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Agreed. Accusations were made and the judge would decide if they SNH are guilty of IT. Lets assume that the Judge says NO IT.
She cannot provide them any form of releases and we can sue them at a district court where they cannot redact documents or have a friendly judge.
This is a no win win situation for the SNH. Yea, they can get the money but might have to cough it up at the district court and we would have full trial and Susman might be working contingency and would seek maximum recovery.
IMO, I think the Judge has made a decision to deny the plan for several reasons and would prefer not to open a new line of discovery at this point in the confirmation.
There's enough ammo to bring down the plan.
Thank you. Couldn't have said it any better.
That's not true. All banks are not Ponzi Schemes.
Principle of Going Concern.
The bank through this assumption believes that 100 years from now it would still be in business. That's why the preferred shares are perpetual because a corporation is assumed to be able to live forever.
For this reason, A bank can take up long-term liabilities like bonds or raise additional capital through a complex equity system.
They only need to meet probably 7% of this liability every year depending on the coupon or yield rates.
We need to simmer down nah and not throw big words around.
Finally, Fish JPig is not going bankrupt because like the explanation above the true value of the derivatives could be the current interest rate of about 0.2% will not blowup their balance sheet. What would blowup their balance sheet is actually losing the bet and not the premium. That's why insurance business is one of the most profitable businesses in the world.
GLTY.
PS: WMMRC would be freaking profitable because home prices are still very depressed and mortgage refinancing with new mortgage insurance programs to backstop would be awesome.
Fish, IMO the only reason the EC has not made the move is that they believe that the BK court can totally disallow or subordinate the SNH claims thereby freeing up about $2.1B down the waterfall.
Thereby given total control of the case to Equity. Even if we go to DC right now, we have the debtors working to sabotage the process by holding a shareholders meeting with the same SNH guys taking control of the cheap share price and controlling the BOD.
I would prefer the BK Judge rule on the $4B Deposit, the Tax refunds and disallow the SNH claims for IT and then we can move to DC to fight for more bigger cash.
Fish, I agree. When it comes to WAMU we agree but when it comes to politics we are totally on different sides.
My problem is for every decision made in our financial system, there are political underpinnings.
We had Treasury Secretary that refused to place WAMU on the No-Shortlist.
We had SEC Chairman Cox that never brought any major enforcement action all throughout his tenure and allowed Massive Naked Shorting of the markets. The ideology that the market knows best and self regulation failed totally.
When people on my side call for regulation and capital requirements, you guys call us socialists and Marxists because we believe that reasonable regulations would have prevented the crisis or reduced the severity.
Look at what's happening today with the Debt Debate. Obama wanted the big deal with $4Trillion in cuts and $1Trillion in revenues but your side call him names and now for the first time in our history we were downgraded.
Life is a balance. The right and the left are guilty of the problems we have today but claiming that Obama destroyed the economy is not looking at root cause analysis of the problem.
GLTY.
LOL, your missing the point.
She is a Judge not an ADVOCATE.
If she was an "activist judge" she would have been after the debtors but it's not her job to get any asset list or fight for shareholders rights. The US Trustee should have given us an Equity Committee back in early 2009 or early 2008 or filed for an immediate examination due to the circumstances behind the demise of the bank.
Again, Debtors are the problem
That survival was from the Judge. She could have killed Equity off during the 1st confirmation hearing but threw us a major bone from the hearsay testimony of a shareholder Nate Thoma.
If the Judge wanted to destroy us, she could have approved the previous plan without any third party releases and the debtors would move to erase equity by paying out the creditors and leaving us with an empty shell.
Give her some credit. Nate Thoma provided hearsay testimony and the Judge relied on his charts that show increase in volume and she believed him.
You can say she is either very gullible to believe hearsay testimony of a shareholder or the professional lies of a partner of a leading law firm.
She can be so stupid and at the same time wise.
LOL Now repeat after me.
DEBTORS DEBTORS DEBTORS DEBTORS DEBTORS DEBTORS DEBTORS
Large, The Debtors filed the GS. The Debtors, JPig, FrauDIC and all the creditors argued in support of the GSA and we had the lowly EC, LTW and TPS fighting those powerful forces.
Again, If the debtors refused to get into a GSA and file to adjudicate all claims against JPig then we would have had the fight over the deposit and NOL, BOLI/COLI and other assets.
The DEBTORS are the ones that agreed to the GSA and fought to get it approved. Now that is the root cause analysis. The Judge agreeing to the debtors arguments is secondary.
The primary problem with the BK are the DEBTORS.
Large, you are not looking at the issue from the right perspective.
In root cause Analysis, you have to identify the root cause of a problem or event.
The Debtorsare the problem here. Who agrees to give the adversary even more assets after they got the bank for almost free. WMI didn't not even receive the $1.9B paid by JPM for the bank.
Put the blame where its supposed to go and we should stop all this attacks on the Judge.
The Debtors are our problem, they even gave the BOLI/COLI Assets away for nothing instead of at least agreeing to a split. Wind Farms and Visa shares were given away by the debtors.
To add insult to injury, they gave more of the Tax refunds to JPig and you think the judge is the problem.
The Judge is the least of our problem, we need to get ready to sue the debtors and their professionals.
Of course, that's why Our expert kept talking about how a sophisticated investor can do great things with WMMRC.
There's money to be made in the Reinsurance business because, for any meaningful recovery from this recession, the housing problem must be resolved.
Thanks for the info.
Agree with you but not seeing the results of the investigations is kinda shady by the justice dept.
Why not release the results of the investigations? Why just closed the criminal investigations?
IMO The justice dept found out something they were not expecting. Maybe they found the project west cash and using wire transfer and electronic subpoena and know 100% sure that we had serious cash on hand.
What are about the so-called run on the bank? Well maybe they also found that the run was orchestrated by the FED and FHLB moving their money and not the small depositors taking flight.
The justice dept is very powerful and if they wanted to make an example of the financial crisis of 2008 could have used WAMU has a case study but suddenly they found nothing LOL.
They found a lot of things that were in the favor of WMI and now covering up for the FrauDIC and JPig because, they would have had to provide all evidence in open court to prosecute the executives which could blowup in their faces and ruin the credibility of the FDIC.
$25B just doesn't disappear without a trace at a bank in America, that can happen in Iraq or some third world country were electronic is very basic and most transactions are in cash. The money has been traced and they know where it is but to save face and provide cover the Obama justice department is going to let it slide and let us fight our battle without their help of evidence.
You cannot hide assets or that amount of cash from the IRS or FBI since after 9-11. All cash or assets above $4M are reported talk less of $4B or $25B. The IRS has the schedule of WMI assets from audited financial statements and tax filings. They know who is on the titles and they know if they have been transferred and to who received it.
IMO, the justice department found something that would make the FrauDIC and JPig look real bad and dropped the criminal investigations.
We have Susman working on contingency on Tburg for 25-35% for all recovered monies estimated at $2.2B.
Getting Susman to litigate is easy. We sign on the contingency fee arrangement and we can file our claims at the Washington State district court or get back to DC were we can actually file criminal fraudulent charges.
Remember the Hedgies themselves said the $6.5B raised by WMI 6 months before the seizure can be recovered.
Why do you think Califano was complaining to the Judge without the release there's no GSA?
Any party can forum shop. We might go to Washington state and look for a friendly court that have a sour taste in their mouth.
No Third Party Releases.
The BK Court cannot grant third party releases. The BK court cannot be a refuge or escape for third parties.
Will SG sell us down the river?
Are you serious?
The Trustee for Tburg hired Susman Godfrey on contingency.
Susman is requesting 25-25% of all claims won estimated filed claim is $2.2B. That's how great law firms make serious money and fight like their's no tomorrow.
If they win that's more than $0.5Billion for Susman. You can bet they have totally loyalty to their clients.
Now for WMI, they are not in control because the debtors hired Quinn and they have not litigated a single claim against the adversary till date.
If we get this case out of the BK court, Susman would renegotiate his representation of equity and you will see them go for the kill.
Susman knows that the Fraudulent Conveyance claim alone is worth $6.5B not to talk about the Tort claim.
IMO, there's a lot of money to be made by Susman and his attorneys if they can get us full recovery.
You are right that Stern poses a serious dilemma for the Judge.
After listening again to the TPS Attorney and inserting the PSI report into the records puts all third parties in line of fire. Like you explained, Directors, Lawyers, Accountants, Rating Agencies, Goldman Sacs and the rest should be truly worried.
A&M especially should be very careful because if we have a single proof that post petition assets were transferred without the knowledge of the BK Judge, we can sue for BK fraud and Criminal Fraudulent Conveyance.
Another, issue that you raised and was raised during the proceedings was the question of the tax sharing. The Tax Sharing Claim should have been brought before the court and litigated to a final conclusion but the Debtors agreed to share a higher percentage with the adversary thereby not maximizing the returns to the estate.
We proved our case and IMO, she would do the right thing.
You don't understand the claims process.
The claims made in the findings from the investigations provides an ability for claims and counterclaims to be adjudicated.
Now I don't know you but I can file a claim against you for stealing my cookie. You have the right under the constitution to counterclaim that I stole your glass of milk. Then we can both file a proof of claim and defend ourselves against eachother's claim.
Now, the PSI could find that the FDIC action smells like roses and the EC say it stinks. The FDIC-R would have to defend themselves against our claims or file a counterclaim that WMI was worse than the rest of wall street.
We need our claim adjudicated and we would have to file discovery and request not only documents but depositions under oath.
GLTY.
Mordicai, I believe that if the Hedgies are really serious about fixing their present predicaments, they would force the debtors to pull out of the Global Settlement Agreement tonight or tomorrow morning and file an immediate motion to vacate.
That would enable a new renegotiation of a GSA or all out litigation of all claims at a Title III court with EC having the lead role by disqualifying the debtors attorney due to conflict of interest.
There's a ton of time to remedy the situation. We are at least $370M in the money because the Judge would have to disqualify the WMB claims.
Catz answered your question quite well.
Just wanted to add that there was a presentation by Quinn Emmanuel that probably showed that the Debtors did not actually intend to prosecute the claims against JPig and FrauDIC or perform any major discovery.
Based on the reasons above, IMO the EC probably wants to prosecute the claims because the debtors failed in the fiduciary/legal duties to the estate.
GLTY.
PLEASE MODS: I only have one post per day on the board. Please allow me to freely post my thought as much possible. Thanks
41% of PIERS and 21% of REIT Preferred Securities by Appaloosa and Centerbridge.
LOL I think she has enough evidence. Wait till the TPS lawyer cross examines Gropper tomorrow.
Hedgies put themselves in a very rough position.
Wow, Folse still had more than 1 hr of questioning left.
Folse is on fire and well knowledgeable about the whole scenario.
He's objections are proving to me that the cross is going to be bad a$$.
Throwing the Debtors under the bus right now.
Zellin already told the Judge he meet in November of 2008 with the SNH. The presentation during the meeting was talked about because he presented several waterfall analysis to them when there was no confidentiality agreements in place.
The attorneys for the SNH was Fried Frank.
***This is not hearsay***
Zellin accepted that he had meetings and presentations as early as late 2008.
Yea, you can bet your bottom dollar that JPig would pay more if we prove insider trading and if they were aware of the actions of SNH and used it as a negotiating leverage.
That's why it is important the IT crime not blow up.
Watch what happens in court when there's explosive evidence being thrown around. If the Judge gives the signal that She agrees that the EC can prosecute IT claims, She would notify the DOJ and the EC would file criminal charges at a Title III Court.
Am 100% sure the EC would shop for a forum in Washington State, which was the headquarters of WAMU and you can bet there have a sour taste because of the thousands of jobs lost.
JPig were the first to request disclosure of all trades by the SNH not long after their was a GSA.
IMO, They might not be talking settlement but requesting that the Debtors file a motion to vacate and pull out of the GSA for another set of negotiations for a new GSA.
My fear is that they might not be able to get Rosen to agree to vacating because he's mindset is that he can actually pull this through confirmation successfully risking the SNH's claims.
If they are found guilty of insider trading, this case would take a dramatic turn that would shake the financial markets.
We are talking 4 of the biggest hedgefunds and several reputable law firms guilty of IT and felony aiding and abetting and criminal fraudulent conveyance and BK fraud.
I have read several posts here and mostly amused at the some of the fear on the board. Zellin was meeting with the SNH in November of ***2008*** immediately after retention presenting probable Waterfall Analysis.
The Debtors are toast
Well said and explained.
Exactly, Why should she not allow the Reorganized WMI to become a going concern?
Are you kidding me. Mastando is a clown.
Just the present investors in WMI present equity would raise $160M in less than 2 weeks. I'll personally start with at least $10K not even counting what I have on ground right now.
That's exactly what I expect on the 28th for the Judge to allow the prosecution of some of the claims which immediately gives EC control of certain litigation claims.
The good thing about Rosen is that he telegraphed talking about bring back JPig, FrauDIC and MARTA claims. We should be ready to let the Judge that she does not the jurisdiction to decide those claims which immediately gets us a stay on the BK proceeding while we litigate the claims at a Title III court.
The easy way for the Judge to escape is to appoint a Case Trustee to manage the estate while we fight the claims.
It's good to have an healthy level of carefulness or concern.
I know people were a little disappointed with Seth Ard but people need to remember that being a great lawyer cuts both ways. You can be the guy in the backroom that does the analysis and cracking the code or the guy who is the greatest speaker to deliver the cross examination and closing arguments.
IMO, EC wants to attack the POR from several angles of NOL, Valuation and Insider trading which automatically destroys the GSA and puts the Debtors under serious scrutiny. They did not notify the general investment community of the same information they passed to Fried Frank and other creditors. So they are accessory to the insider trading or at a minimum guilty of not performing their fiduciary duty to the estate.
GLTY.
I'm laughing at the people complaining about the EC's representation.
Did you guys notice the question about the presentation between Zellin and Fried Frank back in Nov 2008?
He not only meet with Fried Frank, there was no confidentiality agreement between Fried Frank and their clients. Therefore, there was no ethical wall between the debtors and the hedgefunds who continued to receive information from Fried Frank and used the waterfall analysis to purchase WMI securities.
Another major disclosure was the analysis for settlement noteholders getting preferential interest rate calculation even if other creditors got the federal judgement rate.
Today was a great day for equity because the Judge should understand that at a minimum federal judgement rate should apply to the all claims which would immediately free up cash to flow to equity. Thats why Rosenfraud is now talking about certain claims returning.
GLTA.
There's no right or wrong when it comes to NOL Tax Analysis and Valuation.
NOL and Valuation is based on approach to maximize the NOL and Value of the Reorganized WMI.
You need to understand that we succeeded in making it known to the Judge that sections 382 is more favorable than 269. I'm not a tax attorney, but I can tell you that the tax code is a mess and using the 382 would have benefited the estate but the debtors jumped on the bandwagon of 269.
In the WMI valuation by Zellin, Seth Ard has put the hedgefunds on notice that they meet with Mr Zellin after he was hired and they created their own valuation models which IMO is very different from Zellin's account.
It a multi-day hearing and for you to claim that because the first day was a loss when I could can easily tell you that section 382 beat section 269.
GLTY.
That's why the GSA is being attacked from the Stern and ANICO Decisions by TPS.
The EC is attacking the POR and GSA from the following angles:
1. Valuation
2. NOL
3. Releases
4. Insider Trading
We are looking at a strategic deconstruction of the plan and GSA.
IMO, there's no room for escape unless the Judge plays dumb and approves the plan without any third party releases which is of no use. If the plan is approved and opens you to continuing litigations and that would be outside the protection of the BK court and we might actually file criminal charges.
IMO, Any material change in the POR (Value of the NOL from $160 to $10B), would immediately cause the POR 6.5 to be denied.
Any material change in the valuation would also lead to the denial of the POR.
Rosen cannot just say, oh sh8t we forgot to properly calculate the NOL, here's another adjustment, let proceed to confirmation. There would need to be another waterfall analysis, Disclosure Statement and POR.
Rosen and his crew are going to either fight the number presented by PJ Solomon and BDO or die on the sword of NOL and Valuation.
Am sure they already thought about that but they would in violation of the TPS automatic exchange agreement.
The TPS clearly states in their prospectus that immediately after the automatic exchange they become Equity Preferred Securities of the holding company.
I'm still mad at LIBR for her decision that the exchange actually happened. If she had ruled in favor of the TPS Consortium that the exchange did not happen or she had no jurisdiction to determine any action that happened prior to the BK filing then JPM would have been forced to either take the liabilities with the assets or the holding company would have moved to retrieve the assets backing the securities.
Sometimes, I think the Judge has been very inconsistent in her reasoning and analysis. On some issues, she claims she cannot act then on issues she has no business deciding she jumps in recklessly. The fair and reasonable assertion/finding is a perfect example.
As much as the TPS are a pain in the behind for equity, we need to realize that the debtors are our greatest enemy in this case.
GLTY.
I disagree with you that the worthiness of the Appeal Courts decision has no major impact on our case.
The GSA was based on the premise that the litigation of every single claim would be almost impossible and might not be in the favor of the estate because of the FDIC invoking FIRREA.
The Examiner also reached a similar conclusion about the viability of our litigation claims by stating the FIRREA was probably going to be invoked by the FDIC and that they had set-off rights to the tax refunds and WMI deposit at WMB.
IMO, this decision effectively destroys the argument that FIRREA is end all be all and the argument by Califano that no matter were Justin got his numbers from doesn't matter because the FDIC had powers under FIRREA to complete the transaction without showing or presenting any analysis about the value because as a regulator, they owe no one an explanation because WMB was a systemic risk and under FIRREA, the actions are unquestionable.
We might have a motion for standstill for discovery on JPM and FDIC to determine the value of assets received and conveyed. That would be the straw that breaks the camels back.
GLTY. Today the Foundation on which the FDIC boasted off has shifted.
Even though there's no signed document clearly stating the new date for EC's objection, we have the court transcripts when the EC requested 3 weeks to complete discovery and file an objection if negotiations failed.
IMO, the Debtors are in trouble if they are trying to use dates instead of legal arguments to block our objections.
We are in good shape. The GSA is not dead but as of today there's bloody blow from Aurelius and maybe the 3 remaining Hedgies would finish it off.
WMI must now watch their backs because they might be found guilty of BK fraud.
GLTY.
Voodoo, Biz and JH,
JPig is taking a lot of risks but the people at the most risk of jail time are the debtors and A&M.
The Hedges might just say F it, am not gonna lose all my initial investments, my gains and get jail time as insult to injury. I'll take my money and FJR and throw everything in sight under the bus.
If IT is proven in court, they are the mercy of the Judge and the Justice department. The Judge can disallow all their claims and gains over the last 2 years. To make issues even worse, they might need to defend themselves and could be guilty of RICO charges if they were instrumental in crafting the GSA.
Now to JPig, If JPig was aware of IT and used it as leverage to squeeze the GSA out, they are guilty of Felony aiding and abetting, Obstruction of Justice, Collusion and RICO.
And if the debtors were aware that's straight out Bankruptcy Fraud.
People need to be very careful in the coming days. TPS is not the enemy, they see an opportunity to fight dirty and nasty and they are going for blood.