Linda is biotch...! LOLz JayKay
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24.1 Cancellation of Dime Warrants: Holders of Dime Warrants shall receive no distribution under the Plan. On the Effective Date, all Dime Warrants shall be deemed extinguished and the certificates and all other documents representing such Equity Interests shall be deemed cancelled and of no force and effect.
***POR***
http://www.ghostofwamu.com/documents/08-12229/08-12229-2622.pdf
Part 1. Attachments to be available on KCCLLC shortly.
Courtesy of Ghost.
Thanks.
You seriously need to consult an attorney. Seriously. You are only hurting yourself here.
A Trustee does not know much. They are held in an administrative and fiduciary capacity. They are not held to interpreting legal documents. That is what an attorney is for and that is why the Trustee HIRED an attorney to do the LEGAL work. Would you hire a General Motors mechanic to diagnose your Mercedes Benz? THIS IS COMMON SENSE HERE.
When you get two individuals who do not know what they are talking about, things get more confused.
There will always be people to continue to ask them same questions until they find someone that will tell them what they want to hear.
Consult an attorney and they will tell you how it is.
I just spoke with the Trustee and he said that the Classes are in Order of payout.
He also said that if there were no Senior Unsecured Claims - Class 3 - the Subordinated Unsecured Claims - Class 5 - would be equal to Class 4 - the General Unsecured Claims
.
Class 5 is only subordinate to Class 3 which corresponds with exactly what is stated in the Reorganization Plan.
As I have told you before: Class 5 are the peasants of the creditor world. They are equivalent to the commons in the equity world.
SUBORDINATE CLASS GETS PAID L A S T ! ! ! ! ! ! Commons and preferreds are next, but I do not care about equity (long shot).
What don't you understand about this????????????????
Like I said, CONSULT AN ATTORNEY!!!!
Until an agreement is made, this is the way it stands.
Have a nice day and good luck.
imo
if Class 5 gets paid in full before Classes 6 - 8 then why are Classes 6 - 8 eligible to vote and Class 5 is not eligible?
As I have always said:
General and Senior will be paid before subordinate.
Class 1 through 8 will be paid before class 9.
Please consult an attorney. This is the only way you will be satisfied.
No matter what I say (see below):
There will always be people who continue to ask the same questions until they come across someone who will tell them what they want to hear.
There will always be people who continue to ask the same questions until they come across someone who will tell them what they want to hear.
So do you "want to hear what you want hear" or "tell you like it is"?
If you did not understand the below quote, then you obviously do not understand bankruptcy.
As I have said, you need to consult an attorney.
IMO
"An impaired class who is getting nothing under the plan is deemed to reject the plan. Hence, only impaired classes who are getting something get to vote on the plan."
Classes 5 & 9 are listed in the Reorganization Plan as impaired and deemed to reject the plan - so why then are we in Class 5 and not Class 8 if we are not suppose to be getting anything?
That is because you must comprehend Bankruptcy. Do not rely on "plain English" to understand it. There is more to it as I have been telling you.
Once you understand Bankruptcy, you will understand my posts as being logical instead of distortions.
Back to work for me.
IMO
"An impaired class who is getting nothing under the plan is deemed to reject the plan. Hence, only impaired classes who are getting something get to vote on the plan."
Classes 5 & 9 are listed in the Reorganization Plan as impaired and deemed to reject the plan - so why then are we in Class 5 and not Class 8 if we are not suppose to be getting anything?
That is what Rosen said, but keep in mind, that the EC and Salomon did not have any input on said POR.
Also, we also do not know if Rosen said all that BS in order to get his buddies to buy on the cheap with the spike downward on Friday, March 12, 2010, and actually put out a decent POR as a head fake that Rosen is pulling. Or the POR changed because I am sure the EC and Weil had communicated with each other after the last hearing date.
It comes down to:
1. I am smart. I will sell and buy back lower.
2. I am smart. I will sell and buy back lower, BUT end up chasing, so I really am stupid.
3. I am smart, I will hold, BUT really, I am stupid because Rosen said that equity is not in the money and stated it will be reflected in the POR.
Basically cannot tell what is going to happen. For all we know, the low PPS is already factored into the market.
Anything is possible.
Good night all.
IMO
Plan of Reorganization(POR)- The filing of the POR on March 26th will have 4 elements
:
1) The secured, unsecured, and H’s will be paid out in cash, leaving around $400 million of cash in the estate plus the claims. See below computation of Cash to Preferreds.
2) All of the $400 million in except $50 million, see below, will be distributed to the Preferreds, representing 10% of Preferred Face Value. The remaining 90% of Preferred Face Value will be dealt with below.
3) The Existing Commons will be cancelled and a NEW COMMON will be issued.
The NEW COMMON will be exchanged from the Remaining Preferred Face Value of 90%, and the OLD Commons. This Exchange Ratio will be heavily argued and negotiated, but in the end, the Preferred will end up with the Vast Majority of the Common ownership and the rights to the claims that are not cash yet. I am guessing at least 95%. The OLD Commons will be almost 100% diluted.
4) The $50 million (or an amount of cash necessary to litigate for 2-3 years will be retained in the estate) will be used to pay fees for the “great expedition to turn claims into cash” which could take another 2 to 3 years. In the end, there would be a very low probability that there would be any distribution to the NEW COMMONS from this, or at least, the probability will be extremely low. As a side note, watch for the pre-seizure commons filing a class action to get their share of this so called “value”.
Thanks, but IMO, if JPM can settle WMI case, this still leaves Taxas case open, which won't stop the probing through discovery in to the actions of JPM (and subsequently FDIC).
I would assume JPM would want to rid everything all at once and not leave loose ends. If they leave Texas open, they are still under the gun.
It could be just speculators in WMB Bonds trading, but the volume is heavy. Or we could just be "thinking" too much. I have been watching the WMBs for a little while now.
I would not put anything past Rosen. It is very hard to figure out his intentions although he has vocalized it.
IMO.
Rosen said the deal, which could result in the dismissal of three lawsuits pitting WaMu, JPMorgan and the FDIC against one another, also is contingent on the resolution of claims from holders of billions of dollars of bonds issued by Washington Mutual Bank, or WMB. Without the bondholders' approval, or the disallowance of their claims in their entirety, the settlement could turn to "vapor," Rosen said outside court.
Evan Flaschen, an attorney representing institutional investors who hold about $2 billion in WMB notes and were not part of the settlement negotiations, expressed disappointment at the announcement.
Flaschen said the FDIC appeared to be more interested in getting released from WMI's claims that it improperly sold WaMu assets to JPMorgan at a "fire sale" price after the largest bank failure in U.S. history, rather than exercising its fiduciary duties to the bank's creditors.
"It appears that the FDIC is only looking out for its own interests and does not care for the creditors in the bank receivership it is supposed to be protecting," he said.
"It's pretty disappointing that creditors of a bank are treated worse than creditors of a holding company," Flaschen added, referring to the fact that holders of WMI bonds are expected to recover on their claims.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hSJsWmhbZyLfejIucjKC1lyur7WQD9EDEEK80
Does anyone find this troubling? Or it could be just speculators? (WMB Bonds are trading pretty heavy) Keep in mind that Rosen recently mentioned that settlement would include WMB Bonds in the last hearing (after fighting so hard to keep them out of BK court, but all of the sudden, WMB Bonds are needed for a settlement)
We know that in WMI BK, WMB Bonds have no priority in the case, however, anyone think that Rosen is trying to include to them to make this a true "global settlement"?
By paying WMB Bonds, it makes me think that Rosen is trying to put WMB Bonds in front of equity (although we know it does not belong there, because of FDIC seizure, if it happens, it does mean less money on equity side).
Is this the reason why Rosen keeps saying equity is out of the money and that it would be reflected on the POR?? (I understand that we have an EC, but we are talking about intentions of Rosen here.)
If WMB Bonds are happy, this would make everything go away (in the eyes of JPM and the FDIC). As for the investigations, I do not know how they would play a role in this. (I did not look at that aspect, other than WMB Bonds would drop their Texas Action and no longer fish for discovery there).
Thoughts anyone????
IMO
According to the calendar, I did not see a hearing date for this week (If someone is aware of any hearing, please correct, thanks). Only thing was the filing of the POR, which is a drop dead date.
imo
Agreed, have some power ready, "just in case." eom imo
I have no idea how it will trade Friday. If we go by history, Rosen has always made the PPS drop, even before he opens his mouth.
If you look at as the "boy who cried wolf," then this could be a head fake and the price would be flat or continue its decline until the POR comes out.
The big picture is P's are in the money, but we do not know how it would be represented in the "initial" POR Rosen would put out.
So the answer would be: It is up in the air at this point and very hard to speculate.
IMO
Looks like the P's are going to trade in the 30's tomorrow. eom
Right, they were trying to find out what the $50 million represented. eom
Chaarles: You are catching on!!! Excellent. eom
The $50 million represents a dividend payment. eom/imo
It fascinates me that with all the various interests milling around the WaMu situation, most of those one might assume would be very much aware of the LTW's, apparently aren't even aware they exist.
The POR estimates 3 years to unwind and close the bankruptcy.
A&M/Weil cannot even list the assets and liabilities of Washington Mutual. WHY? Leverage. Same as here.
Anyhow, this is not a standard bk, it is complex. Who is to say someone across the Atlantic has more rights to assets than someone in the United States? We are dealing with an international web of subsidiaries. Each country has their OWN laws and procedures. You do not think there will be litigation as to who gets what and who in what country gets recovery? Do you still think it is simple?
Just because you are in the United States does NOT entitle someone to recovery. There are too many variables at play here.
Resolving intercompany claims is easy and w/o litigation since it is within the company and is documented. The question who will be left w/ additional funds and who will be w/ less to pay creditors.
Having $17 billion is a given since they are unwinding.
As I have said, please consult an attorney. An attorney is the only one that will satisfy your questions.
Have a nice day. I have to got out and play tonight.
IMO.
Keep in mind, that the higher you are in the chain, the sooner a payout is, if there is any, of course.
Hope for a resolve sooner than later of course.
IMO. Not saying to buy or sell. Not saying who will get paid or not. Neutral post.
The way equity being consolidated into 1 shares, but retain their preferreds over commons, is by the transfer agent. The transfer agent will probably have it as a book entry or depository, i.e. 1/1000XXXX of a share, etc. None tradeable of course.
Regarding Lehman, we know that after 18 months, nothing has really changed. They still do not know how to proceed with unwinding Lehman, while milking the the estate w/ fees. All we have is the initial POR. This POR really does not tell you anything especially since there are no numbers involved. This throws us and creditors in the dark. (Leverage)
This is a worldwide company, i.e. international subs, US subs, (a web of subs everywhere) etc. Complex and huge in every way and should have been a too big to fail, despite their accounting practices. They all will be fighting/litigation. We assume A&M/Weil (do not want that and are/) is in settlement talks to come to an agreement otherwise it will further deteriorate funds destined to pay creditors, in favor of litigation (paying attorneys our money).
The Classes, 6 through 8, will be settled because, for example, the inter company claims, there may be funds the holding company may have as receivables to their subs. or vice versa. The "other" companies may owe money through receivables to the holding company. Settle this then the each sub will know how much is available to pay each creditors of their own subs. w/o litigation. Can't pay creditors without knowing what you have available. (Leverage)
After they find out how much money they have to pay their creditors, they pay them. Some subs will have insufficient funds to pay their creditors and these remaining creditors will invoke their guarantee (if they have one) on to the parent holding company. These (some, if not all) have a cap on the guarantee on how much they can collect on the parent. Can't pay creditors without knowing what you have available. (Leverage)
If in the event the sub was very profitable, they will have a surplus of funds. In those subs, the equity holder is the parent company. The surplus goes to the parent company so the parent will know how much is available to distribute for their creditors. Can't pay creditors without knowing what you have available. (Leverage)
All this brings us back to, A&M/Weil have no idea how to proceed and we and creditors know nothing after 18 months.
I am sure all this is the leverage A&M/Weil will be using to get ALL creditors to agree. The more litigation, the more funds deplete in the estate and not knowing which subs will have enough funds to cover claims (creditors will not know if they are in the money or not - Russian Roulette) and if the parent can make good on their guarantee (if funds were available) will be the motive for settlement. No transparency.
We wait until April 14 (?), the Disclosure filing, for a little more transparency. .
Also, on the POR, you will notice, the equity is impaired with no vote and subordinate is impaired with no vote. We, the subordinate class, are the peasants.
The above is my opinion only. Not saying who will get paid and who will not. Neutral post.
"Note: Only time this changes is if creditors agree."
And so if the Reorganization Plan does not necessarily have to be in accordance with the Chapter 11 bankruptcy
rules - if all Creditors agree - then maybe my interpretation of the Reorganization Plan and how monies will be distributed to the Capital Trusts may yet be correct.
Anyways the best way to resolve this matter is to just ask the Trustee.
ok folks they have us.
dont buy out of ASK put your orders in the BID
and wait.
i have two more orders @0.168 and @0.159.
You should look up what is says if the company filed BK. There would be your answer, because the company did not really merge, etc., it was siezed by the FDIC and from there, the FDIC, as receiver, sold assets to JPM. imo.
LOL, I wish. They make money for really doing nothing and uses an unlimited source of income - or the "spread" in interest rates tehy pocket (until the parent files BK). No way to lose money.
imo
The way I think is not from the prospectus. It based on a general rule of BK.
Briefly, under bk, sub unsec claims are the peasants (similar to commons of the equity) of the creditor world. They are the lowest on the totem pole. (There is actually a lower class, but I won't get into it.)
They are also as known as jr. claims. General unsec are of the same rank as senior unsec claims. All claims ABOVE jr. claims must be satisfied BEFORE jr. claims see a penny.
This is just the way bk works.
Note: Only time this changes is if creditors agree.
Regarding the guarantee, I briefly looked at over a year ago, so I can't remember what it said, but off the top of my head, if memory serves me right, guarantee means nothing. WHY? Because a guarantee kicks in if the bond does NOT pay. Well, since Lehman is in bk, if there was not enough to pay the bonds in Class 5 (for example), then how can Lehman make good on a guarantee when it is a lower claim. The guarantee is only good to the subsidiary. If there is not enough in the subsid to pay, then the guarantee kicks in to the parent company. There is more to it, but I really do not want to get in to it.
To everyone else: I am not saying to buy nor sell Cap Trust, etc. Not saying they will be paid or will not be paid in the FUTURE. I won't comment on equity. So please do not misconstrue my post. This is general information and the only point here is that general unsec and senior unsec is paid before subordinate.
I must get back to work.
The above is my opinion only.
Wyattk. Thanks for calling.
This pretty much further confirms what I have been saying. Senior unsecured AND General unsecured Claims are paid BEFORE Class 5, Subordinate unsecured claims.
Thanks once again.
I called the trustee, Mr. Guliano w/ BNY. Very nice man. Says they sit on creditors com. Said he did not know if CT's would be in the $. Said we should know that when disclosure statement is revealed. Stressed 'subordinated" debt. Said would probably be 1-2 years before payout, if any. Very professional; wouldn't say more than he was allowed. Said current trading status/price of CT's is refelctive of what market thinks - today. Could change @ anytime but he could'nt say one way or the other.
Obviously I was hoping for more info but in reality he just confirmed for me what already knew - bring on the disclosure statement! I think...LOL
Yup, same here and just relax. eom
Thanks Re: PM. I can't understand those people. LOL eom
Plan of Reorganization. eom
Poor Or Rich.
IMO, EC cannot talk to anyone re: issues at hand, however, so long as EC informs the "general public," and not select individuals, then there is no breach or insider information has been passed since everyone has the same access
IMO
Ok, who here called Elite Client Service of ETrade and started talking about Washington Mutual to her? I forgot her name, but she started chatin' w/ me and told me she was in Georgia. Only asking to see if it truly is a "small world."
LOL
I have these:
LEHM.HGE LEHMAN BROTHERS HOLDINGS INCORPORATED 6.75 12/28/2017 0.125
The ones you posted are senior. They are in the money. Mine are not in the money.
Linda. I am work and really can't hang out with you.
Anyhow, in life, everyone will have an opinion. People have agreements and disagreements. Everyone has their own perceptions of what they see. Some people see through rose colored glasses, some don't.
I know you are probably much older than I am so you probably already know this, but it is a good reminder.
Some people like to hear differing opinions, just not one mind set. It is best to be informed. This sets apart the differing personalities.
Regarding pumpers and bashers, you do know that a pumper is worse than a basher right?
I understand that since you own certain Lehman securities, that you only want to hear good things because it comforts you. Well, I guess what? I own Lehman bonds. I AM IN THE SAME BOAT AS YOU. I would like to get paid as well. I want to hear from both sides. I am not biased just because I own Lehman securities. I can separate myself from emotion and hope and access MY situation of what are MY risk vs. return on MY investments are.
Everyone has differing risk appetites. Some see commons as HUGE gains. Some are blinded by greed and do not see the risk that is involved. Some are content with what bonds would return, if any.
If you think that everyone from creditors all the way down to warrants wil get paid, then that is great. Like I said, everyone will have their own opinion, just like you do. If I post something, that is my opinion.
No one can tell the future, they can only make a deduction from what is known today for their own investment.
In the end, YOU hae control of YOUR investments.
BTW: If you were truly long on Lehman common, preferreds, etc., you would not even care of what the securities were doing as far as the stock price is. You would not care if the PPS has fluctuations, because in the end, you are waiting for the "payout" that you are anticipating. Right? So you should NOT be worried about other people opinions since it won't effect you in any way shape or form.
Just wait for the Lehman Disclosures. It will paint a better understanding.
Have a nice day.
The above is my opinion. Do your own DD. Do not trade securities based on what I post.
imo
Rocki, glad you got out of the equity over there. They are TOAST. The equity over there are clueless. I do not know if those guys are intentionally misleading people or they really believe what they are typing. What a shame.
"You can only lead a horse to water."
LOL, thanks Viva, actually, it was a joke. Sorry if you feel like I kicking you.
If I wanted, I could be like Johnny Winters (he is actually an ok guy, I had my disagreements with him in the past, but he nor I took offense from each other), but as you know me from the other board, that is the way I am. I am not like my profile. It was for laughs.
If you take offense to my profile, then I apologize. If you want to change it, then I can if you like.
Anyhow, I am a realist and a straight shooter. Everything I have said from when you have known me has been a straight shooter.
If you still feel that way, then I do not know what else to tell you.
Good luck!
Your due diligence seems well thought out except there is one give away.
RE: PM. CT's are a decent play. They are not in the money now, but if they do the "substantive consolidation," we are pretty much going to make a profit. Risk reward is good. Quicker return at the beginning then the amounts of payments will start to decrease as they try and unload the illiquid assets.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62F5RH20100316
Like in my other post, something is better than nothing.
If they go the other route like a standard BK, then there is just more risk. Of course, do not put more money than you want to lose, as another poster put it, "don't put your lunch money in this." LMAO This is then going to take a long azzzz time.
I am going to keep my bonds and ride it out. Well, actually, I have no choice, it tanked! LMAO
Lets just sit back and wait it out. We will have more info on April 14/15, when they file the disclosures.
Thanks and good luck!
See you on the other board soon!
IMO