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Amen!
lmorovan,
Please go pray for discernment and read the book of Galatians.
Galatians 4:16
16 So have I become your enemy by telling you the truth?
Legalism.
lmorovan,
Truth isn't relative.
Titus 1:9
9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.
Good night.
excel,
Amen!
lmorovan,
You are right! There isn't a verse that says that God makes exceptions to his commandments!
This is my advice to you lmorovan:
2 Timothy 2:15
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
lmorovan,
Can you show me a verse that says that God makes exceptions to His commands? Can you show me in the Bible where God made an exception to allow Saul to consult a medium and to bring Samuel up for a discussion? Why would God make an exception to a commandment? That is like God commanding us not to commit adultery, only to allow an exception in the case of king David. What David did was a sin against God, not an exception. What Saul did when he consulted a medium was a sin and it was not the will of God that Saul did what He did and that does not contradict the Sovereignty of God. God is Sovereign, yet sin exists until He permanently removes it.
2 Samuel 12:13
13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has taken away your sin; you shall not die.
Unless you plan on responding with God's Word, don't bother responding.
lmorovan,
I didn't change the subject, it goes back to what you think happens when we die. You think our souls go to sleep until the Final Judgment. If that is so, then why would God command mankind not to consult with those who can bring up the dead if it was not possible? Why would he command Israel to kill mediums if they could not bring up the spirits of dead people? If Samuel was dead and buried, and his soul was asleep awaiting the Final Judgment, how was a medium able to conjur him up so that Saul could consult with him and discuss things with him?
Can you answer?
lmorovan,
You never called it the doctrine of Soul Sleep, but that is what it is. You can ask any 7th Day Adventist and he will agree with you, that when you die, your soul sleeps and does not go to heaven. You have repeatedly stated that you don't believe anyone is in heaven or hell yet.
You haven't addressed the many verses in the Bible that are in direct conflict with that belief. I will not take the time to repeat them for you again.
Can you explain how you interpret the difference between the first and second resurrection?
Just like the Jews who rejected Jesus because they did not rightly discern that Jesus would come first as a suffering servant but only as a conquering King, you fail to discern that multiple events will take place and you lump them into one event.
You believe in the doctrine of Soul Sleep, whether you know it by that name or not.
Why did God command mankind not to consult a medium?
Deuteronomy 18:9-11
9 “When you enter the land which the Lord your God gives you, you shall not learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations.
10 “There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,
11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.
Explain these verses please.
1 Samuel 28:3
3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him and buried him in Ramah, his own city. And Saul had removed from the land those who were mediums and spiritists.
1 Samuel 28:7-20
7 Then Saul said to his servants, “Seek for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “Behold, there is a woman who is a medium at En-dor.”
8 Then Saul disguised himself by putting on other clothes, and went, he and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night; and he said, “Conjure up for me, please, and bring up for me whom I shall name to you.”
9 But the woman said to him, “Behold, you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off those who are mediums and spiritists from the land. Why are you then laying a snare for my life to bring about my death?”
10 Saul vowed to her by the Lord, saying, “As the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.”
11 Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.”
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul.”
13 The king said to her, “Do not be afraid; but what do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a divine being coming up out of the earth.”
14 He said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage.
15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” And Saul answered, “I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do.”
16 Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the Lord has departed from you and has become your adversary?
17 “The Lord has done accordingly as He spoke through me; for the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, to David.
18 “As you did not obey the Lord and did not execute His fierce wrath on Amalek, so the Lord has done this thing to you this day.
19 “Moreover the Lord will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Indeed the Lord will give over the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines!”
20 Then Saul immediately fell full length upon the ground and was very afraid because of the words of Samuel; also there was no strength in him, for he had eaten no food all day and all night.
terryt,
You are right again, but I was not trying to defend the person Imorovan or his Biblical views, but the right of a person to express his Biblical views free from what I viewed as "harasment". If I gave the wrong impression I apologize to the board.
What Biblical views did he present? Is the doctrine of Soul Sleep a Biblical view? Maybe, if you ignore or spiritualize many, many verses as he has done after repeated requests to interpret specific verses in a way that supports his view.
Is his questioning of the accuracy of Matthew and Luke's gospel accounts of the transfiguration, Biblical?
Is his inconsistent treatment of Luke providing additional information about the transfiguration account and other gospel differences such as the recorded words of Jesus on the cross, Biblical?
I have never and will never judge a man's heart, that isn't my place to do so. We were trying to discuss what the Bible says and lmorovan repeatedly and blatently ignored many Bible verses, spiritualized others and responded with opinions, not Scripture. When asked to interpret a verse that he said should be spiritualized so we could extract some meaning from it, he ignored those requests too.
Did you take the time to read the entire discussion that took place this past weekend to see what was presented to lmorovan, how it was presented and his responses or lack of them?
lmorovan,
I thought that since you believe that women are not to preach the that you thought you should be disqualified from posting on the board.
excel is the moderator, he is the only one that has the authority to disqualify you from posting here. You should ask him.
Although we disagree on what the Bible teaches, I hope that we can have a respectful dialogue. I am usually very busy during the week and like NJMARK50 won't have a lot of time to discuss things during the week.
Have a good day.
lmorovan,
Are you a woman?
excel,
I can appreciate the difficult position you are in as the moderator. I am sure that you want everyone to get along here and fellowship, as do I, but we should not be surprised that topics will be brought up, discussed and debated. I think it would be wise to set up some ground rules when that happens and I hope that we can agree that the Bible should be the ultimate authority in discussing doctrinal issues. I am new here and I am not trying to tell you how to moderate this board, I am just making a suggestion to try and avoid a repeat occurrence of what happened this weekend. I will not make any judgement on anyone's salvation, that is God's job to know the hearts of men, but I can and am commanded to make judgments about teachings.
What would happen if a Catholic Christian began posting here and proclaiming doctrines like transubstantiation, purgatory, Mary the queen of heaven, Mary our intercessor and co-redeemer, Mary the mother of God, Mary's perpetual virginity, confession of our sins to a priest for forgiveness?
What would happen if a Mormon Christian began posting here and proclaiming doctrines that state that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is only one of many gods and we will attain the same level of godhood if we do the right things in this life? Or the belief that Satan is Jesus' brother? Or that Elohim came to earth and had intercourse with Mary?
What would happen if a charismatic Christian began posting here that unless you speak in tongues, you have not been baptized with the Holy Spirit and will go to hell?
What would happen if a 7th Day Adventist began posting here that if you worship on Sunday, your worship is worthless and rejected ? Or that if you pray in the name of Jesus it is worthless, because you are only to address Christ with His Hebrew name Yeshua?
How can we tell what is true? If there is truth there is also falsehood. We must establish a final authority to determine what is true to the best of our ability. I believe that authority should be God's Word, not extra-biblical texts or doctrines of men.
I think topics can be discussed in a kind and respectful manner while holding people to account with God's Word. If someone wants to defend or proclaim a position, they should use God's Word and use it in a consistent and responsible manner. Satan himself mishandled God's Word when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness. You can make the Bible say anything you want if you take a verse out of context, spiritualize it and ignore completely other verses on the topic. If someone demonstrates that he or she will not address and interpret certain Bible passages that are in direct conflict with their position someone needs to make a decision if they are to be allowed to continue to proclaim their beliefs on your board.
As Christians we are commanded to hold to sound doctrine.
2 Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
Titus 1:9
9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.
I am confident that you do not want this board to be a platform from which people are free to proclaim false teachings, even if they are sincere in their beliefs. We are called to hold to sound doctrine, not ecumenicalism.
Thank you for taking the time to read and consider this and thank you for providing this forum of discussion.
lmorovan,
That would make things easier for you wouldn't it?
Matthew 19:26
26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
lmorovan,
Your smugness is unbecoming of a Christian. Also, the way you chose to completely ignore clear teachings in the Bible yesterday after many attempts requesting you to address them makes your smugness all the more unbecoming.
lmorovan,
What is even more concerning to many is when a so called Christian refuses to acknowledge and interpret certain passages in the Bible.
Killianpsi,
Have you ever read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis? I found it to be very insightful, a little difficult at times, but worth the effort.
lmorovan,
Yes, as did I, but I don't think you understand what he was saying.
lmorovan,
There isn't anything left to discuss, I am sure that NJMARK50 does not deny that God exists both inside and outside of the universe. If he does, then I would disagree. Since he is not here, I will not put words in his mouth, especially since I don't believe he said what you are implying he said.
Please move on, this needless banter is tiresome.
Isaiah 55:8-9
8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
lmorovan,
If someone came up to you and asked you what they had to do to be saved, what would you tell them and what Scripture would you use to support your answer?
lmorovan,
He was responding to your statement about God's sovereignty and said:
"And again I will ask you, was God sovereign at the time of the Fall or, as you state, did Adam 'had and acted upon free will'? If God is sovereign now, He was sovereign in the beginning. The fall of man did not effect God's sovereignty.
As the First Source and Creator, God is outside the universe and His attributes were not effected by the sin of mankind."
What he said was that God's attributes are not affected by what man does on the earth. He was sovereign before the fall of man and is still sovereign today after the fall of man.
He was addressing your belief that man lost his free will when he fell and sinned. I believe NJMARK50's beliefs are correct and that your view of free will is wrong.
I do not want to discuss the issue with you unless you are fully prepared and committed to defending your belief with Scripture and not flawed human reasoning and opinion.
Please move on.
lmorovan,
I agree with that statement and I have never said anything otherwise. You did not make a clear statement and said that God cannot exist outside of the universe, NJMARK50 reacted to that and said that he also exists outside of the universe because He made the univserse and it cannot contain Him. I believe we are all in agreement on this topic.
Sassy,
As a fellow believer, you are qualified to add to any discussion that takes place here. Do not be intimidated, we can all learn from each other.
lmorovan,
NJMARK50 also said "Also, God exists outside this universe and is not subject to its laws. Scripture tells us that the heavens - the universe - cannot contain Him." in post 4585 after you said "God can never exist outside of the universe, or He would not be Omnipresent."
I think it was a miscommunication. It looks like he was reacting to the statement that you made that was not clear.
lmorovan,
Ask him to clarify, I am sure that he will.
lmorovan,
Thank you for clarifying your statement because it was not clear at all.
4583
killianpsi,
There are a couple of other possibilities.
1. The galaxies could have been closer when God first created them.
2. God could have created the light between the stars and the earth along with a fully functionaly universe.
lmorovan,
I haven't made anything personal. I thought you wanted some time to study what we discussed yesterday. You should take some time and read what the Bible says so that you are better prepared to defend what you believe and so you don't need to ignore verses that don't fit your beliefs. You also need to treat the Word consistently.
If you want to discuss something, let's discuss your belief that God is limited to the universe that He created. I will wait for you to list the Bible verses that teach that. God is infinite, the universe is finite.
Before you accuse me of putting words in your mouth you said this in one of your posts:
"God can never exist outside of the universe, or He would not be Omnipresent."
2 Chronicles 2:6
6 “But who is able to build a house for Him, for the heavens and the highest heavens cannot contain Him? So who am I, that I should build a house for Him, except to burn incense before Him?
Exodus 20:11
11 “For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
It is interesting that someone who believes that God's existence is limited to the universe that He created, that nobody is in heaven or hell, soul sleep and doesn't deal with Scripture in a consistent manner tries to change the subject again.
lmorovan,
If I have attributed to you things that you did not mean or say today, please tell me where I was in error and please clarify your point of view. This medium of communication is limited in its form.
You are certainly free not to respond to my posts but I will continue to share my beliefs supported by Scripture if I see doctrines proclaimed that I believe are not taught in Scripture.
You are still ignoring the question on the different gospels and the words of Christ on the cross. Why?
You said "May the truth always be revealed by the power of the Holy Spirit.".
I say Amen! I have no fear of the truth in the Bible. If you believe you are right, please convince me by answering my questions as I and others have answered yours. I seek to know and believe the truth.
lmorovan,
With all due respect, I am not the one changing topics. Just to recap.
You proclaimed that you believe in the doctrine of Soul Sleep.
I disagreed and presented many Scriptures that show that when we die, we do not lose consciousness until judgement day. One of those verses was the transfiguration account in Matthew, where it says that Jesus was transfigured before them and they saw Jesus talking with Moses and Elijah, who if the doctrine of Soul Sleep was true, could not be aware and talking with Jesus. You then took the position of questioning Matthew's account since he was not present according to the text itself, I questioned that, and presented the other gospel accounts to further question your reasoning. You then presented the idea that the disciples were told not to tell anyone about the vision that they had seen, which I believe you were using to infer that they witnessed a vision in a dream while sleeping and you have never stated that you had a different point to make. I then showed you further evidence that this was not the case by quoting the gospel of Luke where it clearly states that they were wide awake during the transfiguration event. You then went in a different direction and said that you see that there is a problem with the different accounts because Luke tells us that the disciples were sleeping and then were fully awake before the event took place. Myself and others then asked you if you applied the same reasoning to other gospel differences, one being the words of Jesus on the cross. You have never answered that.
So after all of that, we were not discussing the transfiguration event itself, its purpose, when it happened or anything else. Nobody changed topics, we just followed you as you changed the topics because that is where you led us. Now you raised even more questions and some of them have already been answered during today's dialogue.
It was an actual event and not a vision, they were awake.
I am not diminishing any part of the gospels, you are, and I agree it is unsafe and misleading. The disciples were awake, lucid and saw Jesus transfigured and talking with Moses and Elijah, who were dead, but were aware, and conversing with Jesus. That cannot be reconciled with the doctrine of Soul Sleep.
lmorovan,
You are not answering the question. You are having the problem with the different facts that were presented in the different gospel accounts of the transfiguration, I do not.
Do you have the same problem with the gospels and Christ's words on the cross? Two other participants today have made that very valid point several times and you have completely ignored it each time.
There are several here that are trying to reason with you about what the Bible says, that is hard to do when you do not address valid points that are being made. You need to address the points made and the Bible verses presented before I will continue to dialogue with you on this topic, I can only make a valid point so many times only to have it ignored so many times. I will wait for you to address the points made.
lmorovan,
I fail to see your point, I am sorry. It is not different information that Luke is providing, it is additional information.
If a reporter from ABC says reports that two cars crashed at the intersection of 5th and Main and a reporter from NBC reports that a black BMW 530 crashed going Westbound into a white Toyota Corolla at the intersection of 5th and Main, is the NBC reporter contradicting the ABC reporter?
Did you review post number 4730? If you haven't yet done so, read it and apply the same reasoning to it as you are doing to the transfiguration accounts in the gospels.
Luke states that they were asleep before they saw Jesus transfigured and he even says that they were wide awake when they saw the transfiguration of Christ. Just because the other accounts don't present the fact that they were sleeping prior to them seeing the transfiguration presents no problem at all. The most important information is that they were wide awake when they saw Jesus transfigured and speaking with Moses and Elijah.
killianpsi,
I completely agree and please post more often! The more the merrier!
I need to get some things done around here, but I enjoyed today's dialogue, it definitely got me into the Word.
lmorovan,
Then why do you refuse to see that Luke is providing different information that the others? We have come to this point because you refuse to entertain the idea that your belief in Soul Sleep is incorrect because it looks like you have built many other beliefs on top of it or in conjunction with it.
Do you believe that the 3 disciples saw an actual event that we refer to as the transfiguration or not? If you don't, please provide Scriptural support for your view, because you have not done so up until this point.
We need to not try to conform the Bible to our views, but our views to the Bible.
If you consider the gospel of Luke inspired and the infallible Word of God, then you must accept that the 3 disciples were wide awake when they saw Jesus transfigured and talking with Moses and Elijah.
NJMARK50,
I see this coming more and more into focus as time moves on. Why do we have the President that we have today? Who would be President today if the Church was gone? You can see where unbelievers want to take this world and Who is restraining them.
lmorovan,
You are free to believe that. Can we take it a step further?
Do you believe that the book of Luke is the inspired and infallible Word of God or do you believe we should reject it as Scripture because of what you believe is a irreconcilable difference?