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I think realistically, we shouldnt expect escrow payout until Oct/Nov time frame. However, if escrow does not pay out by end of year, I will then concede we may have been robbed...I will then expect escrow marker deletion by March 2021...
RD, isnt the Libor dismissal coincidental timing with the last of the WMI bk creditor class shutting down on June 30 a little suspicious?
They have been "waiting" for this a long time and to settle with a whimper at this time is a little suspicious imo.
However, I will not look at a gift horse in the mouth....Let's hope we see the receivership shut down in July also....then escrow payout soon after!
NDT, I hope this means what I think it means! Finally, lets wrap up this silly Libor case and get the FDIC-R to close out the receivership. I never expected much from the Libor cases. Our only hope of significant recovery from escrow lies in the residual value sitting in those remote bankruptcy SPE's as CBA09 stated.
Its also suspicious that the libor cases are just ending now on June 26....days before the last of the checks to class 21 expired on June 30. I'm not going to look at the gift horse in the mouth...but really?!?
Keeping my fingers crossed. Let's hope we can see the receivership close out in July next!
IMO, there are three possible trigger points for remote bk assets release.
1) after the last creditor class is officially wiped off - after June 30 when class 21 is permanently gone
2) we might have to wait after 1) and also have Alice Griffin appeal case end. I believe that could be September/October.
3) The worst case scenario...we may have to wait until FDIC-R closes out. CBA09 mentioned that this can be the case if the SPE's were designed for "all True Ups" release condition.
I really hope it is not 3). My best guess is 2). So I think we might see something for escroq around Oct/Nov.
Two words: Bankruptcy Remote ->> You wont see the money until all creditor classes have been knocked off...which is happening June 30
Also, it is idiotic to think the loan residuals would be held under WMB and not protected under a "holding company" WMI...not mentioning the fact that it is also against securitization regulation to have residual interest benefit WMB... the loan originating bank
residual interest can only benefit WMI and not WMB...securitization regulation
Look at the 2007 Wamu 10k. Net interest income from loans were at $8.5B/year.
The beneficiary of the residual value of the SPE's cannot be WMB. Its against securitization rules for the originating bank (WMB) to be a beneficiary of the securitized loans. The beneficiary of the residual value had to be WMI - the holding company...which not only makes logical sense as you would want to protect your income stream from potential bank failure but it also has been confirmed by CBA09 that its the nominal structure for banks securitizing loans.
1) The methodology of protecting the residual value of the securitized loans in remote BK SPE's is not only common practice as confirmed by CBA09 but it also follows SEC securitization rules
2) 95% of Wamu loans were A rated so there is 0 chance that all the loans had a high default rate and there is 0 residual value left for WMI - afterall, the residual interest income from the loans were generating $8.5B/year prior to FDIC seizure. So its very unlikely, all those loans went bad over the last 12 years
3) There are a bunch of big money invested in equity. They would not give up billions in return without challenging the FDIC, if the loans all "supposedly" went bad and had 0 residual income left...so far they have sat patiently on the sideline without a single challenge in court
LG, thanks for the detailed timeline response. I agree, I dont think Alice's appeal should affect remote bk SPE's funds release to escrow after June 30. However, I'm still worried that FDIC-R hasn't closed yet. I wonder if the receivership may have potential clawback liability for the class 17 bonds from the remote bk SPE's. If that is the case, we may have to wait awhile until receivership closes.
I think we will either hear something for escrow by first week of August or hear nothing until October/November.
I wonder how long the big boys will wait after June 30 before filing a complaint for escrow?
LG, has Rosen given a donation date on the remaining LT money going to Charity? Is it on June 30?
LG, that is also my fear. CBA09 mentioned a scenario where those remote bankruptcy SPEs will not release the funds until FDIC-R closes out also. I believe he mentioned something called completed "True Ups" release condition.
CBA09 Friday, 10/06/17 05:23:29 PM
Re: clawmann post# 490893 0
Post # of 625606
Ref: Any idea as to timing? Are we looking at sometime before or after the end of 2018?
Comment:
I believe timing will be two fold:
1) That what happens within the finalization of receivership before the end of Sept 2018,
2) That what happens outside of the receivership, specific to Bankrupcty remote entities - SPE's. This, I strongly believe, is were the lions share of recovery will come. Each SPE / Trust is governed by the expressed language of each PSA. There a many and most likely many have reached ripeness while others continue until to carry out payment compliance to investors / certificate holders.
These stand alone SPE's have many accounts that keep separate various types of revenue. I know from first hand experience the amount of retained assets within can be massive. Many Trusts have 6-7 tranches with 10's of Thousands of loans in each tranche.
When a given Trust's PSA has completed it's fulfillment to certificate holders a provision called "Accounts Removable" takes place. But before the actual removable is initiated a reconciliation of "Retained Assets" takes place. This is the vouching of reports to $ in the captive cash accounts along with any remaining over "Over Collateralized Pooled Receivables." Then a true-up, namely $ distribution is performed by the Master Servicer. Here, from my experience, the Holding Company (WMI) would be the receiver of these retained assets.
Now the question is when will this happen. Since this is outside of Bankruptcy it could have happened with each fulfillment of PSA. Then again it could be ( for completed "True-ups" ) in tandem with the finalization of Receivership. Then of course, as those that meet fulfillment a payout accordingly.[/color]
LG, yes LT did expire on 3/19. I meant to say 6/30 is the time limit for the final LT money to class 21. I believe Class 21 is officially closed out after 6/30. Which means, the remote bankruptcy assets should be free to come out for equity class 19 and 22 after 6/30 because all other classes are gone and there are no longer any claw back liability.
Thanks, but I thought the LT cease to exist after 6/30... Didn't Rosen already file something of the sorts? No more LT after 6/30??
Football, what is the significance of 7/21?
Are we still on track for June 30 close out for LT? I believe June 30 close out shluld free up the remote bk assets as discussed by CBA09 years ago.
Thanks LG. Is there a due date for the decision?
LG, is there a court date for Alice's latest appeal? TIA
Has David Tepper returned outside investors' money yet? Was suplosed to be done by end of April. I cant find anything on the subject. Anyone know if this has happened?
Check out the following post from CBA09. He stated when he thought the bankruptcy remote SPE's may payout. See my highlight in red below. He stated there are two possible scenario. The first scenario will probably result in us seeing payment sometime between June 30 and March next year. In the second scenario, "True-Ups" , we may have to wait a few more years until the FDIC receivership closes -- meaning we wait until all the Libor cases get resolved.
I really hope its not "True-Ups"!
CBA09 Friday, 10/06/17 05:23:29 PM
Re: clawmann post# 490893 0
Post # of 625606
Ref: Any idea as to timing? Are we looking at sometime before or after the end of 2018?
Comment:
I believe timing will be two fold:
1) That what happens within the finalization of receivership before the end of Sept 2018,
2) That what happens outside of the receivership, specific to Bankrupcty remote entities - SPE's. This, I strongly believe, is were the lions share of recovery will come. Each SPE / Trust is governed by the expressed language of each PSA. There a many and most likely many have reached ripeness while others continue until to carry out payment compliance to investors / certificate holders.
These stand alone SPE's have many accounts that keep separate various types of revenue. I know from first hand experience the amount of retained assets within can be massive. Many Trusts have 6-7 tranches with 10's of Thousands of loans in each tranche.
When a given Trust's PSA has completed it's fulfillment to certificate holders a provision called "Accounts Removable" takes place. But before the actual removable is initiated a reconciliation of "Retained Assets" takes place. This is the vouching of reports to $ in the captive cash accounts along with any remaining over "Over Collateralized Pooled Receivables." Then a true-up, namely $ distribution is performed by the Master Servicer. Here, from my experience, the Holding Company (WMI) would be the receiver of these retained assets.
Now the question is when will this happen. Since this is outside of Bankruptcy it could have happened with each fulfillment of PSA. Then again it could be ( for completed "True-ups" ) in tandem with the finalization of Receivership. Then of course, as those that meet fulfillment a payout accordingly.
goodie, see my post #625607 below. There was an old post by CBA09 regarding "True Ups" PSA scenario...in which case those remote bk SPEs won't release the retained assets until the receivership closes.
Check out the following post from CBA09. He stated when he thought the bankruptcy remote SPE's may payout. See my highlight in red below. He stated there are two possible scenario. The first scenario will probably result in us seeing payment sometime between June 30 and March next year. In the second scenario, "True-Ups" , we may have to wait a few more years until the FDIC receivership closes -- meaning we wait until all the Libor cases get resolved.
I really hope its not "True-Ups"!
CBA09 Friday, 10/06/17 05:23:29 PM
Re: clawmann post# 490893 0
Post # of 625606
Ref: Any idea as to timing? Are we looking at sometime before or after the end of 2018?
Comment:
I believe timing will be two fold:
1) That what happens within the finalization of receivership before the end of Sept 2018,
2) That what happens outside of the receivership, specific to Bankrupcty remote entities - SPE's. This, I strongly believe, is were the lions share of recovery will come. Each SPE / Trust is governed by the expressed language of each PSA. There a many and most likely many have reached ripeness while others continue until to carry out payment compliance to investors / certificate holders.
These stand alone SPE's have many accounts that keep separate various types of revenue. I know from first hand experience the amount of retained assets within can be massive. Many Trusts have 6-7 tranches with 10's of Thousands of loans in each tranche.
When a given Trust's PSA has completed it's fulfillment to certificate holders a provision called "Accounts Removable" takes place. But before the actual removable is initiated a reconciliation of "Retained Assets" takes place. This is the vouching of reports to $ in the captive cash accounts along with any remaining over "Over Collateralized Pooled Receivables." Then a true-up, namely $ distribution is performed by the Master Servicer. Here, from my experience, the Holding Company (WMI) would be the receiver of these retained assets.
Now the question is when will this happen. Since this is outside of Bankruptcy it could have happened with each fulfillment of PSA. Then again it could be ( for completed "True-ups" ) in tandem with the finalization of Receivership. Then of course, as those that meet fulfillment a payout accordingly.
Key, I've been rereading through all of CBA09 messages. I wish he were still with us on the board. I really would like his opinion on whether any further action is needed by us escrow holders to "claim" those bk remote assets or if those assets would return to us automatically.
My opinion now is we need to wait until LT donates the last of the unclaimed funds from class 21 before we hear anything from the bankruptcy remote SPE funds.
Does anyone know when LT is donating the last of the unclaimed money to charity?
Stox, there is also a possibility that CBA09 could be deceased. If I recall, I believe he mentioned in one of his posts that he is of retirement age. I really hope this is not the case as many on this board have been wasting away their golden years these past 12 years...
LG, I must respectfully disagree with you. I think CBA09 response to me was clear but it doesn't matter -- the 75/25 issue is what it is.
However, I appreciate you posting his old posts. I've been rereading through a bunch of them and feel much more assured now.
Do you suppose there might be a turnover action between 5/31 and 6/30 for those bankruptcy remote assets?
I read in one of CBA09 posts where he claimed those bk remote assets can bypass WMILT and come back to the escrow markers directly via DTC. If that is the case then there might not be a turnover action. Perhaps we will finally see our money via DTC after 6/30.
I'm starting to believe we will see something after 6/30. Also, I do not believe FDIC needs to close the receivership for those remote bk assets to come back.
If we have to wait for FDIC to close the receivership, then we are f**ked!! This could take a few more years with Libor cases dragging on!
So I believe as you have stated (LT must inform by October of extending the March 2021 end date), we will most likely know our fate sometime between June 30 and October 31.
LG, please see CBA09 response to my question from 2018. I've highlighted his response below in red. CBA09 stated the remote bankruptcy retained assets (safe harbored assets) will return to the escrow markers via priority rule. Only the property in the bankruptcy estate (those managed by LT) will distribute via 75/25 per POR 7. See below.
CBA09 Sunday, 01/14/18 03:41:16 PM
Re: LuckyPanda post# 503177 0
Post # of 625539
Ref: CBA09, if safe harbor rules protect the assets to pre-bankruptcy ownership then its distribution should not apply to POR7. Does that mean escrow markers are moot? Will all Wamu shareholders receive a distribution including the non-releasing ones? Thanks in advance for your input. I have been wondering about this for some time.
Comment:
Liquidation of assets involves two distinct assets:
1) Property of the Bankruptcy Estate - (Por7 applies).
2) Non-Property of the Bankruptcy Estate - Safe Harbor Assets ( regular bankruptcy code procedures / priority apply).
While the above two are distinct in nature "ALL" residual interest will go to Escrow Markers. So, no, not moot. Escrow Markers are the legacy shareholders. Thereby, have final legal standing and in turn sole contractual rights / title in residual interest.
Ownership Chain -
WMI owns the assets of WMI and in turn has legal title to all the assets of it's subsidiaries. Shareholders of WMI have legal title to all the assets of WMI. All assets that end up in WMI thru it's subsidiaries are thereby assets that WMI shareholders have legal contractual rights.
Por7, thru its declarations, have addressed the distribution of liquidated Bankruptcy Estate Assets. All residual interest of estate assets will go to Escrow Markers per the 75 % / 25 % allocation.
Since our Safe Harbor Assets are outside the bankruptcy estate, those captured within SPE/Trusts will follow each respective Pooling & Service Agreement (PSA) provisions. Generally, it's Parent that receives cash flows of residuals. Note, SPE# 1 create the SPE# 2 /Trusts, SPE 1 are many times direct subsidiaries of the Parent. And, SPE # 1's have a great deal of involvement in residual interest of SPE # 2 / Trusts.
In a solvent entity shareholders cannot force a distribution. A Corporation, thru it's board, has to declare a distribution of it's profit before shareholders are to receive any distribution in the form of dividends.
PSA are compelling and indivisible - only one end stop - Escrow Markers.
RD, Congratulations! That's a lot of 'Yes, Dear' to make it last for 40. I salute you sir!
I hope the hedge funds are watching this board and I hope they will leave a little present for you and your lady by filing something for all of us next month.
Congratulations again for you and your wife for making it to 40!
LG, could this also be the period (5/31 to 6/30) that escrow holders need to file claim for the remote bankruptcy assets? I'm worried that we may miss our opportunity to file a claim for ths remote bankruptcy assets past 6/30. I really feel that we need some professional legal advise at this point to see if we need to file any claims for those remote bankruptcy assets.
Nobody here knows for sure if those remote assets will return to escrow automatically or if we need to file a claim for them.
I really think the board should organize a crowd fund to buy some legal advise at this point.
Hey what happened to the Wamu story on top of this board? Who took it down?
I dont care about the Libor payment. I just want FDIC to close the receivership. I only want to see whats in the remote bankruptcy DST.
Has anyone contacted FDIC for an update on how many of the 16 banks that were sued for Libor manipulation have settled? It has been 6 years since the lawsuit was filed (2014?). Are we going to have to wait until 2024 for these lawsuits to end?
AZ, could it be that FDIC will be the "Tell" and not Coop? Is it probable that FDIC needs to close out the receivership before the remote bankruptcy assets in the DST can be addressed? Is the trustee for the DST essentially powerless until the receivership closes?..thereby eliminating any last claw-back liability to the receivership before distribution?
Dude, why are you so angry and yelling at me? I already told you my plan.
1) We are going to give it enough reasonable time for escrow to resolve 'automatically' after bk closure. I would say 1 quarter after closure is reasonable (end of June).
2) I am not in a position to take the lead in contacting SG for some legal counsel (not for litigation, but for legal advice on what/if any paperwork needs to be done to claim those remote bk assets). Since Stoxjock volunteered to contact SG. I am volunteering to manage crowdfunding for some reasonable legal fees for his investigation (<$100k).
3) I will contact Stockjox to coordinate some crowdfunding at the end of June. Right now I'm just trying to keep everyone informed of my plan so come end of June...if escrow hasn't been paid, I will like people to be ready to chip in. I will personally throw in $5k myself to the crowdfunding when it starts.
My plan is reasonable and somewhat affordable, Its more than what you are offering..Which is just yelling at people and doing nothing.
LG, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Now, the statement you are referring to applies to assets that were under the LT. Any asset in remote bankruptcy were in legal isolation so LT could not address it during the bankruptcy process.
However, just like the last of the LT assets, the remote bk assets may have a time limit on claiming it. What if the remote bk assets don't come back to escrow automatically, and like the LT assets, there's a time limit to claiming them.
So we need to find out if we are missing any paperwork claim forms for the remote bk assets now that the bk is over...or if those assets will come back to escrow markers automatically. Either way, we should get professional legal advice on what needs to be done.
We are not calling to ask "Where's the money?". But, we need to ask...
Should we continue to sit and wait or do we need to file paperwork if there are hypothetical "remote bankruptcy assets".
If SG can answer that question for less than $100k then we should all chip in and support Stockjock.
Again, we are not hiring any lawfirm to litigate anything -- cost too much and unpractical.
We just need legal advice to make sure sitting and waiting is the only thing we need to do right now that the bk is over.
We should give them 1 full quarter after the bk close. Maybe we'll get lucky and hear something by end of June. But if we don't then we should support Stoxjock financially when he tries to make contact with SG for legal advice -- again legal advice to see if we need to file any additional paperwork or continue sitting on our ass -- not litigation or disclosure or remote bk assets.
I'm giving advance notice to the board for end of June. I admit, I am not the one to lead into SG office but I will start up a go fund me page to raise money for the board if Stoxjock can make an initial contact with SG as he suggested he will in early July if we don't hear anything by then.
I will support Stoxjock's effort by helping him with crowdfunding. I'm just getting the board ready for when the time comes. June 30th is fast approaching!
I'm not under any disillusionment regarding wasting money with litigation. We are not going to litigate anything. If any attorney suggest we litigate, then it better be on consignment basis.
What I'm simply suggesting is, "if" SG would be willing to clarify us with some legal advice as to whether waiting on our asses is the only thing we can do now or if there are some administrative action that we should be doing now? like filing some paperwork to claim those remote bk assets? That legal advice should not cost more that $100k max.
We need professional advice right now as to whether waiting on our asses is the right thing to do or if we need to file some sort paperwork or something??
If we end up hearing something before end of June...GREAT!! But if not, we should be prepare to invest a little and get some professional advice.
We are not litigating anything like Griffin. We just need a little professional legal advice as to what our options are after June 30.
Why is everyone so afraid of investing a little to clarify our position. We've waited 12 years. Do you really want to risk getting nothing because we missed some simple procedural paperwork filing at the last minute?
Understood. That's why I suggested that we help Stoxjock fund his trip to SG. He said he will go to their office in July if nothing happens by end of June. If he is simply asking legal advice on if any additional 'paperwork' needs to be done for our escrow markers and was not asking to disclose any remote bk assets, perhaps the SG attorneys will not run into any conflict of interest and can provide him with some answers.
I agree. Hiring a new law firm will be very expensive...even to just review our case and come up to speed.
Our only hope is that SG can provide some legal advice without running into any conflict of interest regarding disclosures. All we need is for them to answer 1 question.
"Can we continue to sit on our asses and wait? or is there something else we need to do now that the bk is over?"
Maybe answering that question may take 100k but it will be well worth it.
Jinsong, I've tried emailing the LT. I've clarified in my questioning that I'm not asking the LT to disclose any remote bankruptcy assets...that I was simply asking if such 'hypothetical' remote bankruptcy assets existed, will those assets return to our escrow markers 'automatically' or do we need to file additional paperwork to claim them now that the bk is over.
I've have not received any response. crickets...
It's a fair question and I think they could answer the hypothetical question without any legal disclosure of legally isolated remote bk assets...but no response.
Boris, no litigation. Litigation is too expensive. I'm just suggesting that we get some legal counsel to see if we are missing any 'additional actions' at this time. What if the return of the remote bankruptcy assets is not 'automatic'? What if we need to file some sort of 'claim action' along with our ownership of the escrow markers?
We have waited for so long that I want to make sure we are not missing an additional step at the last moment. We should invest just a little bit of crowd funding to get legal advice to make sure we are not missing any additional administrative action at this time...just a few hours of legal counsel to make sure.
Believe me, I know the cost of litigation and we are not going to be able to fund that or is it practical at this point. I just want to make sure we are not missing some simple 'additional paperwork' at this time to claim those remote bankruptcy assets.