4B TPS
5. $0.25B Visa Shares.
6. $0.8B Wind Farm.
7. 10B NOL
8. Remaining Assets like WMMRC.
This is without a single out of pocket cost to JPig or FrauDIC.
IMO, If the GSA is not renegotiated, the SNH are going to go after the debtors and their professionals with a fury.
You need to understand the difference between equity and criminal court.
The BK court is not the same as traffic ticketing and speed limits. The problem with the BK court is that there are set guidelines on the process. There's a speed limit that cut and dry and if your above and the police or photo radar get you then you can either fight it in court or pay the ticket.
Now my option if your not guilty of speeding, you should fight the ticket.
The problem here is that the Debtors or WMI BOD did not fight the sale or seizure of WMB and to add insult to injury they are giving away even more assets.
You can fight your speeding ticket and we should be fighting the sale and seizure but the WMI BOD and their professional are simply aiding and abetting the FrauDIC and JPM to hide and white wash the mess.
See my new reply to Large.
GLTY.
You make my point, that Rosen The Judge ignored this because Rosie told her this was all the WaMu Bank stock that is worthless now. What could have Judge possible have thought? A company like WaMu that was over 110 years old had NO ASSETS? Of course she believed it and asked no questions.
Why is Rosen not fighting on our behalf?
Why is WMI Board of Directors not fighting for their shareholders?
Why did the WMI Board of Directors giving away the assets of the estate?
You are barking up the wrong tree. The WMI BOD and their professional are the stumbling block and not the BK system. Why did the Kostorus lie to JPM and allow the SNH hijack the settlement negotiations?
GLTY.
Large, I totally disagree with your characterization of the Judge and her actions.
First, The Debtors have to file the requisite motions and argue for her to make appropriate decisions. The Debtors have been complicit and unless she is activist judge she has no authority to file and argue our case on the estate behalf.
Second, The BK system is flawed not because the Judge made it so but that was an act of congress which setup the system with lobbyist telling them to stick loopholes in the process in the favor of creditors and sticking it to equity holders. The system is bad but that's not the fault of the Judge.
And this is for Fish and his constant berating of the present administration.
Fish, the so-called Stimulus Package gave WMI an extra tax refund of $2.6B but the debtors gave the cash refund to the adversary. That's a FACT. The same derided and *FAILED* stimulus package was the exigent reason the US Trustee created the Equity Committee because we now had more money coming to the estate. You come here telling the board that this administration is holding this BK hostage whereas the FACT is that we got COLD HARD CASH and the fools gave it away.
I don't want to get all up in your face but you need to quit with all the blaming and name calling of the administration and blame the real culprits of this debacle and that the WMI board that abdicated their responsibilities to their shareholders to an irresponsible group of professionals at Weil and A&M.
GLTY.
We have and can get the data containing historical transaction records.
They cannot divest and claim no knowledge or guilt of IT.
I believe they actually shot themselves in the foot by not actually thinking their decision through. They are at the moment obstructing justice and could actually be found guilty of securities fraud because they filed a claim against the estate and the Junior Debt tied to the WAHUQ have to be divested also or placed in an escrow account while the court reaches a final determination.
The SNH have been really ill-informed and poorly advised by their attorneys. They could have forced the debtors to vacate the GSA, stand back and allow the EC negotiate a new GSA while they hope for recoveries.
This is a mess. The Judge should have immediately called for all SNH claim placed in an escrow account.
Am not a securities expert but they may actually claim they lost a ton of money to offset all the gains the TPS attorney stated but they run afoul because the trading data would show the gains and date of sales and the losses and date of sales.
Am gonna try and do some research for a similar case where a party divests itself while under investigation of IT.
A good opinion. Like we speculated correctly on the board, the Judge gave us a lot but didn't give us all we wanted.
Watch carefully, the actions of the SNH and the EC. Gropper said they were not happy that the debtors gave more to JPM. Gropper said from his experience with the Tribune BK, that the debtors had very good basis for fraudulent conveyance claims against JPM.
The EC has the SNH by the balls. The EC might just tell the SNH give us the dirt and we would subordinate you guys and get as much as we can from JPM and pay you guys or you hand over your money and your freedoms.
The SNH have dirt on the debtors and we can get them to spill on the debtors and their professionals and we take control of the BK or get a favorable Trustee.
We have survived and live to fight another day.
Catz, I disagree with you about your characterization of the district court.
Power and Speed are nothing without CONTROL. This case need to be brought back under control. The debtors and its professionals have been very wayward and non-systematic in their attack against the adversary. They have aided and abetted the adversary and SNH.
For example, the discovery order for IT was not only restrictive, it was limited in time and scope but at the district court level, the order would have been wider and more extensive and the judge can order all valuation models and waterflow analysis to be provided to the EC.
TORT, Fraudulent Conveyance, NOL and Valuation. The district court has power to handle issues pre-BK filing. That means that the deposit and assets must be accounted for.
The issue of speed IMO is not as important as a thorough analysis and discovery of all pertinent claims and issues. We wasted 3 years already and we haven't even seen the 3.1A and decision of the deposit and NOL tax refunds. That alone tells me that the BK system is mad house and safe haven for fraudsters and a den of thieves.
Your right about some of her remedies.
1. She can apply the Federal Judgement Rate to all claims.
2. She can equitably subordinate the SNH claims.
3. She can equitably disallow the claims entirely and send her finding to the higher court.
4. She can kill the GSA and stay the BK proceedings till the Tort and Fraudulent conveyance claims are adjudicated.
5. She can appoint a case trustee.
6. She can remove the debtors and their attorneys for tainting the process and abetting the SNH and allowing the EC to take control of all litigation claims.
She has several remedies, my fear is does she have the balls. Lol
It is actually not for her to care about the 3.1A.
That's the job of the DEBTORS.
The problem with the BK system is that the Debtors basically control everything unless you find an activist judge that would not allow his/her court to be made a mockery off.
Unfortunately, the M'fers gave our cookies to the enemy after they already ate our lunch.
It's wait and see situation right now.
No she can make a ruling on IT and send her findings to the district court. This would actually give more power to our filing because it would have a factual basis report from the BK level.
She can also stay their claims pending the adjudication of the IT charges while they are under a prohibition to trade.
IMO, I think she has a lot of tools in the BK toolbox to equitably disallow or subordinate the SNH claims and let them file an appeal. She can then send a report to the district level. The SNH would be foolish to challenge us at the district level because the level of discovery would be uninhibited and quite broad.
Never know what we might find.
I disagree with your take that the securities cannot be cancelled. That's why they were fighting against Equitable Disallowance.
The court with request that the SNH tender their trading records with a full claims list and the securities value are removed as debt thereby wiping out the face value but they might get to keep their principal.
If you listen to the TPS lawyer because it's still under seal, he said that the gains from just trading was quite substantial and was a good basis to prove insider trading and the judge can disgorge all the gains too.
IMO, If the Judge wants to stick it to the SNH she would immediately request that the securities stop trading and the SNH provide a detailed 2019 disclosure and request all gains be paid to the estate and all their present claims subordinated or disallowed.
The problem is the BK court is an equity court and she might not have the rights but she can provide a report on her findings to the district court and allow the EC file charges against the SNH. She would basically ensure that creditors act properly in the BK arena in the future. The BK system has been abused and used as a safe haven for fraud and thievery.
GLTY.
Am going to agree with you that last night I had the same impression that it just doesn't make sense that the SNH would risk equitable disallowance or subordination.
My feeling is that they are either stupid or brazenly fearless.
How do you put at risk billions of dollars in potential profits or claims?
After yesterday's hearing I'm more convinced that some of the SNH managers are considering an alternative course of action either to convince the debtors to withdraw from the GSA and agree to subordination while we prosecute every single claim for maximum recovery or the Judge is in someone's pocket.
This just doesn't make sense. Why risk loss of profits and jail time after 3 years of waiting to collect?
Someone (Debtors Lawyers and Restructuring Consultants) better have very good malpractice insurance because they'll be sued up to their eyeballs for misconduct.
He did a great job proving to the Judge that she has no jurisdiction and cannot rule on a final decision until Judge Sleet here's the TPS appeal.
Relax dude. His trying to use the IT to get us in the money and control this BK. That'w when you break open other important issues right now.
TPS and others are going to go after those issues for sure.
I know. His delivery is excellent and beautifully crafted with case references.
Wow what a bad a$$
Wow Parker Folse is breaking it down for the Judge in plain simple language.
She just nailed Rosen on Materiality.
The POR is Dead.
Fish, I understand that Viva gets a little too excited with his posts.
Viva might be right about the FDIC needing to show the 3.1A because JPM is claiming they bought assets and not liabilities and FDIC is claiming that assets and liabilities were sold.
So the question lies at what was seized and what was sold? Thereby requiring the proper accounting of assets.
This is a case of FDIC and JPM put themselves in very dangerous positions.
If the Judge request the FDIC to provide the court with a list of assets and liabilities seized and sold then watch how the FDIC would either throw JPM under the bus or claim that the sale was never completed and JPM should return assets.
Lol, it doesn't work that way by them saying they got junk. If they dare make that statement in open court, they open themselves to a can of bada$$ a$$whooping.
Then the EC would say, since the FDIC and JPM claim they got junk and we believe the assets were gold, then we must have a thorough Audited Valuation Analysis and Report Produced .
They have to be very careful because if they find that WMFsb actually had $25B in raw hard cash, there was no real run on the bank then we might actually file RICO charges.
Fraudulent Conveyance charges are a given, because of the capital raises just before the seizure and sale.
If we go to DC is going to be settle or burn.
Am loving this news.
Watch the TPS consortium jump on this. How does JPM get the Trust Preferred Securities without taken the liability too. They took the assets backing the securities but do not want to pay a dime to the TPS holders.
FDIC should go ahead and throw JPM under the bus or vice versa and let workout a real settlement.
IMO,
If the SNH think they can claim that the Debtors were responsible for disclosure of the information then immediately they realized that the information had not been disclosed should not have traded.
It's just like saying that ignorance to the law. They traded and there's no dispute. They had material information that's not in dispute. The problem is the level of disclosure.
It was deceptive to be filling discovery requests for the $4B deposit when there why several term sheets showing JPM agreeing to return the money.
The Judge claimed that even if the Estate got the deposit back that the FDIC might have setoff rights which we know is not true.
I can go on and on about technicalities but there's no dispute about trades and the information received and we know that the Debtors did not disclose that the $4B was 100% ours.
The splitting of Tax Refunds is a big no no. The Tax Refund claim has to be adjudicated and tried to determine the who get the $5.6B. The idea that we are splitting the money with the FDIC and JPM is ridiculous. The splits were agreed to by the SNH and Debtors.
Catz, everything has its advantages and disadvantages.
When you look at the restrictive and limited discovery permitted by the BK court for IT, that would never happen at the district level. All trades and logs or at worst all computers and data devices can be seized to obtain the requested information.
The district court would allow EC to actually subpoena all bank transaction for any withdrawals exceeding $10Million during the so-called run. If we can prove that the FED and other major parties orchestrated the run and used the ratings agencies to beat down the stock then we can file all out RICO charges.
The BK court is fast but it's far too restrictive. We need freedom to fight every single claim and let the parties fight with appeals at the end of the day they will run out of real estate and would have to either put up or settle.
I agree a lot with you but on moving the case to a district court, am totally opposite of your views.
Another BIG issue, is the Divestiture. TPG has a pending appeal with Judge Sleet. Therefore, any transfer of Trust Preferred Securities in the POR cannot be consummated.
The issue must be decided at the district court level and that immediately destroys the POR. She cannot and has no power to decide the TPS issue.
IMO, I think she blows up the plan and GSA and appoints a case trustee and equitably subordinates the SNH claims.
Your almost 100% right but there's a major issue that everyone is overlooking.
The EC filed a motion to prosecute certain claims against 2 of 4 SNH. That's major.
If she determines that IT has been proven she has to allow the EC prosecute and that means that we leave the BK court to fight criminal charge in a district court. Knowing that WMB was headquartered in Washington state, it would not be hard to get a sympathetic Judge.
We
LOL. How do you know what the Judge told Brian Rosen?
You are here calling out people for speculation while turning around and doing the same.
Check yourself first.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
LOL.
Your talking about the SEC. The same Obama Justice dept closed down the criminal investigation on WMB. Why?
They probably found something that would help shareholders and they backed off.
IMO, What if they found that WMB had $25B in cash at WMFSB and they found that the deposit outflows were due to major institutions and not small retail depositors. Therefore, the bank was not a systemic risk and was safe.
When the DOJ ended the investigations into WMB, I said on the board that they found something good and now they backed down and why not release the results of the investigations or actually tell us why the investigations ended.
DC here we come. So we can actually file criminal fraudulent transfer charges and unjust enrichment.
GLTA
That's why you don't mess with the government.
You know for sure that they are going to find some dirt because S&P opened themselves to SEC scrutiny because of it's failures rating toxic mortgage backed securities and downgraded one of the safest securities you can invest in (Treasury Bills).
If Fish says Obama has a hand with this investigation I might agree but he does not have to actually be directly involved.
Dude, you must have a wild obsession with Obama.
Obama through the stimulus package doubled WMI tax refunds by $2.6Billion.
This kind of conspiracy is making you look real bad. Your constant talk and about the man who had nothing to do with the sale and seizure of WMB is ridiculous.
Simmer down nah.