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So basically there is no finished product, don't expect anything great from the power consumption, no dates for when testing will happen and now they are saying "we are not there yet" after all the PRs over the years saying otherwise... And what "plan" do they need to discuss with Intertek, just hook the thing up to the correct testing equipment as soon as it is available... New year feels just like the old year. And the one before that. At this point I wish this was a scam, if played right and with some luck those can make you a lot more money. This is just a joke...
What buyout?? Buyout of what? There is no product whatsoever as far as the public knows. They won't convince anyone that some company offered to buy them out with 0 tests performed so far. And anyone with a minimum of common sense will see that it makes no sense to announce a buyout literally days before you will perform efficiency tests that will make or break your entire company and product. No seller would sell when they are days away from potentially being worth far far more and no buyer would buy a completely untested product. So no investor would believe something like that and buy into it.
Truth is they have backed themselves into a corner and pretty much any announcement other than actual results or meaningful progress will make this tank even further. Nobody will stand for more delays and more BS. The only way for them to dump these alleged shares they hold is to deliver a real product. I think even efficiency results won't make this go much higher since it will be open to interpretation and attacked by many. It is only when it moves towards production and towards actually making money that the real rise in pps will happen.
Although we cannot fault tax loss selling at this time of year,
They're doing some endurance testing allright, testing investors... And I think we've exceeded their expectations for carrot-following. At least they went from delaying by months to delaying by a week or two. After the 21st they'll delay by a few days for a while and then give updates every hour saying "almost" for another month or so...
Normally i'd say it's not the best idea to release results during the holidays but at this point I want them to just get it over with and release the second they have them... Might even be better for longs if we get a chance to get some before it gets on other radars.
I don't think they really care about investors at all, and they even pretty much admitted that by saying they don't care about the pps. Not to mention the way we are treated over the phone (even when being mostly positive) and on Facebook. If they cared about investors they would nor put out the PRs they do and would make an effort to be transparent, patient and polite. But hopefully they do come up with what they promised and make the years of waiting worth it. One way or another I hope we know soon, I'm getting tired.
It just might... There may be a celebration party there after all. Just not for the investors, not most of them at least :)
Lol or packing for a warm country somewhere far away...
They're doing that to us. With all the delays, carrots, green lights, fluffy PRs, Facebook arguing and so on. Turning everyone crazy... Two years ago this board used to be really friendly and relaxed. Even informative. Everyone was holding hands singing around the fire and planning the big party in Belize or wherever, now even the longs are fighting each other.
It's all pretty confusing and unclear. I used to think that they meant they would release the video this week while testing was happening. This would mean they have a video already and are waiting to release it. But after Gold pointed out that it probably means something else I tend to think that makes more sense and they probably mean they will have a video be shot while testing is happening at Intertek and the video will be released straight away, right after testing while the results will follow a little later. And that's what I think right now, as of today, but like I said I am far from sure about any of it and with WDRP's track record even if they released a clear PR saying we will release this exact info on this exact date (not that that would ever happen) it would still not mean a whole lot. To sum it up my guess currently is a video of the testing Friday or Monday and some numbers next week or week after at the latest...
If we won't get something soon then why promise it in the last PR? They would not have PRed that if the intention was to only release info next year. Well, at least a normal company would not have... You may be right that Intertek might stall to look like they did a lot but honestly speaking a delay like that is not necessary. The type of testing required is not all that complex or all that different from existing electric tankless units. It's just a long list of different scenarios to go through, all the magnetron configurations, different flow rates, different input temperatures etc. and maybe multiple measurements of each setup. Once done the results should be fairly easy to organize and present. Plus, while stalling might make them look like they did more work stalling too much might make their customers feel like they are dealing with an inefficient operation and unnecessary delays. Anyway, guess we will see...
Depends where you put the pauses in the sentence, mostly if you put one after "recording". "A video recording while undergoing ... testing" could mean a video of the unit undergoing testing. Could go either way really, based on the wording, which is pretty unclear. But it makes more sense for it to be a video of the testing. If they were talking about another video that they already have and that is unrelated to the testing why wait to release it exactly during the time the unit is being tested? Once again we are left guessing about a PR instead of getting a list of concise facts and dates.
Hmmm now that you point that out I think you are probably right... Well, I'm not really sure one way or another, it is definitely worded funny. That might mean a video of it being tested right after the tests and the results after, once they are put together. That does make sense since if they already have a video it would make no sense to wait until the unit is undergoing testing to release it and if they do not have one it obviously would be shot during testing. Either way we better get something soon, hopefully next week and before the holidays.
That's what I read too, video this week (possibly because they already have it filmed) and results after tests are done so not this week, most likely next. REALLY hope we don't have to wait until after the holidays. If testing really is done this Friday and there are no problems with the unit and they already have the video then waiting another month or whatever would be a really bad sign, a sign that something went wrong and they are stalling or cooking the results...
I think you guys are reading a little too much into this whole scalability thing. All they are saying is that they will not only test the entire unit the way it will work in it's real life application but will also test if n number of magnetrons produce n times the heat while using n times the energy compared to 1 magnetron. This is an important piece of information because they want to either have a range of products or license the technology to one or more companies that will have a range of products. And it is not a given, plenty of technologies don't scale in a linear way. For example if the 4 magnetron unit is a point of use unit (which is what I think is the case) a 1 magnetron one could be used in a coffee maker or something small like that, and a 8-10 magnetron one could be a point of entry unit. Maybe 2 magnetrons for a camper or whatever...
And I believe that is what they mean by manual firing, sometimes turn all of them on and sometimes just some, not that someone will sit there and try to achieve some firing pattern that normally would happen automatically but is now broken, like someone was saying. I don't think they would sent the unit in for testing with any part of it not being fully operational.
That is just my guess but I do agree the PR was pretty murky. It would be nice if when they release the video or whatever is next on the list they also clarify what exactly is going to happen at intertek and why, if this is an actual product or just a prototype to demonstrate the technology, how soon after we can expect numbers, what the status of finding manufacturers (or companies interested in using the technology) is and so on.
First of all I wouldn't say it is "well documented" that Andrew is a "notorious scamster".
Second of all he is only a IR contractor, far from absolute proof that the entire operation is a scam.
Third the AMF deal is pretty much dead and buried and there was never anything there to start with. There have been many thousands of posts going over that in every detail possible and there was never any proof of any kind that the company did anything wrong. Chills are being lifter etc.
The penny stock world is full of slightly shady individuals and dealings so it is hard to start something from scratch and not be somehow linked by a number of degrees to someone who may have at some point been accused of something, proven or not. That isn't definitive proof of anything.
As far as the missed deadlines and misleading PRs, I do agree with that one. But that could just as easily be proof of incompetency, of lack of funds, of sheer bad luck, lack of experience, disagreements within the company, pressure from outside places (investors, partners etc) and a lot of other things. It isn't by any means definitive proof of this being a scam.
Bottom line is yes, not everything is rosy, there are definitely issues and we are all here complaining about them every day. But there is a VERY long way between that and saying it's all definitely a scam.
It is far from a given that efficiency is the same at any scale. That is not true at all for a lot of technologies. So they aren't stating the obvious there. And if that is true for their technology it is a pretty relevant and positive piece of information.
As far as you being convinced this is a scam, you have stated that countless times before and as everyone always tells you, providing proof for your statements goes a long way.
Read the same one, just not all of it. Not the important bit really.
Wanderport is eager to complete Intertek testing no later than the aforementioned dates (pending any unforeseen delays) and anticipates publicizing a video recording of the MCMHU while undergoing said performance efficiency testing at Intertek's laboratory. Further public release of Intertek lab test results will follow shortly thereafter.
PR Newswire (http://s.tt/1vPtw)
Yeah, I know, read it closer now, had missed the first sentence... Still, it's a firm date for testing, no issues with the unit, who knows maybe we might have something before Christmas...
That sounds like great news. Does it imply that we will have both the results and the video on the 6th? Since that is the date they mentioned previously... It is on'y 2 days from now so there can only be so many unforeseen delays till then... Is that what everyone else gets from that?
Never mind, read it closer, missed the first sentence, just more delays, using the holidays as even more delays... Sameo-sameo... Unfortunately it turned out to be what i thought it would be...
I believe eventually we'll have something worth the wait. Maybe not $1 a share or anything but at least 20c or so at the peak. But I'm not holding my breath for the 6th, these guys are so full of BS when it comes to where they really are vs what they promise that we're just going to be let down again...
I don't think so... Knowing these guys they will wait until the very last minute and then announce another delay. Just wait and see :( I really hope i'm wrong and this time is actually "THE" PR but... We'll see, fingers crossed.
That's true by definition for any stock out there. Well, with MMs in the picture it's a little more complicated but eventually it's true. What matters is at what prices the buy/sell happens. And generally when a transaction causes the price to drop it's considered a "sell" and the other way around. Lately we've had just selling, with no buying interest at all. Hopefully these guys deliver something verifiable soon and people start to get in (or get back in). At this point i wouldn't dream of buying because they've given us absolutely nothing but if they deliver anything at all, even not that amazing, I'd consider adding a few shares, even just for a quick flip if nothing else.
People are probably betting there will be more delays and maybe want to get back in sub-penny or just get out for good cause they are sick of this. And statistically, based on previous experience, more delays is not just possible, it's likely. Plus the holidays are coming, plenty of excuses for them for even more delays...
Nobody is saying this can't work, just that being a direct consumption device it won't achieve an over 1.0 efficiency. It obviously can work, as any cup of water in a microwave oven will prove.
And Edison's light bulb (about 130 years old, not over 200) may be constantly improved but the laws of physics that govern how it works and how efficient it is are EXACTLY the same as they were back then. Two bulbs with a century in-between them can be readily and directly compared as far as efficiency, just as you can compare completely different light technologies (CFL, HID, LED, etc) directly between each other and get a very accurate idea of which is more efficient and by how much. It was a known fact that incandescent bulbs are theoretically very inefficient so it was well understood that a technology would come along that would be better and several did. The same is the case with internal combustion engines but the technology is not there yet to improve on them (cheaply) but we know it will be at some point. That is not the case with existing tankelss electric units, they are very close to being as efficient as water heating can get. That is the entire point of theoretical maximum efficiency in physics, as they mentioned in one of the PRs.
Yeah that claim sounds fishy to me. In the PR where they spoke about efficiency, maybe a month back or so they clearly said current units are between 0.6something and 0.95 efficiency and their one is the best compared to anything out there. 1.0 being the max theoretically possible it puts their unit between 0.95 and 1.0, they have pretty much spelled it out there.
However, their 20-25% increase could refer to overall money spent on electricity at the end of a year of normal use in a home. For a traditional tankless electric (closest competition) that means a lot of waiting for water to get hot enough to use, so some waste there, and a lot of leaving the heating element really hot after use, yet more waste there. If the microwave unit gets the water up to temp much much faster and shuts down with no losses as soon as water stops flowing there could be a good amount of efficiency gains there. That added to the lower losses to the environment, by using water to cool the magnetrons or whatever, might be enough to account for the 20-25% claim but honestly I really doubt it. I'd guess more like 10-15%, if that, under normal use. When something has the words "preliminary" and "calculations" in it in a WDRP PR it doesn't mean a whole lot...
Really safe to say this won't revolutionize anyone's understanding of electricity or thermodynamics or the way efficiency is calculated. We are way past that stage with electricity, it's all very basic, well understood (by most...) stuff by now. This can still be a very successful product without bending the laws of physics. Without some type of mechanism to extract heat from the environment, of which there has been no talk, the amount of energy coming out as hot water WILL absolutely be LESS than the amount going in as electricity, using the formulas available. The two numbers will most likely be very close, at least 95% or so. Anyone clinging to any type of "new technology leading to previously unattainable efficiency" ideas will be very disappointed. I am sure the company will confirm this and they have hinted at it in one of the PRs. If they claim otherwise you will see a lot of people with a solid understanding of physics bail out in a hurry even though the numbers will sound great.
Lol, we have the first psych evaluation on the board and even a diagnostic, for multiple individuals no less! Can we also get a reading on their cholesterol levels, based on past PRs?
Joking aside, what they need to do better than last time is inform investors as soon as the plans change, not as late as possible on the day results were promised. If you will put out a PR anyway just to say there's a change of plans and no news yet then put out that PR as soon as you know there will be nothing on the day, don't delay as long as possible just to buy time. Basically keep investors informed of any change of plans as it happens. It will go a very long way as far as trust goes.
then we'll also have the opportunity to laugh and comment on YOUR inept work.
Wow... If that really is WDRP (and I am 99% sure it is, if it wasn't they'd say something) that is incredibly unprofessional and it comes as part of a pattern of unprofessional posts. Even assuming investors were overly aggressive and unreasonable it is still their obligation, and in their best interest, to treat them with respect and professionalism. But in this case WDRP is 110% responsible for the hot water (or lack of...) that they are in. So many promises and countless specific milestones and timelines that have had absolutely 0 come out of them. We have a giant amount of promises and absolutely nothing tangible at all to show for it. The speed they moved at was perhaps not a complete failure for a company that small working on a product that complex but the carrots they dangled again and again for years and the way they portrayed themselves in general were totally under their control. We aren't talking about one or two instances of not delivering what was promised, we are talking about years of not even being close to where they said they were.
So WDRP, since you read this, only AFTER you actually deliver something, anything at all, do you have the right to maybe have a short temper with impatient investors. For now you deserve every single snide comment thrown at you.
They may not be a scam but they certainly are a joke. A joke that gets less and less funny.
The problem really is that they have painted themselves as a proper, real company with a proper, real, revolutionary product about to be released. The truth is they are a tiny operation with essentially one guy tinkering part-time, tiny budget and not much else. Doesn't mean something awesome couldn't potentially come from it but it will be way more slow and painful than we all imagined and it may very well never happen at all...
As far as the PR I still have hope, they only delayed by 3 weeks or so until complete results, before all we were getting was "maybe" "something" "in the future". And we got an explanation of what happened which we generally did not get before. If it was a scam promising full results within weeks and giving specific temperature increases seems like a strange way to go about things but I guess we'll see... time to wait some more.
Doubt anyone hates it or us. People only trade for one reason, money. Probably someone wants it to drop so that they can get in lower tomorrow or so that it doesn't jump too high if there's good news.
As far as tomorrow goes i'm not holding my breath. The Three Stooges have let us down way too many times before. There's a good chance for meaningful news but we have to be realistic and look at past patterns. Good luck to all of us I guess, hope this is it...
Magnetrons are a completely different animal and it depends on how you determine or measure efficiency.
You say 12,000 Btu/hr of cooling energy. If this is achieved the traditional way, with a compressor, in an enclosed space without the help of the outside environment, then by definition you have to put that exact amount of energy (or more to account for losses) into the compressor. Heat pumps that just move heat from one environment to another are different.
It is like saying that the fan (or water pump or whatever) in a car engine is single-handedly cooling the engine removing a huge amount of heat with only a tiny amount of current. Technically yes you are putting a little 12V current in and removing thousands of btus of heat. But it is obvious that the entire process is dependent on a very specific setup where you have a radiator AWAY from the engine with a lot of COOLER air running over it. So the environment is doing the work, not your little electric motor or little pump. In the case of the water heater the environment is obviously cooler than the water so it would actually work AGAINST you. It is the equivalent of you trying to cool your car engine if the outside temperature is 300 F. All of a sudden to achieve the same temperatures you need to actually honestly spend the full amount of energy, you will need a giant AC system with a compressor etc to keep the engine at a reasonable temperature. If your radiator goes to 300 F normally and surrounding air is 300F then you get no cooling, you need to raise your radiator temperature to 500F or whatever, which takes a lot of energy.
The bottom line of the problem with your reasoning is that you are interchanging the terms efficiency and COP. COP only applies to a heat pumps and does not apply here. See here, the efficiency section. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump#Efficiency
In our specific case unless there is a heat pump setup, where heat can be transferred AWAY from something and into the water, then the efficiency will be under 100%.
That's a great video. And there should be a lot less concern with waves cancelling each other out (assuming that happens) if each magnetron is in its own chamber. And those guys talk about the size and shape of the chamber being important just like Robert did. That said, that's a pretty small amount of water to heat in a minute... And I wouldn't want to stand too close to his setup :)
Bottom line I'd say it's definitely possible to heat enough water to shower in using microwaves. Main question is how much energy does it need going in. And a bunch of other little questions.
The product is definitely unique in the way it functions, in the issues that have to be dealt with in terms of safety, in the speed with which it gets up to temperature and a host of other things. This is why testing would need to be somewhat different from conventional units. Just like when testing hybrid cars that have the capability to drive on electricity alone or switch off their engines at traffic lights.
But this doesn't mean that it is in any way different in terms of efficiency. When it comes to that it does not matter at all what they technology is. You have an amount of electricity or gas or coal or wood or whatever going in and an amount of energy coming out in the form of hot water. Knowing how much energy is stored in any of those fuel/energy types u can easily calculate overall efficiency and compare totally different technologies against each other in a meaningful way. Or do it in a more practical way and just factor in money in vs hot water out.
Same as plug in hybrid cars have a certain amount of electricity going in, a certain amount of gas going in (in some cases) and a number of miles coming out. You can very easily compare the cost to run for a year with the cost for a traditional car with no fancy tech. And just like in the case of the water heater plug in cars work best in specific scenarios and no so great in others so different use cases will skew the comparison towards one technology or another. And at the end of the day it also means that even if a new technology isn't better in every way than existing ones it may still find a place in the market and thrive. So if this heater is not significantly more efficient than existing tankless electric ones when run on a traditional always-on type test (which i don't believe it will be) it will not in any way mean it's a failure.
As far as it heating water efficiently enough to be marketed as a water heater... Really depends on your definition of "efficient enough". Personally I think there was never any doubt that it can heat water and it can be called a water heater. The question is exactly how efficient it is (specifically is it competitive), how much it will cost, which scenarios is it best suited to, what are it's advantages, etc etc.
Relax, what I was saying is that there is no way to ADD to the amount of energy going in through the cord. Getting an efficiency rating over 100% would mean all the energy going in is used and then some more ON TOP OF THAT. This would mean energy is being created out of nothing. This would be the case if there is more energy coming out then there is going in.
Also, I have never said they can't heat water with this technology. And I'm not raining on anybody's parade. I am heavily invested and have been for over 2 years. All I am saying is that this cannot possibly be significantly more efficient than an existing electric tankless unit that genuinely gets close to 100% efficiency. And WDRP acknowledged there are such units out there. There are numerous possible advantages that this unit could have over those, which I have listed several times, I won't go into them again.
Everybody who ever heated a cup of water in a microwave knows this technology is perfectly feasible in theory. But some longs need a bit of a reality check as far as what to expect in terms of efficiency numbers. That doesn't mean this product and company don't have great potential, which is why we are all here.
It really doesn't matter what the specific method of heating water is, it really all comes down to energy going in (as electricity through the cord) and energy coming out (as a certain volume of water heated by a certain number of degrees plus some losses to the environment). Those numbers will always be equal, no matter what. It is the same in every single field of science, every technology out there, every application of physics really. Energy in is always equal to energy out, no exceptions, ever.
I believe an audio amplifier only takes electricity from its power cord and uses that to boost the audio signal. Like having two wires go in, one with 45 W and the other with 855 W and having one wire with 900W come out. Probably more like 1000 W plus 45 W in to make up for losses.
Essentially Hockmir is right, there is absolutely no way to create energy out of nothing. And the only way this will have an efficiency rating over 1.00 will be if it acts as a heat pump somehow and extracts heat out of the environment but I really doubt that is the case here. People say this is "new technology" and therefore we can't calculate its efficiency but that is not how the laws of physics work, new technology only allows you to approach the theoretical maximum possible, 100%, never to exceed it.
Really no point going back and forth over what should have happened today. Obviously both sides have a point. They did say they'd release some details before the 15th and based on a very strong previous pattern of Thursday releases it wasn't unreasonable to expect something today. At the same time they never ever said or implied in any way that they would release anything today. Perhaps they will release things on several days next week to drum up interest, perhaps there were more delays, either with Sandy or something else... If we have nothing on the 15th then yes, absolutely we should start sharpening the pitchforks...
In other news, the volume seems to be stirring... Someone knows something maybe. Any news anywhere? I don't see anything.
Trying to understand WDRP's phase numbers is a fool's game, they don't follow the decimal system, or any numerical system that humans understand for that matter. All you need is faith :) . Which is good cause that's all we got anyway.