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lmorovan,
Do you believe that people can resist the call of the Holy Spirit?
lmorovan,
So you believe that the angels and Adam and Eve were created perfectly with free will. Do you believe they exercised their free will when they chose to sin against God? Was God sovereign? Were their choices predestined? I am trying to understand your reasoning because it seems inconsistent.
lmorovan,
Is it possible that God permits or allows people to reject His free gift of salvation rather than what amounts to forcing them to believe?
We all agree that not everyone will be saved.
1 Timothy 2:3-6
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
If it is God's will that all men are saved but all men are not saved, what does that tell you?
lmorovan,
Did God predestine the angels to fall? Did God predestine Adam and Eve to fall?
Romans 8:29
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
1 Peter 1:1-2
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen
2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
killianpsi,
I agree. You see many examples of mankind exercising his free will in rebellion against God and being punished for it.
Some may say that man cannot have free will with God's sovereignty. I must ask them, was God sovereign before mankind sinned?
lmorovan,
This doesn't have anything to do with labels. It is disappointing that you are not prepared to support your beliefs with Scripture, but that as you have said, is your choice. I have never believed that learning what is true from the Scriptures was a game.
Thank you killianpsi.
lmorovan, will you please interpret those verses in a way that support your belief that God died for only the elect?
lmorovan,
I only ask that you interpret the Scriptures in a manner that is consistent and supports your view. Are you willing to approach them with a open mind? I wasn't planning on presenting my views, just Bible verses.
lmorovan,
Will you interpret some verses for me?
lmorovan,
I disagree, by your argument you are selecting, since you are picking some verses over others.
lmorovan,
Was Christ's sacrifice sufficient for the sins of all mankind, both the elect and the non-elect?
1 Peter 3:18
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
rictabob,
I don't have very much time today, I believe you quoted from the KJV, nothing wrong with that, here are two other versions, the NIV and the NASB. I will also provide the the meaning of the original Hebrew word from a Strong's lexicon.
1 Samuel 28:7
7 Saul then said to his attendants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her.”
“There is one in Endor,” they said.
1 Samuel 28:7
7 Then Saul said to his servants, “Seek for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “Behold, there is a woman who is a medium at En-dor.”
This is from the RSV
1 Samuel 28:7
7 Then Saul said to his servants, “Seek out for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “Behold, there is a medium at Endor.”
1172 ba`alah { bah-al-aw’}
from of 1167; TWOT - 262b; n f
AV - mistress 2, hath (a familiar spirit) 2; 4
GK - 1266 { בַּעֲלָה }
1) mistress, female owner
2) sorceress, necromancer (noun of relationship)
178 ’owb { obe}
from the same as 1 (apparently through the idea of prattling a father’s name); TWOT - 37a; n m
AV - familiar spirit(s) 16, bottles 1; 17
GK - 199 { אֹוב } & 200 { אֹוב }
1) water skin bottle
2) necromancer
1b) necromancer, one who evokes the dead
1c) ghost, spirit of a dead one
1d) practice of necromancy
3) one that has a familiar spirit
Christianity under attack.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/religion/3777665.html
http://www.randomhouse.com/doubleday/davinci/
http://www.fsu.edu/news/2006/04/04/ice.walk/
I can't think of any other belief system that is attacked so viciously by the unbelieving world, can you?
Even though I don't like to see Christianity attacked it increases my faith, because Satan attacks the truth because he is the father of lies.
ricktabob,
I understand you think it is possible that it was a demonic spirit and not Samuel, but don't you agree that if that was the case that it was a very important fact for God to leave out? The plain reading of the text repeatedly says that it was Samuel, that is why I hold that position, I don't see any reason to infer anything into the passage. I don't think that God was tricked in any way.
I don't want to argue, so I will leave it at this, that if Saul was speaking to a demon, I believe that such an important fact would be called out and since it wasn't, I cannot read into the text what is not stated, but I understand your reasoning.
Do you believe that when we physically die, our soul and conscience goes to sleep until we are bodily resurrected?
Thanks.
rictabob,
I would like to point out a couple things about this discussion.
The discussion of this portion of Scripture came about because we were discussing the idea of Soul Sleep. I do not know what your position is on this topic, would you mind telling us?
As we were discussing Soul Sleep, I brought up this portion of Scripture to show that Samuel, although physically dead, was spiritually alive. lmorovan proposed a hypothesis that God made an exception in this case, therefore I put forth the question about where else in Scripture God made an exception.
You then presented some verses where you believe God made an exception regarding Sabbath laws. Now to my points.
The law was not given to mankind to be a burden upon the faithful followers of God. Throughout Scripture it is taught that the Spirit of the law is what is important, not the letter of the law.
Jesus makes this clear in the verses that you presented. David was not guilty because he broke the letter of the law, not the spirit of the law. God did not require his faithful servant, David, to starve a few feet from nourishment and he was found to be blameless. Matthew 12:1-9 shows that this is true. Jesus even says that although the priests work on the Sabbath, they are blameless because they were serving God. Although they broke the letter of the law, they obeyed the Spirit of the law and that was Jesus' point.
Jesus made it even more clear, when he demonstrated that even obeying the letter of the law was insufficient, but that we must obey the Spirit of the law.
Matthew 5:21-28
21 “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’
22 “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
23 “Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
24 leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering.
25 “Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
26 “Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’;
28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Having said this, I believe that the Spirit of the law is what determines a sinful act, not necessarily the letter of the law. This is why David and the priests were held blameless for doing "work" on the Sabbath. Here is another example from Jesus Himself.
Matthew 12:10-12
10 And a man was there whose hand was withered. And they questioned Jesus, asking, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”—so that they might accuse Him.
11 And He said to them, “What man is there among you who has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out?
12 “How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep! So then, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”
We know that our Lord was sinless.
Now, getting back to lmorovan's original hypothesis that God made an exception for Saul to consult a medium and bring up the spirit of Samuel for consultation.
I will say with all of my heart, that you will not find a verse in the Bible where God gives and exception or free pass to sin against Him and that is what would have had to had taken place in the story of Saul, the medium and Samuel. What we find thankfully, is the exact opposite.
1 Chronicles 10:13
13 So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the Lord, because of the word of the Lord which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it,
God did not give Saul an exception to sin against Him in this case, not only did he break the letter of the law, he broke the Spirit of the law too.
One last point about Soul Sleep and the passage we discussed. The text clearly says that it was Samuel who was brought up by the medium. If it wasn't, I have no doubt that God's Word would have made that point very clear because it would change the entire meaning and purpose of the event.
Thank you for the discussion.
killianpsi,
I just don't think that the ark was air tight and had at least one window.
Genesis 6:16
16 “You shall make a window for the ark, and finish it to a cubit from the top; and set the door of the ark in the side of it; you shall make it with lower, second, and third decks.
I don't think there was any problem with them receiving oxygen.
killianpsi,
It isn't very surprising, it was a miracle, something they can't accept, so they decide to put forth what amounts to a dumb hypothesis.
excel,
Another false, Gnostic gospel.
killianpsi,
The Christ rejectors are foolish. They try and explain away miracles through natural occurances. They try and understand the supernatural act of creation by looking at what was created.
Romans 1:22
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
Sassy,
Thank you so much for sharing, that was beautiful!
killianpsi,
1. I agree.
2. I agree.
3. I disagree. The earth was full of oxygen before the flood, and I think there was enough for 8 people to survive not only for one year but many, many years. The Bible also infers through the dove story that plant life did indeed survive outside of the ark.
killianpsi,
I agree.
killianpsi,
I think that the fruit was more mysterious than that from reading these verses.
Genesis 3:22-24
22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—
23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.
Although the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil must have been different, we both could be right in our speculation.
lmorovan,
But as a Christian, why would you choose not to believe it? I don't understand.
lmorovan,
I agree that it comes down to faith.
I believe that the purpose of Noah's Ark was to preserve forms of life that could not survive the flood waters. There is much evidence that a lot of sea life did perish in the flood, but not all. I don't see any reason to have a whale on board for instance.
For me, God said it, I believe it, that settles it.
Here is the latest from a Christ rejecting world.
http://www.physorg.com/news63367761.html
lmorovan,
If you believe that the Bible is God's infallible Word I don't understand why you struggle believing what it says?
Does the Bible say that Noah took marine animals on the ark or seeds? I don't see that being necessary.
killianpsi,
1. I agree. Further discussion would lead us to God's sovereignty and free will. I don't think that there is Biblical evidence to believe that either of those changed after the fall of man.
2. Again, I agree. We can only speculate, sometimes it is fun.
Thank you for responding.
Here are some more intriguing questions.
1. Did God know that Adam and Eve would sin when He created them?
2. What would have happened had Adam rejected the temptation to eat the fruit after Eve had already eaten?
lmorovan,
What follows is from another website, but it may interest you.
The only thing the Bible tells us concerning the Garden of Eden’s location is found in Genesis 2:10-14, “A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold…The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush. The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.” The exact identities of the Pishon and Havilah rivers is unknown, but the Tigris and Euphrates rivers are well known. If the Tigris and Euphrates mentioned there are the same rivers by those names today, that would put the Garden of Eden somewhere in the middle east, likely in Iraq. People have searched for the Garden of Eden for centuries to no avail. There are various locations that people claim to be the original location of the Garden of Eden, but we cannot be sure. What happened to the Garden of Eden? The Bible does not specifically say. It is likely that the Garden of Eden was completely destroyed in the Flood.
lmorovan,
What purpose would the trees serve today in a fallen world?
Do you believe that the account of Noah's flood that is recorded in Genesis is accurate and happened as it says that it happened?
lmorovan,
What about Noah's flood?
lmorovan,
No, do you?
lmorovan,
How would you appeal to someone who says they are a Christian and believes that we must suffer in purgatory before we can enter heaven and then said this:
If I express an opinion or a belief and you or anyone doesn't agree, or feel offended by it, I will not apologise. What the Holy Spirit convinces me to believe is what I believe and I will not apologise for what I believe. Unless you ask me to be a hypocrite.
Would you appeal to them? If you say you would, how would you go about it? If you say you would not, why not?
ricktabob,
Thank you too.
I found this article that I think does an excellent job of getting to the root of what I believe is causing much of the disagreement here.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v24/i3/eisegesis.asp
ricktabob,
I agree. The text does not support the view that the 3 disciples all had a vision. The only reason you are focusing on the word "vision" is that is what was translated in one of the versions. Jesus commanded them not to tell anyone what they had seen, not to keep a vision to themselves. If they saw a vision, it would say that they saw a vision, it does not. Luke is perfectly clear on this point and so are the other gospels as far as that is concerned. The Lord did not come to them in a vision, they were wide awake and saw Jesus transfigured before them and speaking with Moses and Elijah. The plain reading of the text would not lead to the conclusion that you have drawn.
Just because you believe in Soul Sleep doesn't really matter to me, when you die, you will see that what the Bible says on the subject is true and that Soul Sleep isn't true when as a Christian you are ushered into the presence of the Lord. What does matter to me is your handling of the Word in order to try and justify your belief.
ricktabob,
You seem to be really trying to read between the lines to allow for your belief in Soul Sleep. Nowhere in the text does it allow for such an interpretation. The text repeatedly declares that it was Samuel. God commanded people not to consult with mediums for a reason and it wasn't because it wasn't possible.
The Lord didn't answer Saul, Samuel did.
There are many verses in the New Testement as well that show that the belief in Soul Sleep is incorrect.
Here is only one.
Revelation 6:9-11
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
ricatabob,
Luke 9:32-33
32 Now Peter and his companions had been overcome with sleep; but when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men standing with Him.
33 And as these were leaving Him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here; let us make three tabernacles: one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah”—not realizing what he was saying.
Luke 9:36
36 And when the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent, and reported to no one in those days any of the things which they had seen.