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Aren't a number of those WAMU professionals, etc that can't be granted releases now part of JPM? Isn't it possible they could turn against JPM at some point if they don't get the releases?
Biz -- Any thought on if FDIC doesn't get third party releases from shareholders, Susman could go to trial and accuse them of some type of fraud?
CICI -- I didn't see anywhere that says she actually needed an asset list. Seems to me like she went away from everything she said during confirmation hearings.
I thought this judge wanted extra time to make an opinion that would go down for the ages. This document is worse than the examiners report. I really liked her comments about the testimony being something like within the law. That reminded me of the classic line in the Traveling Wilburys song -- Tweeter and the Monkey Man --" Everything's legal in Jersey as long as you don't get caught".
So what happens next with regards to other issues. Does Hoffman's objection get heard. Do shareholder's meeting proceedings continue? Will we ever see an asset list? Competing POR's? Susman and his team had better be getting really busy right now.
I bet Rosen is turning in those changes as we speak to get it approved. Does anyone know if another confirmation hearing takes place before she can approve.
IMO, she did the exact opposite of what she said and basically used the examiners report in her ruling with a few tweaks one of her clerks put in.
I find it utterly amazing that all the DD on this board can be wrong that equity ends up with nothing.
Don -- I honestly believe the examiner would have been given more time had he asked for it. We'll never know for sure, but if THJMW is staying true to form, she would have much preferred an examiner's report that could be used for at least something. IMO either Hochberg was bought off, or found something that could be very increminating and decided not to pursue it by filing basically a meaningless report. This would allow things to continue though at the waste of a few more million dollars. THJMW should have IMO began the proceedings at confirmation hearings with something like " OK. We have received no numbers to this point, by either documentation in GSA or in examiners report. If I don't get asset list during this confirmation hearing, the GSA will be denied and will be denied quickly, so either produce the numbers, work out a settlement with ALL parties, equity included, but DO NOT WASTE MY TIME.
The fallout of this case has the potenetial to be huge. I have to believe THJMW is trying to prevent by giving them opportunity for settlement. But again, I still can't believe there are no concrete numbers. Where is the valuation hearing?
Can mine be a PS3, since technically it is a blu-ray?
What happens if one party (or multiple) agrees to extension of GSA and one or some do not?
IMO Rosen will be working overtime over the holidays to come as close as possible to making those 5 things happen and still leave the EC out. What a joke!
I don't recall the mention of deadline when they were pushing things back to Jan 6 for the next omnibus hearing. Was anyone here aware that she had a deadline? The more important question again, with all the crap that has gone on for over 2 years, how can any deadline actually be taken seriously in this case. The only one who actually stuck to a deadline was the examiner and he basically used the deadline as an excuse to do nothing and make millions in the process.
forest--thanks for the update. I wasn't sure, but at this point, IMO, nothing is surprising.
Large Green -- I thought JPM (Rosen) was negotiating to buy off TPS also. EOM.
Biz,
I agree with much of your analysis of today's proceedings, but I am not so sure about her upholding any standards. I actually hope you are right, but at the same time, if she were taking the high road, there is no way in hell that a confirmation hearing should have been allowed with NO asset list. IMO one of three things may have happened:
1. The asset list is the sealed document. I don't believe that to be the case, because that in no way could be attorney client privilege.
2. The numbers are all there, we just don't see them. I can't see this being the case either. How could Nelson have argued the opposite if they were there. She would have just said read the agreement all the numbers are there.
3. There is no asset list that has been produced. That is IMO the most likely choice.
So if there is no asset list, we are basically waiting for her to decide if Rosen is telling the truth. if she is deciding based on that, then this whole court system is a sham whether or not she confirms. If she simply denies based on no evidence, I can live with that. Anything else, my whole faith in the system is gone. The fact that we have even gotten this far is scary. Many moons ago, she should have said, I want to see a list of assets and liabilities and who has what, then I will decide who SHOULD have what based on the evidence. Without doing that, she has caused all these ripple effects. I don't even understand all these hearings. The only hearings that should take place is if the asset/liability list is accurate then the decision is automatic.
I need to get away from the board for a while. I just depressed myself with the lack of integrity that seems to be creeping up everywhere I turn.
May each of you on this board and your loved ones have a joyous Christmas and a blessed New Year.
rockie -- So far nothing matters, except for those that stated that the POR decision means everything. In most opionions here, if that is not approved, we will for sure receive settlement somewhere down the road.
If she approves it and makes no changes that include equity, then we have to hope that the EC isn't disbanded (I believe Nelson asked that it not be disbanded, but I can't remember for sure) and they can continue the fight through appeals or whatever comes next.
I believe she can approve settlement and make changes, possibly to include equity if she believes funds exist. Again not sure on that.
Looking back at what has happened so far, we have actually won many decisions ( getting EC, getting examiner, getting examiner thrown out after he stabbed us in the back). The only thing we haven't gotten is that POS POR actually led to a confirmation hearing and as we have learned much about the legal system, it almost had to get that far (most of us didn't know that way back when). But here we are now -- waiting for the hopefully THJMW to rule on what she said she would -- the evidence. Those of us still here believe no numbers were shown that could lead to approval.
While I personally have learned a lot in these two + years, nobody will ever get me to agree that buying Washington Mutual for 1.8 billion , then fighting the way JPM has along with our supposed friends, the debtors to shut equity out and then start a new company without us, is either legal or morally correct. The numbers that have been presented thus far show that many laws and rules are being broken left and right in order to keep equity out. If the judge buys along with it and rules against us, that will definitely lessen the faith of many in our legal system, but will in no way mean that what they did was OK.
The fact that you and others seem to gloat when something in this case goes against equity amazes me. We are all here to make money. Some do it on the day to day action, some do it in this case on their faith in justice, and some on both. Many have already made money and left. Some have made some money and remain here, hopeful of the big payoff, while others are hoping just to break even and correct the injustice they were given when they lost their 401k's, jobs and happiness because of JPM.
If you want to gloat, I guess you have that legal right on these boards, but IMO you really need to question your values if you need to gloat. There have been others who have simply given their opinion on specific things whether or not they thought it would benefit equity. IMO, that type of discussion is very useful, but any gloating is not.
Sounds like you need to be at next hearing to voice your objections!
If Hoffman has common shares, isn't he by default represented by the EC, and according to JMW, thus entitled to view the documents?
If he has any possible way to use them, he needs to know what they are. I like his logic, although JMW doesn't appear to.
Chiron -- Would the fact that it is unknown territory for denial force her to approve it because she possibly doesn't want to put the country in that unknown area.
If she approves, of course therer will be some type of appeal/SH class action suit, but that will just fall through the cracks as far as the media goes and be forgotten by all but us. Denial could said precedents she is not prepared for. That worries me a little. She has an out for the future litigation burden of proof, in which she can make some explanation that is so jumbled, most would buy in, other than, again, us.
IMO -- Hoffman HAS to be heard. Whetehr now or in appeals. Remember if POR is approved, EC or TPS could both still appeal. TPS has a huge amoount at stake. All they have to do, is work with Hoffman. If those documents are unsealed, who knows what could happen. Especially is Susman knows what is in them already, he could take the case and only get paid if we win. Remember they have already done much of the work.
As we wait for whatever happens next, can anyone offer an opinion of whether or not someone from Susman's team is going back through all the audios and transcripts of these hearings to find instances of JMW's words that would lead to increasing chances of appeal?
If Susman's strong point is litigation wouldn't now be a good time to say something?
OK, let me get this straight. After 2+ years, the JMW is going to approve or reject this GSA/POR with the following.
1. no reliable numbers of any kind have been allowed to be entered as evidence
2. her own opinion as to whether litigation could be won since no evidence appears to be allowed that could realistically estimate the chances of any claims for or against.
3. the examiner's report
Oh, there is no #3. The examiner's report wasn't allowed either. So the JMW basically is going to rule based on nothing but listneing to a bunch of lawyers talk for a few hours a week for 2 years and then the past week.
And we wonder why the price of the stock isn't going up.
daisyxu -- Couldn't another POR, by say Susman meet #1 and #2?
Can't Nelson submit and new POR and use the PJS numbers for it?
Question for the board -- IF Susman produces Solomon numbers, I'd have to believe they would put equity in money. My question is, how hard do debtors fight the only numbers that have been produced and if they saw Solomon's numbers, yet still agreed to theis POS POR with no numbers? can that be the final straw needed to get equity money? How can they fight it when they have produced no numbers?
NurseJeff -- IMO, IF money moves into equity, it won't be until the very end. While I think common sense, logic, history and everything else say something fishy at minimum about the JPM deal for WAMU, I have to admit there are no sure things. EVERYTHING says equity should be in the money, but Rosen is good, so I will believe we win, when I see the balance in my account! Those of us still here are relying on the DD, and common sense.
So after all this testimony about who knew what, what methods were used in coming up with plan, I think the major things that JMW is going to have to decide are:
Did Counsel (WEil, etc) create plan? IF, so IMO, doesn't that mean that debtor's were not trying to maximize value and possibly giving stuff to JPM, when there may have been a good chance that there was a whole lot left on the table that estate could have had.
Is settlement fair? This goes again to point one above and expands on theory tht work may have been sloppy and though it took 2 years, rushed.
What is future of WMI? Is this another Kmart?
My question is, how much evidence does JMW actually NEED to say that the POS POR is BS? Or can she say something like, with the confidentiality, etc, we can't be sure of anything. The examiner was supposed to figure that out, but didn't. So is this FAIR? Can she despite all the evidence to the contrary, decide this is FAIR -- not maybe the best, but fair?
I agree Rockie. Let's let Mr. Hoffman decide the price for equity!
Uz --
Walrath said the report was designed mainly to collect facts that could be used by negotiators to craft a settlement that would include all parties in the bankruptcy case.
It would have been nice if she would have said that when the examiner began his work
Can Hochberg be brought in to testify on what documentation he has/had and did/didn't use in his emanier's report? I'd be really interested to see if he purposely left out any information he may have had in order to get those ridiculous results he published.
Does that mean no reference can be made to examiner's report by either side as they present their cases as well? Otherwise, to me, that is lying having a judge say strike something from the records and telling the jury to to ignore the statement right after a killer got rubbed the wrong way and accidently said he didi it.
If JMW read the examiner's report, she is going to use it unless NO references to it are allowed, IMO.
JW -- At this point, if JMW couldn't grasp the TPS stuff, she is not going to give a rat's a@@ about the books and WAMU's condition that may or may have not been brought on by fraudulent activities. At this point, IMO, our hope lies with agetting an asset list of everything that was sold/transferred/kept and accurate accounting of liabilities. JMW's rulings related to taxes, refunds, etc, will then tip the scales one way or the other for A > L.
If this list is not produced, IMO we are done.
The issues relating to if any fraudulent activities can be proven and thus eligible for prosecution later and related settlement talks will be dealt with in the background for now. Again, IMO, I believe a settlement for for a few bucks a share would be worth it for all at this point to save the ugliness that may ensue.
Byrd -- Hopefully she has a clerk or something that knows what they are doing and can make a favorable ruling for her.
I am not under the impression that this will end today. It appears that though there have been some contentious moments between JMW and Stark, that she is forcing him to prove his point. If he can do so, it will make her ruling more credible, hopefully. Susman and team better at least be on the phone taking all this in if none of them are in the courtroom.
voodoo -- IF TPS gets the $4B from JPM, doesn't all their preferred shares get canceled meaning more for those that still have them if we get a favorable settlement down the road?
ISn't all the granting of orders accomplishing is that here will be hearings on the subjects at hand? It may slow down the confirmation process a little and throw Rosen off his game for a little while.
What are the chances that she will actually rule in our favor on these motions during the hearing? I again fail to see how it is possible to withhold any information, be it confidential or not, form being used to present your case. But it looks like that is what is being done.
What I find more intriguing is the possibility of TPS trying to discredit Kotsuros. I don't know that they can call him to testify, but if they can prove his statements which are being used to confirm, yet haven't been produced are inaccurate, IMO that opens up using some of what may be work-product or confidential information to show the lack of validity to the POS POR.
Anyway, end of my babbling. Looks like game is on in about an hour!
UZ -- From your post:
With more than one class voting “yes,” WaMu still can win confirmation using cramdown, where the bankruptcy judge must determine that dissenting creditors and equity holders are receiving more than they would through liquidation in Chapter 7. In certain circumstances, using cramdown means that subordinated classes can’t receive anything.
I have a question for the board. How can they determine anything about chapter 7 when there is still no list of what actually would be liquidated?
rockie --it's only a matter of time before they change the rules to screw us again on any given stock. If this bankruptcy case goes through without equity being comepnsated, it will be the road map on how to get investors money, then reorg and screw equity. I may pull all my money out of the market all together if we see nothing out of all of this.
Chaarles -- It would seem IMO that Susman can use whatever he wants to object. If it is confidential, wouldn't that mean it would have to remain so. I don't see how she can edit his objections to say no confidential objections can be made.
I hope they filed to get it under seal knowing it woould be denied giving Hoffman even more power to have other documents unsealed. Honestly don't know what to think of it though.