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Cotton, what if someone did not hold an equity interest immediately PRIOR to the commencement date? Isn't the commencement date 9/8/08...the date of BK filing? 99% of the folks on this board did not own any shares prior to 9/8/08...what say you sir?
cheers
(c) Distributions. Each holder of an Equity Interest in LBHI (through their
interest in the new share of LBHI common stock or otherwise) shall neither receive nor retain
any Property of the Estate or direct interest in Property of the Estate of LBHI on account of such
Equity Interests; provided, however, that in the event that all Allowed Claims in LBHI Classes 1
through 11 have been satisfied in full in accordance with the Bankruptcy Code and the Plan, each
holder of an Equity Interest in LBHI may receive its share of any remaining assets of LBHI
consistent with such holder’s rights of payment existing immediately prior to the
Commencement Date. Unless otherwise determined by the Plan Administrator, on the date that
LBHI’s Chapter 11 Case is closed in accordance with Section 6.6 of the Plan, the Plan Trust
Stock issued pursuant to subsection (b) above shall be deemed cancelled and of no further force
and effect provided that such cancellation does not adversely impact the Debtors’ estates.
Hi LD,
you're right and I should have mentioned that. Shareholder services does have a link to www.irs.gov to download the w-9 or the other identity forms for non-usa investors. each of the lehmen-docket.com links for commons and preferreds have unique addresses/instructions to mail in the irs forms.
thanks again...now help us find the "liquidating trust" agreement that we think Lehman has established...LOL
cheers
all good stuff Cottonisking!
a few questions...
1. how does a theoretical dividend payment for commons work in light of per/POR all classes (1 - 11) must be satisfied in full before class 12 receives anything?
2. do you sense that all classes (1 - 11) will be satisfied in full on 10/1/12?
3. how can I help you find the plan trust "liquidating trust" agreement? I have google searched and on NY State government sites...but no luck yet.
cheers
same here...they did not provide a w-9 form. go to www.irs.gov and download the latest 2012 w-9. it's quick and easy. send it in and then kick back and relax and wait for your million dollar check sometime early next year! LOL.
cheers
Hey Cottonisking,
RE:
The two groups of legally separated assets:
1) BK estate assets are being paid out to creditors.
2) The legally separated LAMCO assets has to be building up a ton of cash within LBHI. Hopefully, the plan trust trustees and Board of Directors and SEC and Mrs. Davis (Justice Dept. Trustee) will say lets start paying dividends OBS because this cash cannot go to creditors because it is legally separate from the BK estate assets targeted for creditor distributions.
is there a detailed list of assets for these two separate entities that we can read? or maybe we'll see in after the next distribution 10/1/12?
Cheers
OK I understand that. How about the list of assets that would have been "transferred" to the liquidating/plan trust that are there to pay out the +/- $65B?
way to go hestheman! how do we find out IF LBHI has formed a liquidating trust and what assets are in it?
cheers
Thanks Cotton...very good explanation. I was not aware of the legal separation of assets that you described. That speaks volumes and clears up alot for me.
what is the scenario for LBHI/Lamco to receive the $47B due from affiliates (controlled and non-controlled)?
Also I have often read on this board that "we don't know what kind of deals were cut with creditors to get them to accept the $65B payout"...
How can there be "side deals" in BK. Any thoughts on what a side deal would look like? how does that play in the "absolute priority" rule that is often spoken of here?
Cheers to you!
I must say that it's a good sign that former LBHI employees have recently been awarded previously promised stock shares...I believe the total value was something around $36M worth. So reading between the lines tells me they are also "hoping" for a plan trust distribution...
This is one very interesting soap opera we have here
CottonisKing,
Your posts give me a tremendous boost throughout the day and I sleep very well when I read them again before turning in for the night! Tell me this though...how the heck do we get past this statement below from the POR and the recent W-9 notification thingamajig...
"It is not expected that any former stockholder of LBHI will receive any distributions as a result of its beneficial
interests in the LBHI Plan Trust."
Is LBHI just blowing smoke up the senior creditors skirts? Is this a typical accounting phrase?
If LBHI has $40B+++ residual income after the +/-$65B BK pay-out, how does the above statement fly? If you are seeing there will be +40B residual, why does LBHI not see it and say... "we expect that former stockholders will receive distributions as a result of their interests in the LBHI plan trust".
Man I want to believe and only think positively...are we overlooking something? is a comma (,) placed in the 250 page POR in a section that essentially means we all get zilch? It just seems crazy that LBHI and creditors agreed to a $65B pay-out and then LBHI has +$40B left over...and we all are the recipients.
Please tell me to go have another glass of wine, shut the F up and wait for your good reply.
Thank you brother!
Thank you Brother TooGood! One other thing I wanted to mention to the board was about the W-9 forms to LBHI. They did mention that they would notify everyone (preferreds and commons) within 75 days after each year end of any gains, losses or distributions. So we'll hear something between January and March 2013.
GLTA!
Sorry about that Cotton! I actually used 15 posts yesterday and could not reply to you last night...
I meant to say "...do you THINK Lehman will ever see the due from affiliates assets?"
Your update last night indicated +/- $100B due from affiliates.
cheers
The one new LBHI issued common share is worth $47.1B. I am talking about the OBS in the LBHI plan trust. The assets that represent this value should end up in the liquidating trust after the creditors are paid off.
Cotton, you said "should"...where else COULD they end up?
These assets are due to LBHI from their controlled ($62.3B) and noncontrolled ($45.5B)affiliates...do you LEH will ever see these due from affiliates assets?
(See March 31, 2012 balance sheet below).
I do not think that many of the big boys, who hold stock, want to wait another four years to get paid. 100% agreement!
Your continued posting of this info keep me pumped up! Thank you.
Toogoodfella, skip that last question about "liquidating trust". I just found out that the "Plan Trust" is being treated as a liquidating trust.
The Plan Trust is intended to qualify as a “liquidating trust” for federal income tax purposes.
IMO that's why they asked for the w-9's. with my luck I'll owe LBHI money by the time this is all over...I can see them sending me a bill for losses incurred while liquidating assets!
Read more: http://www.faqs.org/sec-filings/120312/LEHMAN-BROTHERS-HOLDINGS-INC_8-K/#ixzz26OVA8QZ2
Hey Toogood_balls! not sure if that one, err, got tossed around the other day...sorry just a bad joke.
Do you know of any way to find out if LEH has formed a liquidating trust and what assets are in the trust? one would think it's public info...
7.5 Corporate Existence. After the Effective Date, the Plan Administrator may
decide to (a) maintain each Debtor as a corporation in good standing until such time as all
aspects of the Plan pertaining to such Debtor have been completed, or (b) at such time as the
Plan Administrator considers appropriate and consistent with the implementation of the Plan
pertaining to such Debtor, dissolve such Debtor and complete the winding up of such Debtor
without the necessity for any other or further actions to be taken by or on behalf of such
dissolving Debtor or its shareholder or any payments to be made in connection therewith subject
to the filing of a certificate of dissolution with the appropriate governmental authorities
(including, without limitation, the transfer of all or part of the assets of such Debtor to a
Liquidating Trust in accordance with Article X of the Plan), or (c) dissolve any Debtor-
Controlled Entity and complete the winding up of such Debtor-Controlled Entity in accordance
with applicable law; provided, however, that the foregoing does not limit the Plan
Administrator’s ability to otherwise abandon an interest in a Debtor-Controlled Entity.
sorry brother...no clue on that one.
IMO LBHI just placed the "one big share" in a "liquidating trust". The following long read is from the 3rd. amended POR on the subject. if true, I have no idea if this is good or bad for commons and/or preferreds. this could be why LBHI is asking for the w-9's. cheers
ARTICLE X
Liquidating Trust
10.1 Execution of Liquidating Trust Agreement. After the Effective Date, and only if
the Plan Administrator determines that one or more Liquidating Trusts are in the best interests of
one or more Debtors and holders of Allowed Claims against and Equity Interests in such
Debtors, the Plan Administrator and a Liquidating Trustee shall execute a Liquidating Trust
Agreement, and shall take all other necessary steps to establish a Liquidating Trust and
Liquidating Trust Interests therein, which shall be for the benefit of Liquidating Trust
Beneficiaries. In the event of any conflict between the terms of this Section 10.1 and the terms
of a Liquidating Trust Agreement as such conflict relates to the establishment of a Liquidating
Trust, the terms of this Section 10.1 shall govern. A Liquidating Trust Agreement may provide
powers, duties and authorities in addition to those explicitly stated herein, but only to the extent
that such powers, duties, and authorities do not affect the status of a Liquidating Trust as a
“liquidating trust” for United States federal income tax purposes.
10.2 Purpose of the Liquidating Trust. Each Liquidating Trust shall be established for
the sole purpose of liquidating and distributing the assets of the Debtor contributed to such
Liquidating Trust in accordance with Treas. Reg. § 301.7701-4(d), with no objective to continue
or engage in the conduct of a trade or business.
10.3 Liquidating Trust Assets. Each Liquidating Trust shall consist of Liquidating
Trust Assets. After the creation of a Liquidating Trust pursuant to Section 10.1 of the Plan, the
Plan Administrator shall transfer all of the Liquidating Trust Assets to a Liquidating Trust.
Liquidating Trust Assets may be transferred subject to certain liabilities, as provided in a
Liquidating Trust Agreement. Such transfer shall be exempt from any stamp, real estate
transfer, mortgage reporting, sales, use or other similar tax pursuant to section 1146(a) of the
Bankruptcy Code.
10.4 Administration of the Liquidating Trust. Each Liquidating Trust shall be
administered by a Liquidating Trustee pursuant to a Liquidating Trust Agreement and the Plan.
In the event of an inconsistency between the Plan and a Liquidating Trust Agreement as such
conflict relates to anything other than the establishment of a Liquidating Trust, the Liquidating
Trust Agreement shall control.
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10.5 Liquidating Trustee’s Tax Power for Debtors. A Liquidating Trustee shall have
the same authority in respect of all taxes of the Debtors, and to the same extent, as if the
Liquidating Trustee were the Debtor.
10.6 Cash Investments. A Liquidating Trustee may invest Cash (including any
earnings thereon or proceeds therefrom); provided, however, that such investments are
investments permitted to be made by a “liquidating trust” within the meaning of Treas. Reg. §
301.7701-4(d), as reflected therein, or under applicable IRS guidelines, rulings or other
controlling authorities.
10.7 Distribution of Liquidating Trust Interests. A Liquidating Trustee is required to
distribute to the holders of Allowed Claims on account of their Liquidating Trust Interests, on a
semi-annual basis, all Available Cash (including any Cash received from the Debtors and
treating any permissible investment as Cash for purposes of this Section 10.7), less such amounts
that may be reasonably necessary to (a) meet contingent liabilities and to maintain the value of
the Liquidating Trust Assets during liquidation, (b) pay reasonable incurred or anticipated
expenses (including, without limitation, any taxes imposed on or payable by the Debtors or
Liquidating Trust or in respect of the Liquidating Trust Assets), or (c) satisfy other liabilities
incurred or anticipated by such Liquidating Trust in accordance with the Plan or Liquidating
Trust Agreement; provided, however, that such Liquidating Trustee shall not be required to make
a Distribution pursuant to this Section 10.7 of the Plan if such Liquidating Trustee determines
that the expense associated with making the Distribution would likely utilize a substantial
portion of the amount to be distributed, thus making the Distribution impracticable.
10.8 Federal Income Tax Treatment of Liquidating Trust. Subject to definitive
guidance from the IRS or a court of competent jurisdiction to the contrary (including the receipt
of an adverse determination by the IRS upon audit if not contested by such Liquidating Trustee),
for all United States federal income tax purposes, all parties (including, without limitation, the
Debtors, a Liquidating Trustee and Liquidating Trust Beneficiaries) shall treat the transfer of
Liquidating Trust Assets to a Liquidating Trust as (1) a transfer of Liquidating Trust Assets
(subject to any obligations relating to those assets) directly to Liquidating Trust Beneficiaries
(other than to the extent Liquidating Trust Assets are allocable to Disputed Claims), followed by
(2) the transfer by such beneficiaries to a Liquidating Trust of Liquidating Trust Assets in
exchange for Liquidating Trust Interests. Accordingly, except in the event of contrary definitive
guidance, Liquidating Trust Beneficiaries shall be treated for United States federal income tax
purposes as the grantors and owners of their respective share of Liquidating Trust Assets (other
than such Liquidating Trust Assets as are allocable to Disputed Claims). The foregoing
treatment shall also apply, to the extent permitted by applicable law, for state and local income
tax purposes. For the purpose of this Section 10.8, the terms “party” and “Liquidating Trust
Beneficiary” shall not include the United States or any agency or department thereof, or any
officer or employee thereof acting in such capacity.
10.9 Tax Reporting.
(a) A Liquidating Trustee shall file tax returns for a Liquidating Trust treating
such Liquidating Trust as a grantor trust pursuant to Treas. Reg. § 1.671-4(a) and in accordance
with this Section 10.9(a). A Liquidating Trustee also shall annually send to each holder of a
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Liquidating Trust Interest a separate statement regarding the receipts and expenditures of the
Liquidating Trust as relevant for U.S. federal income tax purposes and will instruct all such
holders to use such information in preparing their U.S. federal income tax returns or to forward
the appropriate information to such holders’ underlying beneficial holders with instructions to
utilize such information in preparing their U.S. federal income tax returns.
(b) Allocations of Liquidating Trust taxable income among Liquidating Trust
Beneficiaries (other than taxable income allocable to any assets allocable to, or retained on
account of, Disputed Claims) shall be determined by reference to the manner in which an amount
of Cash representing such taxable income would be distributed (were such Cash permitted to be
distributed at such time) if, immediately prior to such deemed Distribution, the Liquidating Trust
had distributed all its assets (valued at their tax book value, other than assets allocable Disputed
Claims) to the holders of Liquidating Trust Interests, adjusted for prior taxable income and loss
and taking into account all prior and concurrent Distributions from a Liquidating Trust.
Similarly, taxable loss of a Liquidating Trust shall be allocated by reference to the manner in
which an economic loss would be borne immediately after a hypothetical liquidating distribution
of the remaining Liquidating Trust Assets. The tax book value of Liquidating Trust Assets for
purpose of this paragraph shall equal their fair market value on the date Liquidating Trust Assets
are transferred to a Liquidating Trust, adjusted in accordance with tax accounting principles
prescribed by the IRC, the applicable Treasury Regulations, and other applicable administrative
and judicial authorities and pronouncements.
(c) As soon as reasonably practicable after Liquidating Trust Assets are
transferred to a Liquidating Trust, a Liquidating Trustee shall make a good faith valuation of
Liquidating Trust Assets. Such valuation shall be made available from time to time to all parties
to the Liquidating Trust (including, without limitation, the Debtors and Liquidating Trust
Beneficiaries), to the extent relevant to such parties for tax purposes, and shall be used
consistently by such parties for all United States federal income tax purposes.
(d) Subject to definitive guidance from the IRS or a court of competent
jurisdiction to the contrary (including the receipt by a Liquidating Trustee of a private letter
ruling if such Liquidating Trustee so requests one, or the receipt of an adverse determination by
the IRS upon audit if not contested by such Liquidating Trustee), such Liquidating Trustee (i)
may timely elect to treat any Liquidating Trust Assets allocable to Disputed Claims as a
“disputed ownership fund” governed by Treas. Reg. § 1.468B-9, and (ii) to the extent permitted
by applicable law, shall report consistently for state and local income tax purposes. If a
“disputed ownership fund” election is made, all parties (including such Liquidating Trustee, the
Debtors and Liquidating Trust Beneficiaries) shall report for United States federal, state and
local income tax purposes consistently with the foregoing.
(e) A Liquidating Trustee shall be responsible for payment, out of Liquidating
Trust Assets, of any taxes imposed on a Liquidating Trust or its assets.
(f) A Liquidating Trustee may request an expedited determination of taxes of
a Liquidating Trust, including any reserve for Disputed Claims, or of the Debtor as to whom the
Liquidating Trust was established, under section 505(b) of the Bankruptcy Code for all tax
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returns filed for, or on behalf of, such Liquidating Trust or the Debtor for all taxable periods
through the dissolution of such Liquidating Trust.
10.10 Dissolution.
(a) A Liquidating Trustee and Liquidating Trust shall be discharged or
dissolved, as the case may be, at such time as (i) all of the Liquidating Trust Assets have been
distributed pursuant to the Plan and a Liquidating Trust Agreement, (ii) a Liquidating Trustee
determines, in its sole discretion, that the administration of any remaining Liquidating Trust
Assets is not likely to yield sufficient additional Liquidating Trust proceeds to justify further
pursuit, or (iii) all Distributions required to be made by a Liquidating Trustee under the Plan and
a Liquidating Trust Agreement have been made; provided, however, that in no event shall a
Liquidating Trust be dissolved later than three (3) years from the creation of such Liquidating
Trust pursuant to Section 10.1 of the Plan unless the Bankruptcy Court, upon motion within the
six-month period prior to the third (3rd) anniversary (or within the six-month period prior to the
end of an extension period), determines that a fixed period extension (not to exceed three (3)
years, together with any prior extensions, without a favorable private letter ruling from the IRS
or an opinion of counsel satisfactory to the Liquidating Trustee that any further extension would
not adversely affect the status of the trust as a liquidating trust for United States federal income
tax purposes) is necessary to facilitate or complete the recovery and liquidation of the
Liquidating Trust Assets.
(b) If at any time a Liquidating Trustee determines, in reliance upon such
professionals as a Liquidating Trustee may retain, that the expense of administering a
Liquidating Trust so as to make a final Distribution to Liquidating Trust Beneficiaries is likely to
exceed the value of the assets remaining in such Liquidating Trust, such Liquidating Trustee may
apply to the Bankruptcy Court for authority to (i) reserve any amount necessary to dissolve such
Liquidating Trust, (ii) donate any balance to a charitable organization (A) described in section
501(c)(3) of the IRC, (B) exempt from United States federal income tax under section 501(a) of
the IRC, (C) not a “private foundation”, as defined in section 509(a) of the IRC, and (D) that is
unrelated to the Debtors, such Liquidating Trust, and any insider of such Liquidating Trustee,
and (iii) dissolve such Liquidating Trust.
go to www.lehman-docket.com
it was towards the bottom of the page. the link was posted on this ihub board earlier today, but now I can't find the message it was attached to.
cheers
Jerseyhawg,
in case you missed it earlier...I doubt it because I know you read every word posted! But, the commons w-9 goes to one address (NJ) and the preferreds w-9 goes to another one in (RI).
cheers and I'll meet up with you guys for a hangover style weekend in vegas soon! LOL
man that is one scary looking icon photo next to your name...very creepy!
anyways, I only hold commons so I did not ask that question, BUT I did notice on the preferreds letter that the w-9 form is being mailed to a totally different address. So I would say yes to your question if you hold both share types.
cheers
Hi Guster0,
No I only own commons after they filed BK. I actually did not receive anything in the mail either...I pulled this off of the lehman-docket.com
a fellow boarder posted it today. you can find a pdf of the w-9 just in a google search...it send you over to the irs.gov site to download. check it out.
cheers
Ok so I just spoke to Chris Morgan at "Shareholder Services" about the W-9. It was a recorded line and he had me confirm at the end that no financial advice or sales advice was exchanged.
He said the BK court has required Lehman to obtain the w-9 forms from commons and preferreds. That was really all of it. He did ask for my name and phone number for his records.
I'm going to send in my w-9 now.
if anything new pops up, I will share.
cheers
does that mean NOL's are a moot point from a standpoint of carry-forwards? or just a wash with the pending BK discharges?
cheers
Yes. The form states...
If you have any questions regarding this request, please contact Computershare at: 800-824-5707.
I think it's just SOP. we might get money or we may have losses or something else that is either a benefit or a deduction and they have to notify the IRS with the recipient of this gain or loss.
I don't think automatically that it's positive news...it's just paper pushing at this point.
cheers
so what's your guess on Commons/Preferreds? Do they get a piece of the Archstone REIT and then the Plan Trust goes away or do they just receive any remaining cash after remaining BK pay-out...then plan trust still goes away?
I guess I'm simply asking...will commons receive shares or cash?
In the W-9 letter is states:
" within 75 days following the end of the calendar year or as soon as practicable thereafter, the trustees of the LBHI plan trust will furnish the beneficiaries the information regarding the income, gain, loss, deduction or credit (if any) of the LBHI plan trust for the calendar year just ended..."
I suppose that does not mean that the plan trust ends 75 days into 2013. They could provide this annual information every year until the cows come home...
cheers
Toogoodfella,
Sorry bro but I lost you after the WOW...
how did you arrive at your conception?
Cheers
RE: the W-9 form request from Lehman stated that the "Plan Trust" is intended to be treated as a "liquidating trust" and taxable as a "grantor trust". FWIW, below is the definition of those terms.
The tax regulations define a liquidating trust as one created for the primary purpose of "liquidating and distributing its assets" (Treas. Reg. § 301.7701- 4(d)). Accordingly, the trust instrument must carefully and narrowly grant the trustee only the powers reasonably necessary to accomplish such a purpose. So viewed, a liquidating trust is not a business trust because it possesses only a liquidation objective (protect and conserve) rather than a broader business objective. However, if the existence of the trust is unreasonably prolonged or if the liquidation purpose becomes sufficiently obscured or abandoned by business activities, the trust will "become" a business trust.
Unfortunately, since liquidating trusts are usually formed to hold title to assets pending resolution of some business- related contingency such as third-party contract and tort claims or the disposition of hard-to-sell property, the administration of the trust will nearly always involve carrying on some business activities. In these cases, the issue becomes whether the business activities are merely "incidental and necessary" to the declared liquidation purpose or are rather dominant to that purpose.
Grantor Trust:
1. Trust created by a trust agreement and not by a will.
2. Trust in which the trustor retains control over the trust property to the extent that he or she is taxed on that property's income.
I understand this is apples and oranges...but it took Salon Pas a long long time to enter the USA. Not sure when they started with FDA...they were approved in 2008. Can one of the board brain trust dig a little bit and find out? afterall, this product is a primary competitor for share of mind from the consumer. 20 billion in 20 years? I'll take it!
Salonpas is a brand name of a line of over-the-counter (OTC) pain relieving products manufactured by Hisamitsu Pharmaceutical Co., Inc. of Tosu City, Japan. Introduced to the Japanese market in 1934, Salonpas is now sold in approximately fifty countries.[1] The largest markets for the products are Japan and other Asian nations such as Vietnam, Philippines, Malaysia, Taiwan and other nations. According to Hisamitsu, approximately 20 billion Salonpas transdermal patches have been sold in the last 20 years.[2]
Similar products are marketed by other companies, including Absorbine Jr. Pain Relief, Excedrin Cooling Pads, and Icy Hot Patches.[3]
In 2008, Salonpas Pain Relief Patch and Salonpas Arthritis Pain products were approved as the first (and sole) OTC topical analgesic patch by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA).[4]
Cotton, forgive me for being so dense. But i'm trying to understand how there can even be any residual income when the POR states the following...
Do the classes below have a ceiling on how much they are due? If so, I could not find it in the POR. some other classes indicate a settlement %.
4.3 LBHI Class 3 – Senior Unsecured Claims against LBHI.
(b) Distributions. Each holder of an Allowed Claim in LBHI Class 3 shall receive its Pro Rata Share of (i) Available Cash from LBHI, (ii) Subordinated Class 10A
Distribution, (iii) Subordinated Class 10B Distribution, (iv) Subordinated Class 10C Distribution
and (v) the Plan Adjustment.
4.4 LBHI Class 4A – Senior Affiliate Claims against LBHI.
(b) Distributions. Subject to Section 6.5(b) of the Plan, each holder of an Allowed Claim in LBHI Class 4A shall receive its Pro Rata Share of (i) Available Cash from LBHI, (ii) Subordinated Class 10A Distribution, (iii) Subordinated Class 10B Distribution and(iv) Subordinated Class 10C Distribution.
4.5 LBHI Class 4B – Senior Affiliate Guarantee Claims against LBHI.
(b) Distributions. Subject to Section 6.5(b) of the Plan, each holder of an Allowed Claim in LBHI Class 4B shall receive its Pro Rata Share of (i) Available Cash from LBHI, (ii) Subordinated Class 10B Distribution and (iii) Subordinated Class 10C Distribution.
4.6 LBHI Class 5 – Senior Third-Party Guarantee Claims against LBHI.
(b) Distributions. Each holder of an Allowed Claim in LBHI Class 5 shall receive its Pro Rata Share of (i) (A) Available Cash from LBHI, (B) Subordinated Class 10B Distribution and (C) Subordinated Class 10C Distribution; provided, however, that the applicable Plan Adjustment Percentage of the Distributions set forth in clauses (A), (B) and (C) above shall be automatically redistributed pursuant to Section 6.5(a) of the Plan, and (ii) the Excess Plan Adjustment Portion with respect to LBHI Class 5.
TYIA and Cheers
are you saying that BIEL could put something like this on the box and sell them like vitamins? let the public decide if they work and then the public can spread the word???
not a half bad idea IMO...
"This statement has not been evaluated by the FDA. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease"?
This statement or "disclaimer" is required by law (DSHEA) when a manufacturer makes a structure/function claim on a dietary supplement label. In general, these claims describe the role of a nutrient or dietary ingredient intended to affect the structure or function of the body. The manufacturer is responsible for ensuring the accuracy and truthfulness of these claims; they are not approved by FDA. For this reason, the law says that if a dietary supplement label includes such a claim, it must state in a "disclaimer" that FDA has not evaluated this claim. The disclaimer must also state that this product is not intended to "diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease," because only a drug can legally make such a claim.
I hear ya...
I've only got commons and there is nothing for me to do but wait it out. I'm rooting for the CT's, mostly because I've grown fond of the great brains on this board and for all the DD that has trickled down to me as a commoner.
My gut tells me there is no way I'll ever see a dime...all my stocks go down...just like my wallet in Las Vegas. But I keep playing! no risk no reward, right?
The only thing I keep thinking about is the CT's are still trading...I suppose they could be trading because there is some outside chance that the senior notes could receive 100% payout???
seems like it would be illegal to have CT's trading right now IF Lehman knows full well they will be discharged upon BK closing.
I don't know, it's weird they are not in the OBS with other equity.
Cheers
I'm just a common bystander in this LEH CT saga BUT the guarantee does say that it can not be discharged...
Cotton, Toogood, LD and Hestheman can lend much more to the discussion.
I look forward to reading the posts.
cheers all
you beat me to it! I wanted to rub it in to imrichbeotch! LOL. well at least Iraq would have some oil money to spend on patches...Spain doesn't have a pot to piss in and with 24% unemployment means they'll have to stay with popping Tylenol for their aches and pains!
LOL...when IgetRich I'm going to send you to a Tony Robbins "the power of positive thinking" rally!
Iraq, now that was funny! so true!
well I got my posting privileges back...since I've been a good boy! Thank you Ihub gods!
and thank you Kidnova for the reply. I would only say that BIEL has RX approval for the eye patch already, and I assume they could go out to all plastic surgeons and eye dr's to inform and sell to them, couldn't they? maybe not...I do not know have that expertise.
one would think that all the other patches could fall into the same category as the eye patch for other body parts pain relieve. my god, the FDA approves for the EYE and not for a foot! what an amazing big gubment we have...go Obama! wow, you are the man!
I'm not a lawyer, but I would say it's very doubtful you would want to spend the time & big money to sue BIEL over this matter. They have told us that FDA has denied...but BIEL disagrees based on law. So they are in a tug of war right now, with the outcome uncertain but we all hope turns positive for us all and BIEL especially.
It's pretty simple...you already know this.
what I'm hoping for is approval, then buy-out. Otherwise we most likely will see denial then bankruptcy...such is life. Then the shareholders will get boned and AW will sell the patents to J&J - like he should have done 2 years ago.
my guess is it will get approved and then AW will try to get on the shelves in the USA and he will fail at that and then a buy-out will happen.
In the meantime, I feel the best approach for BIEL is to sell into the RX market direct to Drs. and Hospitals...you have to build a base and get thousands of people chatting up the benefits...Dr's are the key since they get it, once they know the facts. Amazon is no way to build a brand...it's nice, but it's not a brand builder.
Cheers Rich!
Hi CottonisKing,
Can you shed some light on the bold and underlined items below? what is meant by "excluding Distributions contributed to the Plan Adjustment on account of such Allowed Claim"?
when I read this is comes across as saying that classes that are receiving a negotiated % are exempt from this clause...could it be that the higher classes could receive more after satisfied in full with this exemption? maybe i'm just missing something here...I would appreciate any guidance. I don't mean to reopen a can of worms.
Cheers
8.13 Maximum Distribution.
(a) An (i) Allowed Claim that receives Distributions (excluding Distributions contributed to the Plan Adjustment on account of such Allowed Claim) in the Allowed amount of such Claim or (ii) Allowed Guarantee Claim that receives Distributions (excluding Distributions contributed to the Plan Adjustment on account of such Allowed Guarantee Claim) that combined with Distributions or other consideration provided on the corresponding Primary Claim (excluding Distributions contributed to the Plan Adjustment on account of such Primary Claim) equal the Allowed amount of such Guarantee Claim (or such amount as may be agreed to by a holder and the Debtors) shall, in each case, be deemed satisfied in full as to such Allowed Claim or Allowed Guarantee Claim against the applicable Debtor. To the extent that an Allowed Guarantee Claim is deemed satisfied in full, LBHI shall be entitled to receive future Distributions or consideration on account of the corresponding Primary Claim as subrogee pursuant to Section 8.14(a) of the Plan to the extent of LBHI’s Distribution on account of such Guarantee Claim less any amounts received by LBHI by way of disgorgement thereof. Except as specifically provided with respect to LBHI’s rights of subrogation set forth above, nothing contained herein shall in any way affect the rights of the holder of a Guarantee Claim with respect to a corresponding Primary Claim against a Primary Obligor that is not a Debtor.
this is nothing new...just a repost for any newbies here...
13.4 Discharge.
Except as expressly provided in the Plan, upon the date that all Distributions under the Plan have been made, (a) each holder (as well as any trustees and agents on behalf of each holder) of a Claim against or Equity Interest in a Debtor shall be deemed to have forever waived, released and discharged the Debtors, to the fullest extent permitted by section 1141 of the Bankruptcy Code, of and from any and all Claims, Equity Interests, rights and liabilities that arose prior to the Effective Date and (b) all such holders shall be forever precluded and enjoined, pursuant to section 524 of the Bankruptcy Code, from prosecuting or asserting any discharged Claim against or terminated Equity Interest in the Debtors.
and furthermore...
(c) To the extent that any Debtor has Available Cash after all Allowed Claims against that Debtor have been satisfied in full in accordance with Section 8.13(a) of the Plan, each holder of each such Allowed Claim shall receive its Pro Rata Share of further Distributions, if any, to the fullest extent permissible under the Bankruptcy Code in satisfaction of postpetition interest on the Allowed amount of such Claims at the rate applicable in the contract or contracts on which such Allowed Claim is based (or, absent such contractual rate, at the statutory rate) until such time as all postpetition interest on all such Allowed Claims has been paid in full.
cheers!
To the LEH board brain trust (of which I do not yet belong)...is below a good explanation of past CT interest due and the much questioned, "satisfied in full"?
8.12 Allocation of Distributions.
Distributions to any holder of an Allowed Claim shall be allocated first to the principal portion of any such Allowed Claim (as determined for federal income tax purposes), and, only after the principal portion of any such Allowed Claim is satisfied in full, to any portion of such Allowed Claim comprising interest (but solely to the extent that interest is an allowable portion of such Allowed Claim).
(not sure if that pertains to CT's but it's in the 3rd. amended POR).
8.13 Maximum Distribution.
(a) An (i) Allowed Claim that receives Distributions (excluding Distributions contributed to the Plan Adjustment on account of such Allowed Claim) in the Allowed amount of such Claim or (ii) Allowed Guarantee Claim that receives Distributions (excluding Distributions contributed to the Plan Adjustment on account of such Allowed Guarantee Claim) that combined with Distributions or other consideration provided on the corresponding Primary Claim (excluding Distributions contributed to the Plan Adjustment on account of such Primary Claim) equal the Allowed amount of such Guarantee Claim (or such amount as may be agreed to by a holder and the Debtors) shall, in each case, be deemed satisfied in full as to such Allowed Claim or Allowed Guarantee Claim against the applicable Debtor. To the extent that an Allowed Guarantee Claim is deemed satisfied in full, LBHI shall be entitled to receive future Distributions or consideration on account of the corresponding Primary Claim as subrogee pursuant to Section 8.14(a) of the Plan to the extent of LBHI’s Distribution on account of such Guarantee Claim less any amounts received by LBHI by way of disgorgement thereof. Except as specifically provided with respect to LBHI’s rights of subrogation set forth above, nothing contained herein shall in any way affect the rights of the holder of a Guarantee Claim with respect to a corresponding Primary Claim against a Primary Obligor that is not a Debtor.
(b) In no event shall (i) an Allowed Claim receive Distributions (excluding Distributions contributed to the Plan Adjustment on account of such Allowed Claim) in excess of the Allowed amount of such Claim or (ii) an Allowed Guarantee Claim receive Distributions (excluding Distributions contributed to the Plan Adjustment on account of such Allowed Guarantee Claim) that combined with Distributions or other consideration provided on the corresponding Primary Claim (excluding Distributions contributed to the Plan Adjustment on account of such Primary Claim) are in excess of the Allowed amount of the Guarantee Claim (or such amount as may be agreed to by a holder and the Debtors).
Cheers!