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Thus further reinforcing that we may take it or leave it, but if we want to see profits from our initial investment then we should.
That statement to me sounds as though as the PDR exchange prospers the PPS will not, why else make the distinction with statements like If you believe you can make a better income in the present system, then stay. and But when you see PDRs trading with a higher PPS day in and day out and night in and night out and weekends too
Like when we are doing better than you, you will be sorry you didn't move.
Quite the subtle threat, but present none the less.
O' well kids B-day today, must run, I'll be back for more of the stimulating conversation later...
Agreed, it does not concern me in respect to my personal holding as I do not intend to move to the exchange until maybe after it is tested, then who knows and the guarantee will likely no longer be available to me at that time. However it does concern me in the fact that IF it is not true and or honored then it is was blatant lie to the shareholders, and therefore devalues the company's word and public image. Such a thing would surely have economic repercussions soon to follow as investor trust waned bringing the underlying PPS with it.
ditto, were I to move it would be after the system was established, tested, and confirmed viable. Such a system is bound to be complex and must be water tight from all angles. Personally I program for a living and can say with certainty that no matter how much you test in the lab, there will be flaws found by the users once the product is fielded, and where money is involved there will be people trying to cheat the system.
A fools game to take it from launch IMHO.
Just out of curiosity, IF you were to pull certs and move to the PDR exchange, would you request further proof of your guarantee, or would you believe what you have stated thus far that the PR'd guarantee was legally binding enough. And IF they did not hold up their end of the deal 1 year later, what exactly would you do?
That depends as well, I define ignorance as a lack of knowledge, therefore the misinformed could be corralled with the other sheep.
I personally would consider talking trash as inciting discontent with intent to cause negative opinions. Voicing a negative opinion is oft part of the understanding process.
Were we all to believe everything without question in the end would find we knew far less than if we had questioned along the way.
Silly to talk trash about a company they own/we own that depends heavily on how you define talk trash, if you mean not believing it all and blindly supporting things that are yet to be explained, then on this I have to disagree.
Personally I believe freedom of speech entitles you to an opinion, even if it is a belligerent one. And above and beyond that stake in the company entitles you to question whatever you so choose about their dealings.
The only breaking point is if you do it intelligently or ignorantly.
That is somewhat the point I have been trying to make.
Once again consider the following scenario.
Shares currently trade at approximately %14 of what they are reported to be worth just next week, with a promise (Guarantee) of 2X that in 2 years 4X in 4 years.
Now if that was a guaranteed legally binding scenario then immediately there is a %86 gain when the PDR's start trading (.01 being a pre sales estimate mind you not a guarantee) and a $100 investment would net you a $714 return right from the get go and $1428 in two years. Start adding zeros to the original numbers and the returns start getting staggering real quick.
Now if this was legally binding and the real world believed that then one would have to ask what fool would not invest in this for their "Guaranteed" return.
Then one would have to step back and say wait a minute, IF this were true then exactly WHY isn't everyone doing it, it certainly is not because hundreds of people kept it this great big secret on a public forum. Why is it that the power players are not dropping thousands on such a "Guaranteed" return? Is it because they do not like making money? Or is it because everything from common sense to experience is telling them it is too good to be true? Or is it that the lack of information, supporting documentation to all of the promises, no details, or even so much as a detailed overview of the processes to come.
I swear read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_game does it not sound familiar? Many people placing confidence bets while the prize is moved around? 10 will get you 20, where is the ball now?
Now I am sure I will be called a basher hence forth because I have grown dissatisfied with the turn of events as of late. And my posts have turned from supporting to questioning. It is not some calculated ploy to drive down the PPS, it is however voicing what I see as a lot of concern over a stream of promises without delivering on any of them yet.
And if I am proved wrong I will be happy no doubt due to the fact I stand to profit if this DOES work out in the end. So I am not the new anti PNMS spokesperson. But I am sitting the fence on the whole great company / scam debate until someone provides some real answers.
I have, and I would love to share your enthusiasm, however this stance I have developed is one of experience. I have heard hundreds of publicly stated "Guarantees" from many different sources and seen many of them fall completely through, and seen many public statements to the effect of those statements were forward looking at the time we believed we could "Guarantee" our statements.
And though it may appear as though I am being intentionally combative here, I can Guarantee that there is no such thing as a contractual arrangement, nor legally binding statement between the poster of an on line statement and an anonymous internet reader.
I have yet to receive a written guarantee, is it something you only get AFTER you comply with their request? And buy what means is it enforceable?
If the company cannot fulfill the obligation and goes bankrupt, who honors my guarantee?
I would jump on the cheer leading bandwagon and shake my pom poms right along with the others IF they were to release ANYTHING that could be construed as legally binding.
The promises sound appealing, hence the fact I invested in the first place, but do not kid yourself that at this stage that the information they have released is in any way legally binding.
Matter of perspective
An enforceable warranty on the promise of quality of a product or formal promise by one person to take responsibility for the debts or obligations of another person if that person fails to meet them.
www.ontarioequity.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi
enforceable being the key word here.
Now if we look at
http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=255529
we see at the bottom
Forward-looking statements are not historical facts as "forward-looking statements" defined in the Private Securities Litigation Reform of 1995. Forward-looking statements are not guarantees of future performance. Our forward-looking statements are the result of profound analysis on trends in our globalizing economies that we anticipate in our industry. It is our good faith vision and estimate of the effect on the globalization, integration and electronic business trends will have on our company. Our statements are also subject to risks and uncertainties beyond our reasonable control that could cause the results of operations to differ materially from those reflected in our forward-looking statements.
So which is the REAL guarantee the guarantee or the guarantee at the bottom that says there is no guarantee?
It is simply a choice of which one you want to believe
Err, sorry, that is of course why they put that disclaimer at the bottom that in plain english non legaleze states "Just because we are stating it, doesn't by any means we are actually going to do it and or are we obligated to do so"
Part of the shell game, shuffle, shuffle, shuffle, 10 will get you 20, where is your money now...
The just sell statment was not aimed at you,
And I for one have never seen a single statment promising you find that they gladly return the money that you paid for the product, and give you a gift certificate for all of your troubles
See that is the point, I could see it if it was a buy out, but it is not, they are not "getting rid of my shares" they are just starting up something new and saying that I have to move them (Only if I ever want to see my money again mind you, of course it is my choice), I am trading out of an SEP, and yes I know they have a deal with a bank that is supposed to allow me to move my SEP to them to get into the PDR exchange. However what recourse do I have if this is all a bust, at least in the US market there is the SEC.
Whose legal system will govern the exchange, IF they have lied to us all and screw us all, do we have to take them to court in panama?
See the big picture here is that I really do want to be wrong, I really do of course want this all to work out in the end and make a pile of money, however I am no lemming. And I DO see a huge cliff on the horizon, the only question is am I to be expected to follow everyone else off of it, or am I entitled to stop along the way and ask what the heck are we doing here guys?
There are a few here that answer questions, and give opinions with substance rather than shout Yeah, Yeah and hoorah. If not for answers I implore these people for their thoughts on real questions. I for one have real money invested, however what started as a calculated risk has turned into a shell game and I feel as though I rightfully purchased my right to question ANY action of this company right now.
This is not because I am trying to cast doubt on the validity of their operation, more so because I would like to understand the promises they make and until they provide something more than idle words with disclaimers at the bottom saying you can't depend on them and that they are forward looking statements not fact then I will continue to ask questions of anything I see as suspicious.
They haven't sold any shares for nearly 2 years, according to all financial documents and the 15c2-11s
Since 11-24-06 I have purchased 4.3m shares using Charles Schwab as a broker. If what you claim is true then ALL of my shares are fraudulent and I should be securing a lawyer right now?
Regardless, they have said that they will not require you to follow along with them to the new exchange. It is your choice
So, if you went to a store and purchased something and AFTER you give them your money, they THEN tell yo if you want your product you have to go somewhere else and get it, this would be ok? And when you question the process, why you were not told this BEFORE you purchased, and request your money back so you can go purchase similar products from someone else who can deliver on the spot, you are told if you want it you will go get it, we are not going to make you, once again, you would consider this fair business practice?
Then there is the ever popular "Just sell me your shares and leave!!" line everyone seams to regurgitate every time someone raises legitimate questions.
By the way: the company itself has made it pretty clear that they have an interest in purchasing 'real shares', at a more appropriate value. The demand begins there.
True, however they changed the rules AFTER the shares had been sold. And the path for some of us to follow their request could prove a costly one, and a definite uncertain one.
And there is still the question if the PDRs are worth 10K shares or $100 dollars, how will their price be adjusted?
Consider the following scenarios...
A PDR sells for $100, it is worth 10K shares of PNMS, however the current PPS is .0005 and you can trade 10K of verified shares for 1 PDR. So $100 in the US market can net you 2 PDRs by buying 20K shares, pulling certs and trading them in, why buy from the PDR exchange?
Likewise if the PPS is .005 and you pay $100 for a PDR, it is automatically worth %50 less than the purchase price if it represents the underlying share price, if not then what formula is used to determine the share price to PDR price ratio?
Unless the two are relatively close to one another at some point it seems that it opens up even more room for wrongdoing.
The only way I can see it working is either the US market gets frozen until the details are worked out, or there has to be some sort of relative equality in the near future, otherwise they are asking that people buy the same thing (Value in the company) in 2 different places for different prices.
whoah, hold on. I am not bashing or selling.
Go back and read the thing in context.
Some of you guys are just way too sensitive.
K, if MT is gonna wear a grass skirt, maybe on second thought I will not attend....
Question on PDR math
If each PDR represents 10K shares, costs an initial $100, and can be traded for underling shares at any time, will they be traded back for 10K shares or the value of $100 which would represent almost 77K shares at current price?
I.E. what incentive would there be to buy a $100 PDR when you should be able to just buy 77K shares for the same price and trade them in for 7.7 PDR's
I would think the PPS would HAVE to go up for there to be any interest in directly purchasing PDRs.
Am missing something? (Other than of course the "Guarantee", that we have received nothing more on but a mention)
ha, ha, lets actually hope it wasn't :0
aww damn, if I only make 500k does that mean I am not invited
>;(
Umm, hate to burst the bubble, however 4g responded to one of my posts today...
http://www.investorshub.com/boards/read_msg.asp?message_id=19886105
Thank you for the information, could you elaborate a little on dilution?
I see a share price as value of company / OS, how does one so drastically affect the price of a share without the company loosing massive amounts of money making the PPS still value / OS with just a significantly lower value? Where did the value of the shares we purchased go? Was it paid to the shorter? When the shorter came to collect was he not required showing some proof of ownership before they wrote a check?
It all seems like a lot of smoke and mirrors with no one telling the whole story. Now I know that is not your burden to explain, but could you (or someone else) provide some sort of example of how this could be mathematically possible. I mean is the money still there? They tell us it is and then some with more being added every day. Why then can they not just say this is what we are worth / OS and get the correct price per share, and if they choose not to why is it not stealing from the investor to say we are worth this much we are just choosing not to let you benefit from the gain of the company you invested in?
I just do not understand, my bank is by no means the sophisticated system that the stock exchange is supposed to be, yet if my account reflected $100 less than I deposited I can request some sort of reconciliation for the difference. And quite simply if there is no record of the transactions resulting in the deficiency then they are obligated to return my funds.
I would think law would provide the same for the people trading PNMS shares, the broker not the share holder would HAVE to provide record of all the transactions involving PNMS shares at request to the company, and if they did not there should be ways of forcing them legally to do so. With that I cannot believe with tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars on the line that it could not be done a little more expediently than 6 months to a year.
Some entity is the end all responsible party for the shares that the company distributed, they may have further sub divided the shares to other entities, but there is a trail to be followed, and forensic accountants that sniff out wrong doings on such trails should not have that hard of a time following it. One dollar split one hundred ways equals one penny always has always will and at the point it does not someone is telling a lie and it is not the math. This should not be so hard to find…
Thanks again for all of your input and patience with my banter, but honestly this looks to me to be a very simple problem just on a large scale and certainly a team of forensic accountants would be cheaper than loosing 500% of the reported value of a multimillion dollar corporation.
I am just curious if someone can provide an example to support the proposed market manipulation.
As I see it the company reports they are worth amount. It is my understanding that an increase in value of the company should be represented in an increased share value.
Now if someone or many some ones played short positions and the company had to pay them, I could see the pps going down due to the monies being paid out ad therefore the company’s value being reduced, however the company is still reporting regularly that its value is increasing.
By exactly what method can the companies value increase and share price decrease at the same time?
I have heard all the talk of naked shorting, but to me that means they are siphoning off funds that should ultimately cause the value to go down by removing money from the company. I see nothing but news of more money coming in and more profits.
I am more of a weekend warrior than a hardcore investor and I believe this would be a good learning experience for me and other investors here if someone could provide a working model of how something like this could happen.
Hmmm, I am starting to wonder if they put out a pr saying they LOST money, would it drive the price up?
J/K ;)
I have a few questions concerning the statement "2) As our previous press release stated, PANAMERSA Corporation has begun to buy shares back, and we are targeting shares held in cert form. Once we have the number of shares in certs equal to the O/S, I will declare the remaining shares (shorted) in the system as bogus"
1)Now I would assume that when it comes down to the wire this will never happen, would it not require all valid share holders convert to certs for it to happen? Some (Myself included) will not want to move to the new PDR system, certainly not short term, maybe never. I liken it to installing a Microsoft service pack on the first day of deploy un-tested.
2) Would it not be possible for the people trading phantom shares to produce false certs? Considering the above will never happen, who is to dispute the validity and how?
3) Considering the shares represent a percentage of the companies value, IF the PDR system succeeds will this not be paralleled in the PPS on the open market.
4) Pending the above statement being true, would it be legal for them not to share the success of the PDR system with the legal shareholders?
5) Last but not least, I would assume that my record of purchasing my shares from my account with Schwab would have some legal standing as is, that either PNMS would have to acknowledge them or Schwab would have to have to answer for that not me. Since when did it become the account holders burden to provide proof that the purchase was made, is that not what I pay Schwab for?
I would love to hear thoughts on some of these issues, I am excited to see this week make a positive turn and have little doubt that unless something catastrophic happens that I will close green shortly. However with so many unanswered questions I find myself uncertain of where to take my profit and run, or if I will be stuck holding useless interest in a prospering company.
Thats cool, though I would stand to profit almost 5k from a 2x pps purchase. I think greed would cause me to decline the offer. Though I know it is a deadly sin to fall in love with a stock, especially a pinkie. I want the money this COULD be not what it may be in the next few weeks.
Personally I agree with the point many want the buy back of everyones shares but their own, however correct me here if I am wrong, but is there not still a percentage of non owned shares. Has the entire float been consumed by Joe shareholder?
As well if the company offered a direct buy of 2X current pps then there would be a certain percentage of shareholders that would indeed be happy to sell, some of which would even stand to profit.
Picking fruit from the tree is not always taking the whole crop.
Yeah!!!! Welcome back Janice.
So is anything other than a slow bleed to death ever going to happen here? It is like the split was just so they could show how much the PPS declined in 4 decimal places or less, when they go out to 5 time for another split.
All in all the biggest bomb I believe I have ever had the lack of sense to throw money in to.
What was 3m shares has slowly made its way down to where it would cost me more to sell it that it is worth.
Pathetic to say the least.
That still has not been lifted or explained?
WTF?!
I am using chuck here never had a single problem.
I would take .002 as a start for tomorrow, hell that would start me green! I entered this game at .0042 11-06 (current .0019 break even) been a long ride down. Any day now seeing green would just make all the long held beliefs that this company has real merit justified.
I managed to pick up a large chunk at .0011 (After much waiting) averaged down to .0019. Would be so nice to see green here in $.0005 up which IMHO is so do able.
Could it actually be getting close to payday for a lot of us?
GLTA!
Ok, I think I am done buying now.
I picked up 900K today (Finally) and dropped my average to .0019 with 4.4m, now for better or worse I ride it to the sky or straight into hell.
Look forward to all making some money together.
529615 went through in to separate purchases leaving 370385 of my original 900K order but then it went up again, maybe it will fall one more time and finish my fill today...
maybe it is persistence, I have been trying since mid last week.
Finally got a partial fill at .0011, 500k still waiting...
Just out of curiosity, considering this is unverified and anonymous, what exactly other than confusion does it provide?
Hoping for that day I assure you, and trying to average down all the while. It must be crazy to still try and buy more when I am taking a loss and uncertain if it will get worse. But what the hell, I might as well at this point, if I can average down far enough it may prove a blessing in disguise, if not what is a few hundred more lost considering the thousands already?
A bet is a bet, be it on the casino table of the trading floor...
Apparently because no one is selling I have been trying to pick up more all week and it never fills. It has been sitting @ 500K buy .0011 limit since Monday and has hit .0011 many times.
I had read your posts concerning sterling bank a while back, however if I understand correctly it would require I change my SEP provider which is not something I am willing to do for a single stock. Is that our only option?
It all seems like A LOT to have to do in order to trade in a single specific symbol, how is it that other companies can effectively trade on the open market and this one cannot?
I have been here a long time and own a substantial amount of shares, now it appears my options are take it or leave it however they so choose to change it, which of course they did AFTER they had thousands of my dollars.
Option B is of course sell and take a large loss. I have and still do believe this company has potential, however unless they do not care what the average investor thinks of their company; the runaround, lack of communication, and or details is going to hurt it in the long run.