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Be informed that Spain has quite an impressive navy. I wasn't aware that Boston Whaler made fifty footers.
Things of these matters are done through the courts just as they've done twice before and won. Don't even go there opening up Pandora's box regarding South American native cultures once enslaved by Spanish masters. They file suit and no one would ever keep so much as a coin
Quote: since being left there centuries ago and thousands of miles away from the country's jurisdiction.
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Perhaps you need to read this again. Spain never relinquished its rights and ownership to their shipwrecks. Furthermore, as a signatory to the UNESCO Underwater Cultural Heritage Treaty, Spain does not negotiate or issue contracts to treasure hunting companies. Perhaps it might prove to use the new Tinkerbell find all to find gold mines out in Arizona or Colorado.
As to the supposed all star line up of scientific egg heads flocking to the likes of SFRX, it seems to parallel the all star line up of marine archaeologists they used but to no avail. So show time continues. The good weather (ocean conditions)are not too far off so then comes show up or shut up time. Like that saying goes. 'If you're going to shoot, shoot don't talk.
Spain: ``The Embassy of Spain presents its compliments to the Department of State and has the honor to address the matter of Spanish laws and policy regarding the remains of sunken vessels that were lost while in the service of the Kingdom of Spain and/or were transporting property of the Kingdom of Spain. In accordance with Spanish and international law, Spain has not abandoned or otherwise relinquished its ownership or other interests with respect to such vessels and/or its contents, except by specific action pertaining to particular vessels or property taken by Royal Decree or Act of Parliament in accordance with Spanish law. Many such vessels also are the resting place of military and/or civilian casualties.
``The Embassy of Spain accordingly wishes to give notice that salvage or other disturbance of sunken vessels or their contents in which Spain has such interests is not authorized and may not be conducted without express consent by an authorized representative of the Kingdom of Spain.'' Source: Embassy of Spain, Washington, DC, Note No. 128, December 19, 2002.
Don't let the date 2002 put you off. A U.S. Dept. State letter as recent as October 2018 still acknowledges this position.
We're talking about the relevance of Spain primarily. Spain does not negotiate or grant contracts to treasure hunters. End of story.
Quote: Odyssey created the train wreck, briefs and litigation because they lied through the whole process. Nations have never negotiated with Pirates and never will. Taking everything from Odyssey was the equivalent of walking the plank.
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Actually it wasn't Odyssey that created the train wreck but rather UNESCO. Know that Spain was the forerunner and one of the first signatories to the UNESCO Underwater Cultural Heritage Treaty. Putting it cut and dry, Spain does not negotiate or deal with treasure hunting companies. On the other hand, SFRX might just knock on their door like a vacuum cleaner salesman and try and pitch the Tinkerbell find all (if it even works)
I'm still on for that including the crow sandwich if need be. Good luck.
Quote: It's a way to get the pps lower sometimes, talk it down. Then buy. JMO
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I assume you're referring to me. I would't buy into this if the price was but that of a box of crackerjacks.
Spain: ``The Embassy of Spain presents its compliments to the Department of State and has the honor to address the matter of Spanish laws and policy regarding the remains of sunken vessels that were lost while in the service of the Kingdom of Spain and/or were transporting property of the Kingdom of Spain. In accordance with Spanish and international law, Spain has not abandoned or otherwise relinquished its ownership or other interests with respect to such vessels and/or its contents, except by specific action pertaining to particular vessels or property taken by Royal Decree or Act of Parliament in accordance with Spanish law. Many such vessels also are the resting place of military and/or civilian casualties.
``The Embassy of Spain accordingly wishes to give notice that salvage or other disturbance of sunken vessels or their contents in which Spain has such interests is not authorized and may not be conducted without express consent by an authorized representative of the Kingdom of Spain.'' Source: Embassy of Spain, Washington, DC, Note No. 128, December 19, 2002.
Spanish laws and policy regarding the remains of sunken vessels that were lost while in the service of the Kingdom of Spain and/or were transporting property of the Kingdom of Spain. In accordance with Spanish and international law, Spain has not abandoned or otherwise relinquished its ownership or other interests with respect to such vessels and/or its contents,
You just might want to read that again. You obviously don't like what you see but that's the way it is.
SUNKEN VESSELS THAT WERE LOST WHILE IN THE SERVCE OF THE KINGDOM OF SPAIN AND/OR WERE TRANSPORTING PROPERTY OF THE KINGDOM OF SPAIN. What is it that you don't want to understand?
Incidentally, I have personally read a letter from the U.S. Department of State written in October of 2018 that reiterates this position. As a matter of fact Public Notice 4614 accompanied it.
6/14/13 Federal Register, Volume 69 Issue 24 (Thursday, February 5, 2004)
[Federal Register Volume 69, Number 24 (Thursday, February 5, 2004)]
[Notices]
[Pages 5647-5648]
From the Federal Register Online via the Government Printing Office [www.gpo.gov] [FR Doc No: 04-2488]
----------------------------------------------------------------------- DEPARTMENT OF STATE
[Public Notice 4614]
Office of Ocean Affairs; Protection of Sunken Warships, Military Aircraft and Other Sunken Government Property
1. On January 19, 2001, the President stated United States policy on sunken government vessels, aircraft and spacecraft (``State craft'') of the United States and foreign nations. See Weekly Compilation of Presidential Documents, vol. 37, no. 3, pages 195-196. The President advised, inter alia, ``[t]hose who would engage in unauthorized activities directed at sunken State craft * * * that disturbance or recovery of such craft should not occur without the express permission of the sovereign * * *.'' (The full text is set out at the end of this notice.)
2. The Governments of France, Germany, Japan, Russian Federation, Spain and the United Kingdom have advised the State Department of their policies, as follows:
France: ``In accordance with the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (among others art. 32 & 236) and Customary Law, every State craft (e.g. warship, naval auxiliary and other vessel, aircraft or spacecraft owned or operated by a State) enjoys sovereign immunities, regardless of its location and the period elapsed since it was reduced to wreckage (general principle of non limitation of rights of States).
The primacy of the title of ownership is intangible and inalienable: no intrusive action may be taken regarding a French sunken State craft, without the express consent of the French Republic, unless it has been captured by another State prior to sinking.
But this primacy does not forbid the State to freely renounce, whenever it wants to and in a formal way, to use some of its right on the wreck (except its ownership).
These principles have been applied in the Agreement between the Government of the USA and the Government of the French Republic regarding the wreck of ``La Belle'', signed at Washington, DC, March 31st, 2003, and the Agreement between the Government of the USA and the Government of the French Republic concerning the wreck of the CSS Alabama, signed at Paris, October 4th, 1989. Source: Communication from the French Foreign Ministry, November 28, 2003.
Germany: ``Under international law, warships and other vessels or aircraft owned or operated by a State and used only on government non- commercial service (``State vessels and aircraft'') continue to enjoy sovereign immunity after sinking, wherever they are located. The Federal Republic of Germany also retains ownership of any German State vessel or aircraft owned by it or the German Reich at the time of its
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sinking. Further, many sunken warships and aircraft are maritime graves, which have to be respected. No intrusive action may be taken in relation to German State vessels or aircraft without the express consent of the German Government.'' Source: Communication from the German Foreign Ministry, October 30, 2003.
Japan: ``According to international law, sunken State vessels, such as warships and vessels on government service, regardless of location or of the time elapsed remain the property of the State owning them at the time of their sinking unless it explicitly and formally relinquishes its ownership. Such sunken vessels should be respected as maritime graves. They should not be salvaged without the express consent of the Japanese Government.'' Source: Communication from the Government of Japan, September 13, 2003.
Russian Federation: ``Under international law of the sea all the sunken warships and government aircraft remain the property of their flag State. The Government of the Russian Federation retains ownership of any Russian sunken warship, including the warships of the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union, regardless the time they sank. These craft are considered places of special governmental protection and cannot be salvaged without special permission of the Government of the Russian Federation.'' Source: Communication from the Government of the Russian Federation, October 3, 2003.
Spain: ``The Embassy of Spain presents its compliments to the Department of State and has the honor to address the matter of Spanish laws and policy regarding the remains of sunken vessels that were lost while in the service of the Kingdom of Spain and/or were transporting property of the Kingdom of Spain. In accordance with Spanish and international law, Spain has not abandoned or otherwise relinquished its ownership or other interests with respect to such vessels and/or its contents, except by specific action pertaining to particular vessels or property taken by Royal Decree or Act of Parliament in accordance with Spanish law. Many such vessels also are the resting place of military and/or civilian casualties.
``The Embassy of Spain accordingly wishes to give notice that salvage or other disturbance of sunken vessels or their contents in which Spain has such interests is not authorized and may not be conducted without express consent by an authorized representative of the Kingdom of Spain.'' Source: Embassy of Spain, Washington, DC, Note No. 128, December 19, 2002.
United Kingdom: ``Under international law, warships, naval auxiliaries, and other vessels or aircraft owned or operated by a State and used only on government non-commercial service (``State vessels and aircraft'') enjoy sovereign immunity. State vessels and aircraft continue to enjoy sovereign immunity after sinking, unless they were captured by another State prior to sinking or the flag State has expressly
[[Page 5648]]
relinquished its rights. The flag State's rights are not lost merely by the passage of time. Further, many sunken State vessels and aircraft are maritime graves, which should be respected. No intrusive action may be taken in relation to the United Kingdom's sovereign immune State vessels or aircraft without the express consent of the United Kingdom.'' Source: Communication from the UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office, July 4, 2003.
3. Anyone believing to have located or wishing to salvage a sunken
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State craft are advised to contact the government office noted below: France: Minist[egrave]re des Affaires [eacute]trang[egrave]res,
Direction des Affaires juridiques, Sous-direction du droit de la mer, des p[ecirc]ches et de l'Antarctique, 75351 Paris Cedex 7, France, Tel (011) 33 1 43 17 53 25; fax (011) 33 1 43 17 55 05.
Germany: Ausw[auml]rtiges Amt, Referat 504, 11013 Berlin, Germany, Tel (011) 49 1888 17 3832; fax (011) 49 1888 17 53832; e-mail: -- @diplo.de.
Japan: Embassy of Japan, 2520 Massachusetts Avenue, NW., Washington, DC 20008, Tel (202) 238-6700; fax (202) 328-2187.
Russian Federation: Legal Department, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Russian Federation, Moscow, Fax (011) 7-095-241-11-66; e-mail: DP@mid.ru.
Spain: Minister for Cultural Affairs, Embassy of Spain, 2375 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW., Washington, DC 20037, Tel (202) 728-2334; fax (202) 496-0328; e-mail: ocultura@erols.com.
United Kingdom: NP Sec (P + P) 2, Room 125 Victory Building, HMNB Portsmouth, England UK, PO1 3LS, Tel: (011) 44 23 92 720548 or 727326; fax: (011) 44 23 92 727304, e-mail: npsec-moduk@dial.pipex.com.
United States: Naval Historical Center (NHC), Office of the Underwater Archaeologist, 805 Kidder Breeze Street NE., Washington Navy Yard,DC20374-5060,Tel(202)433-2210;fax(202)433-2729, http:// www.history.navy.mil.
Any other nation not listed above: Office of Ocean Affairs (OES/ OA), U.S. Department of State, 2201 C. Street, NW., Washington, DC 20520, Tel (202) 647-3880; fax (202) 647-9099.
4. The Presidential Statement on United States Policy for the Protection of Sunken State Craft reads in full as follows:
Thousands of United States government vessels, aircraft and spacecraft (``State craft''), as well as similar State craft of foreign nations, lie within, and in waters beyond, the territorial sea and contiguous zone. Because of recent advances in science and technology, many of these sunken government vessels, aircraft and spacecraft have become accessible to salvors, treasure hunters and others. The unauthorized disturbance or recovery of these sunken State craft and any remains of their crews and passengers, is a growing concern both within the United States and internationally. In addition to deserving treatment as gravesites, these sunken State craft may contain objects of a sensitive national security, archaeological or historical nature. They often also contain unexploded ordnance that could pose a danger to human health and the marine environment if disturbed, or other substances, including fuel oil and other hazardous liquids, that likewise pose a serious threat to human health and the marine environment if released.
I believe that United States policy should be clearly stated to meet this growing concern. Pursuant to the property clause of Article IV of the Constitution, the United States retains title indefinitely to its sunken State craft unless title has been abandoned or transferred in the manner Congress authorized or directed. The United States recognizes the rule of international law that title to foreign sunken State craft may be transferred or abandoned only in accordance with the law of the foreign flag State.
Further, the United States recognizes that title to a United States or foreign sunken State craft, wherever located, is not extinguished by passage of time, regardless of when such sunken State craft was lost at sea.
International law encourages nations to preserve objects of
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maritime heritage wherever located for the benefit of the public. Those who would engage in unauthorized activities directed at
sunken State craft are advised that such disturbance or recovery should not occur without the express permission of the sovereign, and should only be conducted in accordance with professional scientific standards and with the utmost respect for any human remains.
The United States will use its authority to protect and preserve sunken State craft of the United States and other nations, whether located in the waters of the United States, a foreign nation, or in international waters.
Public Papers of the Presidents: William J. Clinton, vol. III, page 2956, Jan. 19, 2001, available through http://www.gpo.gov/nara/pubpaps/ srchpaps.html; Weekly Compilation of Presidential Documents, vol. 37, no. 3, pages 195-196, available through http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/ nara003.html.
5. The failure to mention other sunken Government property of any nation should not be construed as abandonment or waiver of that nation's right.
Dated: January 12, 2004.
Margaret F. Hayes,
Director, OES/OA, Department of State. [FR Doc. 04-2488 Filed 2-4-04; 8:45 am] BILLING CODE 4710-09-P
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Quote:
There is a compromise even if the “facts” remain.
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WRONG. Apparently you're not abreast to what's going on between Colombia and Spain regarding the discovered Spanish galleon San Jose. Sorry to be the one p---ing on your parade.
DEPARTMENT OF STATE
[Public Notice 4614]
Office of Ocean Affairs; Protection of Sunken Warships, Military Aircraft and Other Sunken Government Property
Spain: ``The Embassy of Spain presents its compliments to the Department of State and has the honor to address the matter of Spanish laws and policy regarding the remains of sunken vessels that were lost while in the service of the Kingdom of Spain and/or were transporting property of the Kingdom of Spain. In accordance with Spanish and international law, Spain has not abandoned or otherwise relinquished its ownership or other interests with respect to such vessels and/or its contents, except by specific action pertaining to particular vessels or property taken by Royal Decree or Act of Parliament in accordance with Spanish law. Many such vessels also are the resting place of military and/or civilian casualties.
``The Embassy of Spain accordingly wishes to give notice that salvage or other disturbance of sunken vessels or their contents in which Spain has such interests is not authorized and may not be conducted without express consent by an authorized representative of the Kingdom of Spain.'' Source: Embassy of Spain, Washington, DC, Note No. 128, December 19, 2002.
As the saying goes, taken from the movie The Good, The Bad & the Ugly:
When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
Quote: I'm also looking forward to spring!! JMO
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Don't blame you.
I have seen this, heard this type of stuff all before. This is what penny stock promotion is all about. Nothing new. I look past all the bla, bla, bla and focus on factual field performance. Good weather right around the corner.
Explain why they're working with a zero performance pen stock company like SFRX?
Very poor analogy. Cesium magnetics is not the phone connected to the wall. Low frequency sub-bottom profiling is not the phone connected to the wall. The Tinker-bell has found no shipwreck. All talk. Good weather coming. Then what?
Quote: You do know they found an ancient death mask recently right? The pps has tripled last few days. I'll go with the new technology their working on. Jmo
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I'm very much aware of the partial artifact found on the BEACH. Remarkable coincidence. I'll go with technology that finds wrecks. This Tinkerbell find all to date is all talk with no proven performance.
I believe you realize and accept the fact that I've been on quite a number of professional magnetometer, side-scan and sub-bottom profile surveys. I know what shipwreck hunting is about. Most definitely the technology currently exists to find the shipwreck being searched for. Its just incredible they now need PhD egg heads inventing Tinkerbell find all instruments to find it. Years gone by, can't find the wreck, the stocks bombed out and all of a sudden their a high tech inventing company. Its very amusing and quite entertaining. As is the norm for penny stock promotion, crank out loads of credentials all kinds of impressive we are gonna do, we are gonna be statements but with not one piece of performance evidence. Pass me that bag of popcorn please. Good weather just around the corner.
Agreed. All the fluff and puff is meaningless (certainly helps the stock go up) Performance and results are all. Wish you well.
Quote: They are on the wreck
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That is a serious misleading statement. There is no evidence whatsoever to support it. If, let's say, they were on the wreck then they're apparently incompetent and lacking the ability to produce that evidence. Which is it?
Wink, wink. No mike drop. To this very day all of the is no more than fluff and puff. Where's the performance, where are the results. Good weather coming soon. The grand moment of put up or shut up.
I find it quite interesting how the dazzle eventually wore off as to the all star line up of hired gun marine archaeologists SFRX had hired and flaunted. Even so, years went by and no shipwreck even though the CEO publicly stated they were on the wreck. Obviously untrue. Then the stock goes down, the seasons over and there are no more rabbits to pull out of the hat. Then out of no were, da, da there suddenly appears Dr. Wonder who's overflowing with credentials but non associated with marine sciences and technology. Then like a magic puff, this Indiana Jones just happens to find a portion of a pre-Colombian artifact on the beach. Now there are allegedly world class scientists teaming up with a little heard of non achieving penny stock company, all of whom are going to be industry leaders in the treasure hunting industry. Incidentally, even if all were factual where's this marvelous tinker bell find all technology going to be used. The treasure hunting game is over (particularly with Spanish treasure wrecks) due to the UNESCO Underwater Cultural Heritage Treaty and the key countries that ratified it. I personally find this whole sequel of events rather remarkable. Yes the good weather is coming.
A lot of hype with proof of nothing. As the old saying goes (and the farmer hauled another load away).
I'm ready. I'll even order my crow sandwich as mentioned before.
Boiling all that down it comes out to a lot of bla, bla, bla, bla, bla. We wanna be, we're gonna be. Bottom line is no treasure found in over ten years but Dr. Wonderful and the new Tinkerbell find all will resolve all. As I said, good weather coming soon. The put up or shut up time. Up to now its all nothing but fluff and puff.
Quote: Looking more and more like I'll be right
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Calm seas and the true story will be told. Not too long to wait.
Quote: I personally know the owner and he is the real deal. Real permits..real ships...real treasure. And more.
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Yes, why don't you be more explicit about the 'real deal'. Over ten years, can't produce a real lick of treasure and now Indiana Jones shows up with the Tinkerbell machine out of no where. No evidence what so ever but a lot of eloquently produced hype. A portion of a pre-Colombian mask found on the beach with no explainable association to the Tinkerbell find all. As this stock rises as directly related to this unproven hype, I can't help but wonder what's going to happen when the weather gets good and its put up or shut up time. When a alleged Mr. Genius joins himself with a zero success penny stock company, I for one can't help but be suspicious and skeptical. Can't wait for the calm seas.
Thats always possible. From about the middle of the 16th Century both the South American and the Mexican flotas were using the Straights of Florida when departing Havana, taking advantage of the northerly flow of the Gulf Stream.
Quote: From my research, it is believed that these ships had as much contraband (gold and silver) as the vessels had on their manifest.
Do you debunk that understanding?
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No. Not at all but that was always a variable factor through the centuries. The average was usually 25 to 50 percent of that of the registry.
I'm certainly not contesting that but you are not recognizing the distinct difference between a Tierra Firma Flota and that of a Nuevo Espana (New Spain) Flota. Treasures coming up the West side of South America to Panama were then transported across the isthmus to the Caribbean side to either Nombre de Dios (early period) or Porto Bello. (Normally on to Cartagena) From there on to Havana Cuba. These were the Tierra Firma Galleons. The Nueva Espana Flota left Vera Cruz, Mexico and sailed on to Havana. The question of interest here is if the 1715 Concepcion sailed out of Vera Cruz, then what was a Peruvian relic doing on board that vessel? Rather odd, with the exception that it may have been picked up in Havana as I described before. If the Concepcion did sail out of Tierra Firma then its not too difficult to understand why this Peruvian relic might be on board.
It's possibly off the wreck but came in with the other misc. stuff previously found by Heartland. The exception is that this recent artifact was found on the beach.
I do not know for a fact that the Concepcion came out of Mexico, and if so, rather peculiar that a Peruvian (Inca) relic would be on that ship. As a pre-Colombian object, it was apparently a collectable for someone. Although I said it jokingly, it could have been picked up in Havana, having been previously deposited there from a previous fleet that came up from Cartagena or Porto Bello.
It's a piece of. Not an intact artifact. I've spoken to a very experienced marine archaeologist who's been following this. He is cautiously reserving judgment. I personally find it interesting that a vessel coming out of Vera Cruz, Mexico (Concepcion) is supposedly carrying a Peruvian burial mask. The Incas were South America whereas the Aztecs were Mexico. Maybe it was dropped off in Havana previously and someone aboard the 1715 Concepcion picked it up at Jose's pawn shop. Possibly I'm wrong and the Concepcion came out of South America and not Mexico. correct me if I'm wrong professor.
One cannon and a bunch of iron spikes doesn't exactly spell shipwreck site. To the layman that just might not be easy to understand.
Quote: Yes, it most certainly did insinuate a scam. Exactly as you meant it to.
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Wrong. I insinuated no such thing. Rather than an insinuation, I was pointing out that these ridiculous unsubstantiated four billion dollar value figures are very misleading. Being produced by persons who obviously don't know what they're talking about.
Quote: Because they will do anything to discredit anything with SFRX. Sour grapes.
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Sour grapes. Over what?
Excluding the we're gonna be, we wanna be, please list the by industry standards recognizable achievements of this company in now over a decade.
The research testimonies are apparently from the same AGI sources as also found by renowned archivist, treasure hunter Jack Haskins. This further confirms a flotsam produced debris trail as I've always suspected. Simple logic. Thirty four iron cannons but to date only one in or near the SFRX contract sites. An iron cannon is an absolute glaring anomaly as seen by a cesium marine magnetometer. No cannons, well golly gee, seems like that's indicating the wrecks not there but some where else. Well, no sweat, the Tinkerbell find all is just going to follow that debris trail and pin-point the huge motherlode pile of three gold bars and a box of doubloons. Value = four billion. Why? Well the newsman and Indiana Jones said so.
I certainly wouldn't mind being corrected by being directed to a contradicting treasure manifest indicating that more was on board.
My post never insinuated its a scam. Simply pie-in-the-sky exaggerated values. On what basis does this SFRX Indiana Jones comeuppance with an absurd figure of four billion dollars. A man who apparently knows little to nothing about Spanish Colonial shipwrecks and treasure, never found Spanish treasure, never marketed Spanish treasure and for that matter this applies to SFRX as well. (Oh, I forgot, the news spokesman said it so it must be true). On going humor.
Very interesting article was in Maritimes by a Rob Westrick, marine archaeologist and author. Incidentally, 3,000 pesos in gold doubloons is not 3,000 coins but rather value. If this does indeed represent the manifest of the 1715 Concepcion, one would be lucky to realize even fifty million. Thats my opinion. By the way, the formal registry of the 1622 N.S. Atocha was + or - 900,000 pesos in both gold and silver. (plus contraband)
Could Heartland Treasure Quest Have Found the Missing 1715 Fleet Concepción? An Alternative Theory
Rob Westrick
The patache Nuestra Señora de la Concepción, San José y San Francisco is one of the missing 1715 shipwrecks awaiting discovery. The Concepción struck the south side of Cape Canaveral and sank. Seven survivors floated on a hatch cover for three days as the currents swept them around the shoals and sand bars of the cape, where they landed on beach and walked to St. Augustine. Treasure hunters have been looking for the Concepcíon for years without success.
Patache, Nuestra Señora de la Concepción, San José y San Francisco: 265-tons, armed with thirty-two iron cannons, Master Pablo Soliac, owner Don Antonio Echeverz went to Havana where she loaded 3,000 pesos in gold doubloons, four gold bars valued at 5,703 pesos, 15 serons of cocoa, one chest of vanilla, 15 3/4 tons of brazilwood, 1,440 cured half-hides and a large quantity of tobacco.
Rex Stocker and his company Heartland Treasure Quest discovered an as yet unidentified debris trail or shipwreck site off Cape Canaveral. Stocker a resident of Sebastian, Florida was a former member of the Real Eight Company in the 1960’s. Heartland Treasure Quest (HTQ) had secured an exploration permit from the State of Florida Division of Historical Resources to search for shipwrecks off the cape. They then obtained a permit from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to salvage treasure within about a mile of shore from Cocoa Beach to Melbourne Beach. HTQ formed a partnership and agreed to subcontract the area to Amelia Research Company of Amelia Island; and Florida Research & Recovery, a group of investors primarily from Georgia.
In late August 2004, while exploring the area, the group recovered several artifacts that increased their hopes. Tom Funk, an archaeologist who teaches history at Satellite High School in nearby Satellite Beach, Florida stated to the press: ?Our artifact collection is pretty interesting. We have enough artifacts, I think, to show what period they belong to.? The most diagnostic artifact was a partially intact, silver-handled flintlock pistol dated 1709. It was also marked with the name of a manufacturer from Mexico. The pistol was loaded with two musket balls wired together. Other artifacts included what appears to be a boarding sword, which has a curved blade, a silver dagger or knife handle and two ornate silver Communion or Church platters beautifully inscribed with names of nobles or merchants. The collection also included some cannonballs, pewter plates and many other period artifacts including pottery, bronze and iron spikes, and wood ship pieces all indicate a shipwreck buried over time. According to the company’s Research Design Plan, the shipwreck is located in a deep layer of heavy anaerobic (without oxygen or bacteria) clay, covered with sand with seabed conditions including low visibility, shark infested waters, difficult to salvage, and in cold deep waters.? These conditions should allow very favorable conditions for a high level of preservation potential.
Flintlock pistol dated 1709. (Photo: courtesy Florida Research and Recovery Group)
The area where the artifacts were recovered lies about twenty-seven miles south from the tip of Cape Canaveral, opposite Spessard Holland Beach, off Melbourne Beach, Florida. HTQ is confident that the artifacts could be from the patache, Nuestra Señora de la Concepción, San José y San Francisco, one of the missing 1715 fleet shipwrecks. The Concepción struck the south side of Cape Canaveral and sank. Seven survivors floated on a hatch cover for three days as the currents swept them around the shoals and sand bars of the cape, where they landed on beach and walked to St. Augustine. One particularly interesting statement given by a survivor is on deposit in the Archivo General de Indias at Seville, Spain. He testified to a court notary that he floated on a hatch cover for three days within sight of land:
?... Captain Sebastian Mendez, pilot of the ship...he departed from Havana on the 24th day of July in company of the Galleons and the Flota, and he was lost on Wednesday the 31st, at two o'clock in the morning, because of a hurricane that came on from the east-northeast so strongly that although he has sailed the seas for many years and suffered through many tempests he has never seen another like it for violence, and his ship and all the rest were lost, some before and some after Palmar de Ays (Cape Canaveral), at 28 degrees 10 minutes (North Latitude)...in an area nine leagues (27 miles) from north to south...?
Other historical information gathered by Heartland Treasure Quest reveals there were visual sightings reported during the hurricane to the west towards the lower mouth of the Banana River which is at 28° 08 minutes. The Southern Area of the E-155D exploration permit area is situated just south of the lower mouth of the Banana River. Artifacts have been found both to the north and south of this location by beachcombers for many years.
Concepción Update:
On November 10, 2012 I had an interesting and informative phone conversation with salvor
Glenn ?Ace? Ridgely. Ace was diving with Seafarer Exploration Corporation (SFRX), a salvage company led by CEO Kyle Kennedy. According to Ace, Seafarers had been trying to get a salvage permit to work the Juno Beach wreck but kept getting denied by the State of Florida’s Bureau or Archaeological Research. State officials cited the company didn’t display enough ?financial? capabilities to do a responsible job. Ryan Wheeler, the Florida Division of Historical Resources’ archaeological research bureau chief, promised Kennedy they would be granted a permit if he could raise $500,000. Seafarers promptly raised the half million. What happened next is somewhat clouded with confusion. Ace informed me that the State of Florida hadn’t issued a new salvage permit in over twenty years and the emails proved that government officials were using their
positions to essentially prevent citizens from doing what they were legally entitled to do ?salvage shipwrecks? under state law. Heads rolled and one individual was fired, another was demoted and several others in the department were either terminated or transferred to other departments.
Prior to his involvement with Seafarers, Ace had been diving with Florida Research & Recovery. The company was working in conjunction with Heartland Treasure Quest searching for the Concepcíon of the 1715 fleet. They found a cannon outside of Heartland’s exploration contract area. Ace told them they should file for a lease extension to just include the newly discovered cannon, but at the time it was just an old rusty cannon and instead of submitting the necessary paperwork it was easier just to pick up the cannon and drag it a few hundred yards to a new location within their area. Ace felt they were more interested in attracting new investor money. Later they returned to the original cannon location and found something very interesting. An old flintlock pistol and some silver platters. Subsequent cleaning revealed the pistol was dated 1709. The silver platters were stamped with the owners mark. Further research obtained through Dr. Eugene Lyon revealed the owner was a passenger and aboard the Concepción.
Flash forward to the present-day. Kyle Kennedy bought part of the Heartland Treasure Quest group and now owns the Heartland lease area. The Concepción represents one of the biggest undiscovered? shipwrecks in Florida waters. According to Ace, Robert Bendis, who had replaced Wheeler wished the entire mess had not happened and the State of Florida is now working with Kennedy. Ace stated Seafarers should be getting a permit within the next few months to salvage the Concepción.
I asked Ace for some clarification regarding on the pistol and platter. Ace wrote me back stating:
Heartland Treasure Quest found the pistol. I think Steve Reedy’s son Zack found the pistol and platter, I don’t know who else was diving at the time. The pistol was made by a gunsmith sent over to the new world by King Philip V to make presentation pieces of gold and silver he made pistols and swords I don't know his name though, once Rreedy goes public with the platter story you can contact him for all the inside story but not until then. The pistol is unique because of its flint lock down device he is the only person to make that type of lock down, there has only been one other pistol found like it and it was found on the Corrigan's wreck site and I don’t know who found it or when it was found. I’m sure it will be found in Taffy’s (Fisher’s) records of that wreck site, booth pistols are made of silver and are very unique pieces. (500)
Could Heartland Treasure Quest have found the missing Concepción? Is Ace right in his assessment that Seafarer Exploration Corporation could be awarded a permit to salvage the wreck? Or is all this talk merely another pipedream, wishful thinking and people believing what that want to believe and hearing what they want to hear in the quest for sunken treasure? Only time will tell!
References Cited:
?Hunters Scour Sea for Sunken Ships? by Jim Waymer in Florida Today, April 28, 2004 HTQ, Inc. Supplemental ?Attachment C? E-155D, June 3, 2010? by Thomas Funk. Personal Correspondence with Glenn ?Ace? Ridgely
Personal Correspondence with Jim Stringer, Florida Research Recovery Group.
For someone who has no technical background in the marine sciences, he's got to be reading allot of tec. manuals. It's an autonomous subsea vehicle that goes down and takes a profile of the subsea floor.
Marvelous. Is SFRX going to post any photos of this vehicle?
Raider21 Monday, 02/04/19 07:43:46 AM
Re: Z Money post# 54835 0
Post # of 54904
Quote: The company suddenly has 80% of 4 billion in treasure
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So it appears you've also stepped in line to believe these ultra absurd pie-in-the -sky media values which are seriously misleading. Even the two richest wrecks ever salvaged in modern times;
1622 N.S. Atocha and the 1857 S.S. Central America never produced total sales revenues of over two to four hundred million, the latter being a very general allowance. So now persons like Dr. Who in the Indiana Jones interview, and yourself included, are throwing out numbers like four billion, Yes four BILLION not even four MILLION . Why don't you post provable marketing statistics that validate any sunken shipwreck treasure sales that even firmly validate two hundred million. I'm waiting.
I have no doubts that there are some intelligent and savvy business persons posting here but when it comes to sunken treasure it like they graduated from clown town university. It's rather unbelievable.
Quote: Have you seen ANY information suggesting "Tinkerbell" is finished, or legally protected as proprietary??
I believe I've read most information publicized from the company...I've seen only "we're developing...." Tinkerbell
Please advise, and provide link
Many thanks
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Love the way you leap-frog over other pertinent posts which request your input (factual evidence).
Without quoting the actual press releases made. It stated that Indiana already used his Tinker Bell technology and defined the actual shipwreck debris trail. That said it all comes down to the old
sh--t or get off the pot. So where's the treasure? As I said I didn't pay for the ticket but just love the entertainment.
Quote: No matter what "world" Dr. Torres steps into, experience or no experience, Dr. Torres has earned the highest level decency and respect from all Americans.
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Didn't you read my last post? If all said is valid, I do indeed respect his military record which has nothing to do with the issue at hand here. He, based upon facts known, knows nothing about this treasure hunting industry respective to its history, explorative and salvage AND marketing processes. He may be a prompted up hero for SFRX but don't go so far as to push his alleged laurels as a hero of the American people. Exactly what are you trying to sell here? Why ask. It's rather obvious. When a guy like this does an interview trying to look like an In Indiana Jones with selected hat and coat and spews out statement of grossly exaggerated treasure values, bla, bla, bla bla, bla. It's all said.
Quote: ...Dr. Torres is a decorated and wounded war veteran receiving a Purple Heart with Oak Cluster and the Bronze Star with Valor among other citations and awards.
It might be wise not to refer to him as Indian Torres.
Just a thought...
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If all of that is factual (?) he certainly deserves recognition, honor and credit for same but when he steps in to a world in which he has no previous experience and makes the statements and clams he has made, I can't help but be suspicious. meaning he knows nothing about the world of searching for or salvaging sunken shipwreck treasure. So. accordingly to the marine weather forecasts Sunday and Monday should be doable days at sea. Now it remains to be seen if his all so newly invented 'Tinker Bell" find all rod will pin-point the shipwreck and treasure motherlode you apparently believe to be there? My question remains as to why this proclaimed genius and inventor (thus far totally unproven) would suddenly align himself the likes of SFRX? I can't help myself, I just love going to the circus.