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Well, this isn't going to be done until December or January. This has about 6+ months to go before its all said and done. I doubt they will go into liquidation, but anything is possible. You would think they would learn from Hostess, but then again Unions are a bunch of idiots as they are "old school". They don't care that they won't get anything at all.
Once they do agree, Management and Unions, then they start the POR process. No one ever accepts the first POR that is submitted. It will be bounced around and then 6+ months later, they will finally agree on it.
But I do agree, time line is short and hence the reason why I'm trying to get as many as possible to write in letters. don't want to keep wasting time on this
To be honest, i don't hold a ton of shares, but I hold enough to the point where I'm not going out without a fight. Being a hard working American, I don't like the fact that they are trying to take everyone's money. I'm not just fighting for myself, but all shareholders.
Regardless of "American" or not, I know a lot out there are all hard working and don't think anyone would want their money to be taken away. So hopefully everyone will write letters and fight.
I almost plan on sending a letter to each place (2 total) almost every week, or every 2 weeks. If I do that, I'll let you know and would encourage you to do the same.
If you want to keep fighting Sam, you can't give up
I have not heard back from them. I've gotten this type of information from several others that had ran into this situation in the past. Several of them said this is what they had to do in order to show force that one should be formed.
In one example, an EC had been rejected many times. I can't remember how many, but I believe it was more than 5. A lot had written in and was used as more evidence that not just Hedge Fund holders, or Financial Institutions were looking for an Equity Committee, but all shareholders.
Because they presented all of this to the court, towards the very end of the BK process, the Judge finally accepted that an EC should be formed due to the overwhelming evidence that one is needed. In the end, it proved to be very valuable.
At the request of these people that have been helping me, I can't disclose what company it was and the end result. Just know that it was all worth it.
Am I saying that this will happen here? Nope. What I am saying is, this is better than sitting around and doing nothing and complain on IHUB. I don't hold a ton of shares here, but at the same time, I'm not going to sit here and not fight this. I'd rather fight, then do nothing. That's just me.
Once I do hear back from the lawyer at McKool Smiths I will definitely let you know. I have asked for dates if he can provide it to me of the 3 denials. This way I'm telling him that I know it was denied 3 times to see what he says. If he comes back and just says 1 and gives me April 23rd, then it would appear to be only 1 time it was denied.
I want to inform him that I am writing and there should be several others who will be writing in letters. Hopefully he can use this to help if he tries to appeal and submit again. Last I talked to him a month ago they were looking at other options. I will probably call him again on Monday. Whatever I find out I will definitely share with everyone here.
For all share holders, if you want to help and keep fighting for EC, or at least try and get your voice heard in regards to your shares, below is the following you should do to write into the court and the US Trustee. I've been able to get started on this myself and plan on sending these out on Monday. The more who write in, the more we can show the court that an EC should be formed and our "voice" should be heard in the court. We can't count on the Board of Directors to stand up for us as we all know that is not going to happen. We are last on the list and currently have no voice at all.
It doesn't hurt to give it a try. Only thing you will be out of is 2 stamps and some time writing it up. I am currently typing all of this up and will print it out, hand sign it, and finally mail them out.
I'm going to try and keep Mike updated at McKool Smiths law firm that is currently trying to represent the EC. They are in a "hold" pattern while they explore another way to get it done. This still has 6+ months to go and we can still get an EC heard. The more people who write in, the better chances to show and prove to the court that an EC is needed to represent share holders. The excuse, albeit a crappy one, that the Judge mentions is that there aren't many interested share holders to warrant an EC. With all of us writing in, we can show that is not the case.
If you don't want to waste your time, no worries, fully understand. Currently it looks obvious with the negative equity that PCXCQ has that they won't keep the current stock intact. We all figured this anyways. However, with all of our voices and letters to the court, and hopefully the formation of an EC, we can still fight to have all current shares be rolled into the new company. Essentially saying whatever we have now, we would like into the new company. It is better than nothing and sitting around in a pity party.
This is just the start of the "official" letter. You will need to add in your own information. You don't have to say how many shares you have, and try to avoid any "bashing" and "this is unfair" type of comments. Keep it professional, straight to the point, and try and provide some examples. For me, I am going to use examples of a few companies, such as American Airlines and Tronox. With American Airlines, I will argue that the CEO said the BK was wrong and made sure to keep stock intact. Obviously they had positive equity so that was going to be good. For Tronox, they had a similar issue where another company was being sued for possible fraud. In PCXCQ situation, they are trying to sue Peabody for all the liabilities. You should do your research on this to provide solid facts, such as I am doing.
Any questions, let me know. I will do my best to answer them as best as I can.
You will need to reference this as a good starting idea:
http://patriotcaseinformation.com/pdflib/4201_51502.pdf
You will see at the top of how to address it.
Here's how the Objection should be headed:
IN THE UNITED STATES BANKRUPTCY COURT
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF MISSOURI
EASTERN DIVISION
In Re: PATRIOT COAL CORPORATION, et al.,
Case No. 12-51502-659
(Jointly Administered)
Debtor
Objection to the Plan of Reorganization
(or other Objection)
Here's where it should be sent:
Judge Kathy A. Surratt-States
United States Bankruptcy Court
111 South 10th Street, Fourth Floor
St. Louis, MO 63102
Your objection should state facts, not "its unfair" arguments.
I would also suggest sending a copy to the US Trustee's office, too:
Office of The United States Trustee
Leonora S. Long
111 S. 10th St.
Suite 6.353
St. Louis, MO, 63102-1125
Will do. When I talked to them they said it was postponed twice in NY and then it was moved to St Louis where it was officially denied in April.
I never saw any documents filed in the NY courts showing it was denied. Do you have this anywhere that shows it was denied? As far as I heard, the hearing never happened in NY and only in St Louis and April was the first time.
I'll ask them and report back what they say. Obviously if there are official documents that show it was denied before, not sure why they said it was only 1 time.
Talking to the law firm that was doing it they said april was only time it was denied. They were never heard in any other as it was rescheduled. Considering this is from the lawyers who is representing the ec I will believe them. There was never any official denial or rejection until april.
Indeed. I believe marayatano is correct, and I feel the same way, that the old stock will be gone. it appears there will be "new equity" since there is no more "old equity" left. Take this with a grain of salt as this doesn't really matter until the company directly reports this. Otherwise it's just rumors
However, I still think there is a good chance they will issue new warrants to existing holders. There aren't many holding right now anyways.
We still have another 6+ months to go before this even gets out of BK. Got a long road ahead and no POR has been done yet. Until Management and Unions agree on something, we won't see the POR for awhile. Even AFTER they agree, it could be another month or longer before they present the POR. Then we get the lovely process of making sure all parties agree on it. I'm sure we'll see several drafts, rejections for months before they finally agree on it.
By the way, there is still a chance an EC can be formed and get involved. They were not rejected/denied 3 times. They have only been rejected/denied 1 time. They were supposed to be heard in October, but was moved to December. When that came around, they decided to move it to St Louis. Then they pushed it until April and that's when the Judge made the stupid decision based on crap. No way Board of Directors is going to look out for the common share holder.
I'm currently working with a contact that has been very helpful and gracious enough to point me in the direction to write to the court house to show that there are many other share holders who want their voice heard. Once I get a lot more details, I will post it on here. I would urge all holders to write and do the same as the more people who write in, the better it will be to try and get the EC formed
I know some will say it's pointless, but it doesn't hurt to try. The most you are out is the price of a stamp. I think it's worth it if it means the EC is formed and they protect the share holder. Obviously no one has to do it, I'll leave it up to anyone that wants to.
Also, the law firm that is representing the EC has not given up and is still pursuing the court to have the EC. This will definitely help their case. Since this still has 6+ months to go, we have this time to fight and get our voice heard. Like I said, it's better than doing nothing.
More to follow!
I fully agree. Here is the link I was mentioning yesterday:
http://data.cnbc.com/quotes/PCXCQ/tab/8
as of right now, the total number of shares owned is 2.5 million.
As you mentioned, that's NOTHING. They could easily tell those 2.5 million holders, in which over 1 million of them is held by management themselves, that they will get shares in the new company. I believe a lot more is held by union works and retirees already.
It appears that former CEO and another manager own a lot of shares, and it may look like they bought it with their own money. Since it shows you the number of shares and what the value was at the time they bought.
for the former CEO he has 444.8k shares valued at 2,775,340. That would mean he had bought shares at an avg price of $6.24 per share.
I would think former CEO and the other upper manager Whiting (Richard M) who has 525.3k shares valued at $3,277,822 with avg price of $6.14 per share, would want to KEEP those shares as that is a lot of money
I know people mention that management will be getting new shares in the new company anyways, but I highly doubt the former CEO will get those back. Plus, if these guys bought these shares with their OWN money, then I don't think they will get those at all in new company. Only what they were awarded.
JMO
Yup, I figured as much. At this point, if they are able to point me in the right direction on getting EC formed, or anything at all, then I'm all for it. Much better than doing nothing and complaining about how crappy the stock is doing. We all know it is, that's why it's in BK. Something is better than nothing.
Ok cool, expect them to call you back. I know they are really busy, but they will call you back. I know they will be very interested in talking to you and they are very proactive on helping on all BK type of cases.
I am trying to schedule a call with them tomorrow to go over this more in detail. I'll share if anything valuable comes from it
Well, I don't think Bill Gates is holding this anymore. I think he sold out a long time ago. I think he either sold out at end of 2012, or beginning of 2013. I know it was not too long after the election. I had a link that had the current share holders and price list for the top 10 holders, and hedge fund holders. He disappeared from that around the time I mentioned.
My guess is he figured he'd never get his money back and sold whatever he had left and took it as a loss. You would think that since he lost so much anyways, he would just keep it all in and fight to get some of it back, and he would still be able to write it off as a loss. But, as of right now, I don't see him holding anything. I never heard or saw anything about Buffett holding any shares.
If I find that link again, I'll send it. I stopped watching it months ago as it wasn't doing any good.
by the way, I heard back from the person I mentioned earlier and they talked to the lawyers that is trying to get the EC. They are still watching the case and waiting to see if they can still jump back in with an EC.
This is the email I got:
**begin email**
Frank,
Just got off of an interesting phone call with Mike C. at McKool Smith. I am sharing with him an argument I just used in another bankruptcy case; the same one that a very large hedge fund wanted me to pursue, but it was too late by the time they asked for my involvement.
Briefly, his second argument and response was filed under seal, as they took discovery from the Debtors and agreed that there was confidential material contained therein that warranted protection. (I disagree with filing under seal, as does the court, in a new decision, but most haven't become familiar with the new ruling yet). Mike is following the case, and is determining whether or not he'll go back in another door, or whether to take another run at an EC...I think he and I will stay in contact, and I'll pass along anything of interest.
Regards,
**end email**
I'm going to give them a call tomorrow and go over this email I just got from them to discuss in more detail. I have also passed on the recent press releases that I saw and others that were posted today.
if there is anything worth sharing, I'll post it on here
Agreed on the POR to be filed to know for sure.
Your numbers look to be a lot better than mine and have valid points. I definitely agree that it would be new equity and all old is gone.
As you mentioned, next thing to wait on, which should be in the POR, is to see if they will allocate any of the new for existing share holders. There isn't many existing holders right now so I wouldn't see why they can't do it. but then again, they probably don't care and will just start from scratch.
Thanks for sharing the info, as always
so essentially blowing away all current shares and starting from scratch, correct? Essentially no current share holder gets anything at all? Which of course is what typically happens in BK anyways
Good share, as always.
Very good question as well. I would say a good chunk would go to them. Perhaps 10 to 20%. Obviously a guess. It could be 15% and this way Union and this other company comprises of 50% of the company, and the other 50% is left to the Board of Directors and other Management, and then more share holders that come in later on.
Also once the Unions starts selling their shares off, they will hold less of a percentage of the company
Hey Sam and all,
I was talking to this company for people that own shares of PCXCQ. They are looking to help fight to EC formed with the current law firm that was trying. If that doesn't work, they are also trying to help in other ways.
Here is their Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/DelawareShareholderServices
Here is their contact info. Send them an email, talk to them on Facebook, or give them a call. I've talked to them several times already and very helpful. The more people who express to them may help show Judge that there are a lot of people for this.
ileneslatko@gmail.com or 302-598-4129
Wednesday, June 19, 11:20 AM ET
Patriot Coal (PCXCQ.OB) says a restructuring plan that would pump hundreds of millions of dollars into the company is in the works, thanks to the help of two key creditors that are discussing backstopping a rights offering of new equity.
Indeed. We don't have the equity committee to represent us. But everyone is pretty much the union, the board of directors, creditors, debtors, the judge.
All have to agree so this is why it can take another 6 months or longer to get out of bk.
No worries Sam. I sent them and the board of directors an email today. If they respond I will pass it on to you via email.
I was lucky to have gotten a response before but not counting on any further responses.
I also agree with your statement. We will have to wait and see. I definitely do not count on them keeping it. Our only hope is they issue new shares to existing holders. But who knows for sure. We will know when POR comes out. It all has to be approved by everyone before its all done
Hey Sam,
Wanted to see if emailed the VP of Shareholders and CEO a couple of weeks ago?
did you hear anything back?
If you want, you can email me the info if you don't want to share it on here. Anything personal, or their email or replies, you can just email me directly and share. No need to post it on here.
As for me, I have not heard anything back from them. I'm about to send them another email and see what they say. I'm also going to look for the board of directors and email them as well. Would be nice to get a reply from them
yeah, that would be nice, but they won't do that. They have to go through the whole POR process, make sure ALL parties agree to it, including the Judge, etc. Still have 6 months or more left before they try and emerge from BK
looking sluggish today, probably cause it's Friday and the "pump and dump" is all over.
Thinking it will stabilize again in the .20s?
What you think chances are for it making to .50s or higher? I've seen some feedback on other boards and other places mentioning this will get to .50s very soon.
Think more news will be coming soon, but that may not be until sometime in June
This is all over twitter and many watch lists for tomorrow. Will be interesting on how well this keeps going up.
Oh yes I fully agree. They would avoid a huge suit going forward if they kept it. It would mean all parties that are in those law suits and kept the shares won't want to move forward on it as they kept the promise and protected share holders in the sense that they didn't get rid of the stock. But if they don't then those will go forward and would still give pcx a black eye for awhile AFTER they emerge from BK. Any bad press will be bad for them and their new stock price.
This all depends on the equity left in the company. Last year they were +500 million. This year they could be under that, or in the negative. If they are in the negative, then they probably won't keep it. My hope is that with the recent decision, they can start making money and saving, and therefore NOT be in the negative in equity and will keep the stock.
It would be smart to keep it in the sense that all retirees or current employees that hold shares already will get to keep them and the money for them, PLUS get a piece of that 35% and other incentives that upper management has offered.
Or they will just tell them that they will issue new shares to them in the first place. This way they keep it, or they get them back in the new company.
We won't know that until they file the POR. That will be where they will say if they plan to keep, wipe it out, or issue new warrants to existing holders
Since not many people actually hold the stock anymore, I would say it's a good chance they can keep it and issue that 35% or more to the unions/retirees/etc.
I do know the workers already own shares. Wiping out what they already own would piss them off more. Of course, if they come back and say they will just issue those shares in the new company, then they won't get pissed. Naturally, it would be nice if they did that for all share owners. I'm not sure if they can just do the workers and NOT do it for all holders. Or if they do it for the workers then they have no choice but to do it for everyone. I'm not 100% sure on that.
something is still telling me that one way or another, holders will get something. Whether they keep it, or issue new shares, I have a feeling they aren't going to wipe it all out
Anytime, Sam. Let me know if you get any response from them as well. Keep it nice and clean, don't get too upset. Last thing we want to do is to come off too mean and then they won't respond at all
I've put in a call to McKools Smith law firm to see what they think about these responses I have received. Considering their response is much different than what the judge said, it would be interesting to see what the lawyers say. If it's anything worth sharing, I will let you know. If you give them a call as well and you hear from them before me, just shoot me an email unless you want to share it on here
thanks
Think I'm going to get sick from all the roller coaster going on. Good lord.
Was nice to see it at almost .19. Thought it was going to keep moving up. not fast, but a steady climb. Guess I'm wrong, AGAIN.
Marayatano, you in this or just bonds? Something tells me you are probably just in the bonds piece. Understand if you don't want to say, just curious.
Always like to hear from people who are in this and why they are staying in, whether it's bonds or the stock.
exchanged a few emails with CEO and VP of Share Holders. I'm hoping to be able to keep doing this and see what they say. I'm surprised they are replying to me, but happy that they are taking time to respond to my questions and concerns
Thanks Sam. Just sent you an email
Guess it doesn't matter, looks like it's tanking again. Think we still got another 6+ months before this is out of BK anyways.
hey Sam, I have contacted the VP for share holders and CEO of PCX and received a reply. I would like to share this with you and see if you are able to email them your concerns as well. I'm not sure if I should post that type of info on here unless anyone wants it.
I don't have a way to send a private message, so not sure if you want to give me your email address or how I can pass it along to you.
I do have an email account I use just for signing up for sites that I don't care that send me spam. It's a bogus account and I can have you email me there and I can get your email address and then send you the emails I have from them from my normal account
Let me know how you want to do this.
Thanks!
haha, I wish! If any of this helps get them on the feet, then so be it. I don't think upper management should get anything (bonus wise) since they aren't making any profits AND they are in BK. I guess that's the biggest problem with all those bonuses. I understand you want to keep key people, but you're not turning any profit, mainly because you're NOT selling. I know WhY they aren't selling, because they can't show a profit which would get it thrown out of BK.
But just like that, rewarded for a company in BK. If all of it actually helps and they do what is best, then I fully understand. We are last on the list, and I've accepted that.
I would like to think they would do something to keep it intact or give new shares to existing holders. would be nice, but I'm not betting on it either. Have to be prepared for the worse and if any of the good stuff happens, then it's icing on the cake
Thanks all for the quick update. I knew dilution happened around August/September time I believe, since it was approved for the 100 million shares at the meeting last year.
I guess there was even more dilution?
Well in that case, that completely blows because I really thought this baby would be way up there in a couple of years.
It's been awhile since I've been on this board, but wanted to see what's been going on.
I've been reading that the financials are not so well and not many sales going on for revenues. Some mention of possible buyout, or who knows what
My last memory was last year that someone named Visser had invested $5 million into LQMT. This turned around and got him over 50+ million shares at an avg price of .11.
Is this guy still invested in LQMT?
You would think that this guy with all his money isn't going to let 5 million just go away without some return. I recall he can't exercise any of his stock until 2014 or 2015. That being said, I would think if I invested $5 million and couldn't sell anything until 2014 or 2015, and they aren't doing jack with it, leading the company down to this level (he got in at .11, and this was up to .63 last year and was hanging around the .30 area) and with other talk, I would be very pissed off and would want to know what happened.
so yeah, not sure if someone can take a min to fill me in on that whole fiasco. Thanks!
It would work if you have 10,000 shares now and they say they are going to do a 1 to 1 offer. So they would give you 10,000 in the new company. The value will be determined once they emerge from BK and whatever NYSE or NASDAQ says its worth, that is if it is entered back into either of those.
If they decide that they don't want to give you as much and want to do a 2 to 1 offer, then for every 2 of your shares, you get only 1 share in the new stock. So your 10,000 shares would only be 5,000 in the new company stock.
so if we say it opens at $4 a share, then that's the value.
1 to 1 = 10,000 shares
10,000 x $4 = $40,000
2 to 1 = 5,000 shares
5,000 x $4 = $20,000
I have no clue what they will do, but that's how it would work IF they decide to do that. It may go from PCXCQ to PCXS or something else. Don't think it would go back to their old stock name. It could be something totally different
Of course, this is only from some things I've read. I could be WAY WRONG on all of it. I'm sure if I am, someone will correct me on the board
Ah, for some reason I thought it was 30% offer and their counter was the 57% and they came back with 35% plus other concessions. Guess I was wrong then.
It would be a very smart move if they follow American Air. But if they are going to give the Union retirees the 35% stake in the company, then it looks like it will be in new stock. I'm not sure if there is a case to where this happened where a union was given this percentage of stock AND they kept it intact.
So my thinking is new shares. BUT, they should do the right thing on top of the 35% to the retirees and issue new warrants for existing holders. If they did that, then I would say this has a good chance of climbing up to $3 to $5 range, similar to American Air. The next question will be, how much of the new warrants to existing holders get. Will they do a 1 to 1, or for everyone 2 shares of old, you only get 1 in the new company. So we're not sure what it will be until it's pretty much at the end. Still got the rest of the year and I still believe this will start climbing higher and higher. Will take a little while, but it will get up there once this moves along better. Not sure what spiked it up last week, but it should start moving up again. We just need to quit having the pump and dumpers blowing it up. I knew some people who jumped in and then sold the next day and made their 10 to 20%. Of course when they all did that, it just plummets the price, and that's what we have now. But something started it and these others jumped on to make a quick 10 to 20% and crashed it. Someone bought a lot of shares and only a fraction actually sold. So someone is still holding on to a lot of shares. Not sure if they know something we don't, but I would think if someone bought as many as they did at a higher price, its bound to do something
Who knows. I doubt judge is doing that. However I don't think any of them care that they didn't get out before bk. Once they are done they will get their shares in new company anyways. Current holders won't get that luxury unless they and judge agree to it. So far it doesn't look like it as it appears this judge is an idiot and has no business touching a bk of this size.
Indeed. This is also why the old CEO was smoked, but the jokes on everyone else because he still got his bonus and whatever severance package.
Judge is trying to do "right" in the sense with keeping key employees with the release of the bonus money. However, the old CEO and I'm sure other peoples bonus is all rolled into it. Judge doesn't want to deny the bonuses for 325 employees, 1 of which is the old CEO. Don't burn the other 324 because of 1 idiot. It's a smart way to ensure CEO still gets his bonus even though he get smoked for driving it into the ground.
Of course, thanks to that old idiot CEO, you have a good law suit against the company since he promised everything to the share holders.
If the new CEO is any kind of a good man that he claims to be for the people in his videos and his statements, then like you said he would keep the stock, or at least issue new warrants to existing holders. I'm not going to hold my breath on either one though. Can't trust them to do the right thing because if they were trying to do it, they would have done it BEFORE it even got to the point of BK. They should have tried to get things done with the unions at least a year before they filed for BK.
Excellent opinion, and I would definitely agree with it. Very good point with the Hostess deal.
I believe that the non-union works agreed so quickly because they don't have a union that is trying to take their money, or hold out for more. They WANT to work and with the economy still not back on its feet, they need a job to live
For the unions, they want EVERYTHING. You would think that they would have learned from the Hostess issue. They want EVERYTHING, but ended up getting pretty much NOTHING.
From the initial videos I saw and other articles I read, is that the Union and CEO/Upper management have come close to the agreement with that 35% stake in the company and other concessions. Hopefully that will be also approved by Judge and everyone else so that is done. Then this can keep moving along.
Have a good weekend!
Well I don't think it matters. Whatever stock they have now, they will get when the company emerges from BK. Obviously if they keep it intact, or issue new warrants to current holders, they keep it. But, if they issue new shares, they will get them in the new company stock. So they probably don't care either way.
Plus if they sold pre-BK they can get into trouble since they knew before hand. I have a feeling they knew it didn't matter because they would get new shares once they emerge from BK.
The Judge is definitely an idiot. She has no business trying to do this case of a company this size (multi billion dollar). She may have done some million or hundred million dollar cases, but nothing anywhere close as big as this company. So she has no clue what she is doing. She made it obvious when she denied the EC being formed. She "thinks" that The Board of Directors and Debtors are going to protect shareholders, and we all know that is complete BS.
This still has many months to go. I don't think this is going to be finally "over" until October. I still think that is the plan the whole time for PCX. To drag this out until Sept/Oct/November time frame. Get this all started back up and get ready for 2014 and hit the ground running. They haven't been trying to sell at all, taking huge losses and blaming the economy and everything else. When in fact it's because they aren't trying to sell, so they can make it look really sad and pathetic, to gain sympathy in the court and against the union (as well as shine the spotlight on Peabody). But once out of BK, they will be selling big time as they need to then get more investors in Jan/Feb time to shoot up the stock price. Can't do that unless they show PROFITS in their 1st quarter since emerging from BK.
we may not be with that party as they may get rid of everything and start over. I'm still holding out as this has a long ways to go. The POR will be the first indicator as to their full intentions with current holders. Even if they say they plan to get rid of all shares and no one gets anything, it still doesn't mean this won't keep moving up, and doesn't mean they won't change their minds. It's the rough draft and intended to look like the worst possible outcome of a POR. Then everyone weighs in with their opinions on changing it (e.g. Debtors/Creditors/Unions/etc).
lots of waiting to do.