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So this reorganized Lehman will have;
$100 bil in NOLs
435mil shareholders
$100 bil in debt of those that have not been paid like the CTs
Sounds like a plan...oh, wait..
No business
No revenues
No Facilities
No employees
Then it is just a matter of raising cash, right? Who would invest in the above. It makes no sense. You guys that talk of recapitalization and debt for equity swaps have no business sense.
Go to bed Jersey. Sweet dreams.
You appear to be talking about the NOLs. NOLs are not cash. They are not capital. $100 bil in NOLs will not pay one employee. NOLs can only be used to offset NOG's - net operating gains. NOLs are a deferred tax asset that can only appear on the balance sheet if it is projected that the company has gains to use them. Where does the funds come from to acquire space? To hire employees? NOLs can't be sold. They are just a paper entry.
"FRESH CAPITAL" is cash. Where does this cash come from?
All assets are sold, or will be with cash proceeds going to the creditors.
Who is going to be the new investors that are going to invest this capital?
Loser only has one 'O'.
I think Jersey filed his joinder in 2019. Not sure when I sent Jersey his gift, but I think more like 2021. Perhaps Jersey recalls.
https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=148680811
Much easier to do an online search than look through dockets for addresses.
You know what, Swiss, what does it matter? You are chasing your tail again!
By the way, I am starting to get very busy with my Art Farm project. I don't want you to think I am ignoring you, but I probably will and you won't see much of me. And, like everyone else here, I spend too much time here.
Lehman is dead. Nothing can revive it. Remember this from the Modified Plan outlining the liquidation below. No reorganization. No recapitalization. No debt for equity swap. None of that can happen. The trustees are under a court order to follow the plan as stated. It is very clear.
10.2 Purpose of the Liquidating Trust. Each Liquidating Trust shall be established for the sole purpose of liquidating and distributing the assets of the Debtor contributed to such Liquidating Trust in accordance with Treas. Reg. § 301.7701-4(d), with no objective to continue or engage in the conduct of a trade or business
You got 60 acres of horse farm and gardens to tend to I usually do stay dirty. Just got done hosing the mud off my boots about 30 minutes ago.
Well, I certainly was not going to send you my Lehman paperweight, vintage leather and green canvas messenger laptop bag, notebooks or hats! Be happy you got a nice pen. If you wanted to buy one it would probably cost you 50,000 of your Lehman shares if you could find a buyer. My last one, btw. Happiness starts with gratitude.
Yes, post the unredacted note. Let people judge for themselves.
With a fairly uncommon name and a state, and especially a homeowner, it is not hard to find an address in 2021.
>>From what I recall Joe had a history <<
Swiss, I sent out one letter and only to Jersey. As I recall, it was motivated by something personal that was unrelated to Lehman. Jersey use to post years ago under his real name on yahoo so I did not need the lawsuit to get his address. I sent him one of my prized remaining Lehman pens as an olive branch. If it was more he would have posted about more than receiving the pen.
I never tried to get you to join the lawsuit to get your address. It would be stupid for me to send such letters as they are easily photoed and could be posted here. Jersey is free to post my note if he wants.
What you said is a lie and you should apologize.
Deep down Jersey is a nice guy. His Jersey shore upbringing just makes it hard for him to be nice and leaves him rough around the edges. I will keep working on him.
You guys for not paying attention for the last 12 years and losing all in this trade!
No truer words have ever been said!
Happy to have gotten out in 2011. All the hope for recovery you all express now was in my head prior. But the final modified plan and financials showed no chance of a recovery.
Loser? As said by someone holding shares for over a decade that can't sell for less than a penny? And with no chance of ever seeing their invested funds again?
I have been right about LBHI from the beginning. I remember when you all where posting that you would be on the next distribution because higher classes had received their ESTIMATED total distributions of 24%.
Then it was these lawsuits that were going to get the CTs their justice only to lose at every turn.
Now, like 2good, funds will magically appear that will recapitalize Lehman and a swap of debt for equity will fix everything. Magically, as there is now no business, relatively few assets yet to be liquidated, no employees, and in the end no cash.
Lehman is no longer. It is over. Move on and start winning! See the light!
2good, Recapitalization of Lehman can not happen. To recapitalize you would have to raise capital. Right? That means new investors. I assume you want Lehman to recap so the CTs will be made whole. For the CT's to be made whole so would all the other debtors that have not been paid need to have their debt reinstated as well. Then you have all the common shareholders. Who would want to invest in a company with all the legacy debt and shareholders yet no assets except for the cash you put in?
Oh, the billions in NOLs. Well, those would be gone but to play your game let's say they stay. Well, you have a company with billions in debt, hundred of thousand of old common and preferred shareholders that greatly dilute the new investors ownership. No business. Lehman would have to start over from scratch as all the old business units no longer exist. And the NOLs can only be used to offset net operating gains which will unlikely to develop for years as using that new capital will be used to hire new employees and develop office space, and to rebuild a business from where there is none.
Recapitalization for you to say is easy. But to actually execute would be impossible. New investors would be better off just starting a new business without the legacy shareholders (and CTs) and debt, nor the NOLs.
Read what I said in context to what Cotton had posted and I was replying to.
Lehman said, ""Although there may be questions of English law and usage, it is possible that the English Court would be interested in input from this Court regarding the history and characterization of these Chapter 11 Cases, and that it may become appropriate for this Court to assist the English Court on this issue. The Court May Authorize the Issuance of the Substituted Preferred Stock"
This substitution of preferreds would be new shares to LBHI. Read the posts before and after in this thread. I was simply responding to what was said in court.
Another excerpt; "28. The Preferred Securities Substitution is akin to the allowance of LBHI Class 12 Equity Interests in the aggregate amount of the ECAPS’ notional value. The Plan Administrator already has the authority to allow Class 12 Equity Interests6 and requires Court approval primarily for the ministerial act of issuing the Substituted Preferred Stock—an act in furtherance of the implementation of the Plan but not expressly authorized by it. To prevent creditors from losing LBHI’s bargained-for entitlement to any value of the Partnership Assets, the Court should authorize the issuance of the Substituted Preferred Stock. 6 Under the Order Modifying Certain Existing Claims Orders (ECF No. 29505), “[t]he Plan Administrator is authorized to settle any and all Claims . . . asserted against the Debtors without prior approval of the Court or any other party in interest where . . . the allowed amount of the settled Claim is less than or equal to $200 million[.]” 08-13555-scc Doc 57036 Filed 11/21/17 Entered 11/21/17 18:21:29 Main Document Pg 14 of 19 12 WEIL:\96296832\22\58399.0011 Conclusion 29. For the reasons set forth above, the Plan Administrator requests that the Court enter an order in the form attached hereto as Exhibit A to permit LBHI to issue the Substituted Preferred Stock."
You ask why I wrote that. In context to the adjoining posts in the thread it is clear.
Move on Swiss. This is a nothing burger! This is also back in 2017. Nothing gained by going back in time and splitting hairs.
I think this is in context to the ECAPs, right?
No, Lehman can not issue new shares. New shares would indicate capital has been received in return.
But, there is a conflict here as I see it. Keep in mind I don't follow the ECAPs or where they currently stand. My research of the ECAPs is very limited.
From my understanding the ECAPs had a right to be issued preferred shares in exchange from LBHI if LBIE failed. I assume the thinking here is that the bigger LBHI would be more stable financially. Both failed.
So here is the conflict. Lehman cannot issue news shares as they are not raising capital. But they owe the ECAPs preferred shares. So, does the court let them issue shares as a technicality that then the ECAPs present to the court to file a claim and to be awarded a claim? (I think I saw you posted a 10A claim) Or, does the court allow the trustee to simply award a Class 10A(?) claim??
I do not know. You are trying to pin me down on something I really have no interest in to research how it all panned out.
From my understanding, originally I think Lehman tried to force the ECAPs accept the exchange of shares so the ECAPs could not collect from the LBIE estate, which would leave more residual for LBHI. The ECAPs won and was allowed to collect from LBIE. And, also got a claim in the LBHI case.
So, no Lehman can not issue more shares. But, the ECAPs situation as to new shares the courts had to iron out.
I am pretty sure I have explained or touch on this in the past.
I answered your question. I am not going to debate as I have no interest in this subject, and admittedly limited knowledge and recollection of something I looked in to briefly probably 3-5 years ago.
(spinning the wheel...) Pat, I would like to buy a couple capital letters and some punctuation.
Give me an example of fake news. Pretty much everything I post comes from the bankruptcy plan, LBHI filings, or sources like the IRS. In fact, I seldom post news.
>>THERE IS A “APPROVED” “GRANTED” MOTION FOR AN EXEMPTION TO COD INCOME. <<
Not true unless you can show the board a link to support. I did a search of "exempt" of your post for the last 3 years and nothing comes up that supports what you claim. Sure, you mention exemption or exempt many times but never have you given a source to validate.
It appears it is some falsehood that you cling to as all your other arguments have failed. False claims and insults is all you have.
*" with no objective to continue or engage in the conduct of a trade or business" *
>>NO ONE CAN HAVE THE OBJECTIVE OTHER THAN LEHMAN ITSELF! <<
Major point that you do not understand. Lehman pre bankruptcy no longer exists. There is no business. Barclay's even owns the Lehman trademark. Lehman only exists as a court ordered liquidating trust in the hands of a trustee managed by a liquidation unit of Marsal & Alvarez to liquidate Lehman's assets. Remember the brokerage was sold to Barclay's. The bank was liquidated by the SIPC. All the affiliates have been liquidated and closed. All that is left is the holding company which was only that, a holding company for these other units that are now gone.
And now liquidating the holding company assets.
There is also nothing to recapitalize.Why assume former debts like the CTs if one is putting up all the capital to build a business? The NOL's? There are none. There is no exemption from COD income to save NOL's. You don't post the exemption because there is none. The only exemption they received was being able to wait to the end of the liquidation to discharge all debts as stated in the quarterly report.
Swiss, I like a GOOD debate. Something I find unavailable in you. You lack reading comprehension skills. A few years ago I had a private conversation with a former poster here about about the prospects of every pathway to recovery mentioned here. Every pathway I explained to him was a dead end mostly by pointing out something in the POR Liquidation Trust. The modified plan is very clear about what happens with Lehman in BK. Total liquidation leaves no room for some recovery.
You keep talking about a debt for equity exchange. I have replied several times that does not work for Lehman as there is no equity that can be exchanged as the plan calls for a total liquidation of all assets (equity).
10.2 Purpose of the Liquidating Trust. Each Liquidating Trust shall be established for the sole purpose of liquidating and distributing the assets of the Debtor contributed to such Liquidating Trust in accordance with Treas. Reg. § 301.7701-4(d), with no objective to continue or engage in the conduct of a trade or business
2Good keeps talking about about the NOLs. It is very clear that there is no pathway for Lehman to have remaining NOLs, and the Lehman says as much in their filings.
Lehman has not been in business for over a decade. Lehman has no employees, and does not conduct any business what so ever that they did pre bk. And look what the plan says in 10.2 "with no objective to continue or engage in the conduct of a trade or business"
There is no debating what will happen with Lehman and what the chances of recovery are for the CTs. The pathway for the demise of Lehman is very clear in black and white. To argue about something that can not happen is futile.
And you keep talking about Lehman issuing shares or not and implying that I say they can and that they cannot. I think you are talking about the ECAP situation. I said I do not follow that closely as it has nothing to do with the CTs. The court said this as to the Wossileks case;
I thought you had researched that.
https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=148537910&txt2find=hardware
I got out in 2011 after reading the Lehman disclosure and viewing the financials showing no way the CTs would see a recovery. I made a ton of money on Lehman and other stresses debt issues and played the big short. A life altering amount. Enough that in 2009 I could retire comfortably and just manage my investments. Just kills me seeing those here that just don't get it. The financial markets offer an abundance of opportunities. Just kills me to see a young guy like Swiss in denial and missing the opportunity to learn from this situation and use that knowledge to move forward on other investments. I was dead broke in 1995. Jersey will attest to that. Over the next five years I saved $25,000. Over the next 9 I parlayed that into a nice retirement fund. I did not do that sticking with losers for a decade.
Move on Swiss!
>>YOU CANNOT PROVE THAT IT WON’T <<
Actually you can, but you ignore the facts.
Lehman filed bankruptcy. There is a court confirmed order that orders (demands) that the estate be liquidated and a plan to do so.
Lehman has no employees.
Lehman operates no business.
Lehman has no assets.
The only way LEHMAN could emerge as a going concern is if it had cash/assets still available after ALL debtors are paid in full. Like that of LBIE*. It is a fact that can not happen because everything is to be liquidated for the benefit of the creditors and anything left over not worth selling is to be donated to a 501c3.
Your argument about NOLs is bogus. Again you ignore the facts. You ignore that the Lehman administrator reports that they will all be utilized.
*Going concern only means that an entity has cash or assets. It does not necessarily means that it operates as a business.
2good, Like I said, you don't understand the process.
Assets have a cost basis. When the asset is sold, or liquidated, it creates a capital gain or capital loss (or breakeven). Capital gains are taxable. Lehman uses the NOLs to offset paying taxes on those capital gains.
There is no exemption to COD that would apply to Lehman. The agreement that Lehman has with the COD is that it will not happen until the BK is complete.
I never followed the ECAPs closely as they have nothing to do with the CTs.
As I recall there was an issue that LBHI wanted to issue traditional preferreds to replace the ECAPs in the LBIE BK and it went to court. But thathas been awhile since I looked and I have moved on , as you should.
BTW, what does it matter what happened to the ECAPs.
Got to go. Wasted enough time.
Oh, good. It is done. I have not been following. Since it is done. Why are you asking me about it now?
You questioned something I posted in 2017. And that is what I was responding too. And what I said in 2017 in speculation appears for the most part has been done. I was thinking class 12 then but I think you said class 10A? No difference. Both will see no recovery.
You know, I come in contact with a fair number of young people like yourself. Very concerning the generally poor reading comprehension skills. And reading proficiency for 12th graders is terrible. And objective critical thinking is almost non-existent. I see that in you. You should work on that. It will do you well in future years. Today students are being taught too much what to think, and not how to think.
Put Lehman behind you. And discussion about Lehman is worthless drivel. Lehman is dead.
2good, Obviously you don't understand NOL's. The creditors losses generate income to Lehman which Lehman can use the NOL's to offset that income to avoid taxes. During the liquidation process Lehman could use NOLs to offset gains on the liquidation of assets. What isn't used will be used to offset discharge of debt. But don't take my word for it. This is what Lehman says in their Quarterly Statement;
Lehman had the option to issue new preferred shares to the ecap holders. Since Lehman is in BK they would be given a claim against the LBHI estate. I am not sure how the process works. The ECAP holders may be issued preferred shares as a formality then file a claim against the estate. Either way the end result is that they will have a worthless claim against the estate.
Debt can only be converted to something that has value. Lehman basically has no assets as the liquidation trust orders all assets to be liquidated for the benefit of the creditors as to ranking.
Will you all still be here for another three years posting the same nonsense?
Transition, Swiss!
There is nothing to recapitalize. No debt. No assets. There is no longer a business. How do you recapitalize nothing? And why would anyone want to recapitalize Lehman. If one wanted to invest capital they would be better off starting from scratch and not have to deal with old Lehman baggage. And what really does not make sense, you expect new capital to come in not to have a return on the investor's investment, but to make you whole.
Think of me as Moses. Let me part the seas of your ignorance and lead you to the light. The CTs have been dead money since 2011 when the disclosure statement came out showing the CTs with zero recovery. Dead money for 12 years and you are still in denial.
You know, in the whole world investing universe there is no one other than you posters here that still think a recovery is possible.
"SEC regulation will not allow the disclosure of the future plan to avoid stock market early reactions. "
WTH did you come up with that?!
Here is what the plan administrator is charged with (from the modified plan POR)
"exercise its reasonable business judgment to direct and control the
wind down, liquidation, sale and/or abandoning of the assets of the Debtors and/or
Debtor-Controlled Entities under the Plan and in accordance with applicable law
as necessary to maximize Distributions to holders of Allowed Claims"
And how do you have a going concern with no assets?
Mellowbird, What is telling here in the Lehman POR, which is the plan for resolving a bankruptcy to the benefit of the stakeholders like you indicated, that NOT ONCE is the word "reorganize" or anything that looks like the word 'reorganize' mentioned in the POR.
Lehman is a Chapter 11 liquidation. No way can anyone except some here can read in to that plan anything other than the full liquidation of all assets for the benefit of the creditors.
These people need to move on. Reminds of the TV series 'Ghost Whisperer'. And I the angel (like Jennifer Love Hewitt) that comes to help them see the light and help them transition to holdings that will make them money.
Amazing! Over 2000 posts since I last looked. Quick search and I see I am missed. I read a dozen posts or so and I see the same nonsense is in play. Someone even wrote that he blamed me for not owning more shares. He should be thanking me!
The CTs will see no recovery. There is no possible way. Everything gets sold off. The liquidation plan goes as far has saying if assets are not sold off they are to be donated to charity. I have been posting that for over 11 years. Lehman has no money and no employees. Just a couple officers to sign checks
You all keep talking about the guarantee. The guarantee the Cts hold is subordinate to ALL more senior obligations. The more senior obligations will be over $100bil short of being paid in full. Nothing left guys. Rex Wu included a copy of the guarantee in his appeal. It says very clearly that it is a subordinate guarantee.
And I also see that WAMU folks wondering in looking for emotional support because they haven't received anything either. Anyone that says the Cts will have a payday don't know what they are talking about.
Move on folks. Use your time wisely and research some stocks that will make you money. I myself have wasted too much time trying to educate you on the BK process. I hope during that process when the Cts were still trading that I convinced some not to waste money buying these worthless shares.
GLTA.
DHC bonds-
Their 2028's have a current yield here of 6.52% but the held to maturity of 11.65%. The 2031's have a yield to maturity of 9.60% and a current yield of 6.24%.
2024's current yield of 5.1% and yield to maturity of 9.2%.
per Schwab bond page
I would much rather hold the 24's here maturing in less than two years with the 9.2% yield to maturity than the 2042's DHCNI's with a current yield of 8.97% and have the long tail risk.
Just noticed the 28's have a yield to maturity of 11.65%
I own the 2024's
$SRG Bot another position at 10.04. Sold the August $10's calls at $1.45. Bit better than what I could do in just selling the puts outright.
Thinking the 25% short interest will pt a floor under the stock. That said, volume could indicate that they already covered large positions.
Check out $SRG. They are having shareholders vote on liquidating. Stock is up 66% but still some nice upside. From Proxy "Distributions Range will be between $18.50 and $29.00 per share." Bot some at 10.08.
Read the proxy. https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/0001628063/000119312522189568/d384540dprem14a.htm
$GLP Bought at 23.13. Sold the August $25's for .35. Plus will go ex-div in early August. Current yield is 10.29%
DHC - This will be a small trade for me at 1% or less of portfolio.