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It is also a shame that some longs fail to see that other longs are entitled to think the pace of sales is taking too long, and has too great a dependence on other companies to ensure a predictable model.
After 10+ years, and multiple curves along the way, some longs find it difficult to believe that Wave would still be so dependent on the timelines of others to engage customers in the adoption of interoperability, and hardware managed security. Also, in the cases where trials and 200k - 400k seat pipeline opportunities are underway, some longs expect to see more sales by now ~ at least one more industry credible than Papa Gino's Secret Sauce.
It is also hard for some longs who are actually in the industry to believe that a trial lasting more than 1-year is possible in IT. Therefore, the Enterprise sales you are seeing now are mere dribbles (possibly even failures) of a much larger pipeline, which Steven himself grows weekly.
OH NO ~ Let us not for a moment misinterpret the feelings of some longs, and I for one, will not allow other longs to define that feeling for other longs, as though it were something negative, and disloyal ~ so let some of these longs be very clear here.
- It's not the vision ~ that was great!
- It's not the partner building ~ although I'd like to know who's really still a partner, and who's not. Partnering is good.
- It's not that those longs don't already know that this market is taking a very long time to mature ~ I think they understand that
- It's not that those longs didn't already know that Wave was going to be dependent on other behemouths to get trusted computing adopted and moving forward ~ everyone knew that.
- It's not that those longs don't understand that sales ARE HAPPENING! ~ they certainly do understand that sales are happening, and that's exactly the point!
It's time for sales to happen.
It's time for more sales than Wave is getting to emerge.
The financials should show more adoption absent announcements.
200k - 400k pipelines and trials should yield more sales NOW!
FDE should not prohibit the above from happening, only give those trialing already 1-more reason to become a customer ~ and that's not really happening in some longs views.
If some longs are going to continuously elude to how blind other longs might be (have eyes but can not see), please be prepared for some of those blind longs to consider other longs a bit too gullable, and trusting.
The only difference is, those "so-called" blind longs don't respond with anger in their response, or try to drive the "more gullable" longs away from this board.
My very best regards to you Ramsey ~ just an opinion not an attack
Tampa123
Ramsey2 - And what pace would that be exactly?
Just an observation, and one many of you should already be aware of, but the recent PRs show an obvious dependence on other companies. A clear indication as to why Wave can't jump out there and make revenue on their own. When Seagate makes money, Wave will make money. When Safenet makes money, Wave will make money, and so on....
That is why this is such a long, long slog. Once customers begin to holistically adopt the concept of Trustworthy Computing, and these companies start selling their solutions to that end, then and only then will Wave be dragged along ~ and make some money.
It's a sad reality of our investment ~ but it doesn't mean they can't, or won't make a lot of money down the road. It just provides an explanation for the reality of the situation. The only concern here would be the the slog and partnering timelines take too long to allow Wave's value proposition to be minimized, or go away via competitors.
So I suppose what we should start wanting to know is... Other than Seagate and SafeNet, who else in the myriad of past partners is still a Wave partner ~ and then start rooting for them to sell trusted computing.
I don't recommend listening to the presentation. It was boring. As many said previously, it had very little in the way of benefits analysis, ROI-benefits, competitive-advantages (maybe 1), and did I mention it was boring.
Trust me. You can still be a long investor in Wave and not feel bad for missing something like this.
To each his/her own
Oh. and it was boring. Would love to know how many attendees there were too.
Weby - I'd like to head their sales department and write that manual myself
T123
waverider - Dell to close Austin computer factory, lay off thousands worldwide
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/040108dnbusdell.1be6ad8c.html
Dell to close Austin computer factory, lay off thousands worldwide
09:06 AM CDT on Tuesday, April 1, 2008
By ANDREW D. SMITH / The Dallas Morning News
asmith@dallasnews.com
Dell Inc. expects to save $3 billion a year by closing a desktop computer factory in Austin and laying off thousands more workers around the world, the company announced Monday.
The Round Rock, Texas, computer maker reiterated its intention to cut at least 8,800 jobs – about 10 percent of its workforce worldwide. It has already cut about 3,200 positions in the past three quarters.
Dell will close its Topfer Manufacturing Center by Jan. 1, cutting about 900 of its 17,500 Austin-area positions in the process.
"The actions Dell will take during fiscal 2009 and beyond are expected to position the company to further accelerate growth in its five focus areas: global consumer, enterprise, notebooks, small and medium enterprise and emerging countries, while improving profitability and cash returns," the company said in a statement that came after markets closed.
"In addition, the company will take further actions to reduce total product costs across all areas, including design, manufacturing and logistics, materials and operating expenses. Dell expects that the initial benefits from these actions will begin to be realized in the second half of this fiscal year."
The $3 billion savings come to more than 5 percent of annual operating expenses for Dell, which has come under pressure from investors and analysts to cut costs.
And further steps are under consideration.
For example, Dell will decide by the end of the third fiscal quarter whether it should sell its Dell Financial Services unit.
88Carrera _ You hold on to that belief if you want, but I can assure you that in my case you are very wrong.
I have many, many many thousands of reasons that I want Wave to succeed. I just don't want them to take a lifetime doing it. And, if there truely is opportunity for Wave, which all of the longs on this board (positive or growing tired) believe, I don't want them to miss out on it.
FloridaWave ~ You're absolutely right!
That's all we've had to do for over 2-years now
May1Sep2 ~ just trying to add a little levity to the situation
Positive posters do NOT help the share price
Positive posters are the first to speculate about the share
price going up, and haven't been right for almost 8-years.
Why do you positive posters still post positive posts?
I'm almost certain you won't find this post humorous, but I continue to be amazed at those who believe that something other than revenues, and revenue-producing news have any major impact on the share price. The people (like you and I) who have owned these shares for years are not likely to buy/sell based on the posts ~ positive or negative. Revenues, or lack of YES.
Tampa123
Jay and Snackman ~ they do, and who cares what you believe.
I know what I know ~ or I wouldn't say anything.
Snackman
While I'm sure Steven may already know about this ~ I cautioned you before that you may be educating Wave's competition with posts like this.
Send it to Steven
ARMP - you don't mind if I disagree ~ do you?
If he can't monetize his product, and increase shareholder value ~ he has to go. Sorry!
An unlimited runway doesn't cut it.
And Stevens credentials awk?
oh sorry. I'll stop then
goepling - it's not misinformation ~ although I'm sure you prefer to take it that way.
I suppose it serves the needs of this board to attach everything possible (without direct connections) in PC security to Wave, but a simple leap of a known connection is misinformation.
You guys!
lol myself
Sanckman - Here's my second choice. I pick him because of his relationships with some big movers, and knows the industry very, very well. Choice #2 would be Peter Biddle, and he's already shown he would go to a smaller company recently.
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:_PEQjq8yC14J:conferences.oreillynet.com/pub/w/52/speakers.html+Microsoft+Peter+Biddle+bio&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us
Peter Biddle
Peter Biddle was Microsoft's DVD evangelist in the mid 90's, a founder of CPTWG and the ill-fated SDMI, and the original inventor of the DarkNet. He is the father Palladium and NGSCB, and his team shipped TWC-derivative technologies in Windows Vista, including BitLocker™ Drive Encryption. Cory Doctorow is the Canada-US Fulbright Chair at USC, a DRM-hating copyfighter who has been part of several successful projects to destroy DRM standards-setting efforts, and is presently writing a book about it called SET-TOP COP: HOLLYWOOD'S WAR ON YOUR LIVING ROOM.
That's 2 in 5-minutes
Snackman ~ You do not get to pick the 3 as worthy or unworthy. You asked me to come up with 3-names and bios. You did not mention anything about your judging my selections as to whether the person would accept the job or not.
So unless you can say with positive certainty that he would not accept under any circumstances ~ then I'll leave it stand as my number 1 choice
Look yourself. That's all I got. So let's just say that Dell hasn't announced Infineon as a preferred provider, rather INTEL, another Wave partner that's produced no revenue for Wave has.
Sorry for the confusion
okay Snackman - Give me a little time and I'll do it just to quiet you up on this. Let's assume salary would be equal to Steven's with some reasonable upside to equity ~ if that's still possible.
Here's the first one. This guy is mostly responsible for building all of the relationships that Wave has today:
http://yuan.ecom.cmu.edu/trust/cd/Bios/Lark%20Allen%20Bio.doc
Lark M. Allen
Executive Vice President, Corp. Development
Wave Systems Corp.
Lark Allen is Executive Vice President of Corporate Development at Wave Systems Corp. Mr. Allen is responsible for the technology guidance and market development for Wave's trusted client architecture and developing strategic relationships with a broad range of platform, technology, network, content, security and services companies who can benefit from trusted functions in user devices at the edge of the network.
Prior to joining Wave, Mr. Allen was employed for 28 years with the IBM Corporation, where he last served as Director of Worldwide Market Strategy and Marketing Support for IBM's Networking Divisions. His career included a number of executive level management positions in product strategy, marketing, consulting and services, sales and product development, both domestically and in worldwide positions.
Mr. Allen holds a Master of Science in Industrial Administration from Purdue University where he was a DuPont Fellow as well as a Krannert Scholar. He also holds a Bachelor of Science in Physics from Brigham Young University. Currently residing in Raleigh, North Carolina, Mr. Allen has 5 children and actively participates in skiing, backpacking, photography, and astronomy.
Snackman ~ I could if I wanted to look ~ trust me!
But, I did answer your question without being specific. There are candidates out ther that would fill the bill right now ~ and fill it well.
goepling ~ clarification over question
If Infineon was named "a" preferred provider for Intel on TPM 1.2, and Intel provides TPM 1.2 to Dell ~ what's the leap here we're trying to make. Below is a link that Dell laptops are, and/or will be equiped with Intel 1.2 TPMs. So while (perhaps) not all TPMs will come from Infineon through Intel to Dell ~ it's presumed that some would - No?
http://www.bikudo.com/buy/details/165522/dell_latitude_d630_intel_core_2_duo.html
Snackman - unfair question but.....
I'd start with someone who could help form a stronger financially productive relationship with Microsoft, Seagate and/or the Banking or Healthcare industry.
I believe there are tons of candidates from these companies or markets that would fill the bill. All of which would know how to make money with Wave's product.
Ramsey2 ~ That's exactly the point
We would argue that we're not finally here STILL ~ because the first big orders have not materialized ~ yet they've had ample time (IMO) to appear by now.
You can hang on without impatience if you wish to hold to the multitude of excuses for why this big account has not emerged. I am not you, and yet, as a Wave long I feel that the opportunity to get a large account has already presented itself, and been lost a few times over already.
I sell into large enterprises, and I know the normal sales cycle, and adoption of new technologies as well as Steven does ~ perhaps better! If your prospects are looking at your product, then they're alread making an investment into a decision on your product. If they like it, then they will buy. But, it doesn't take anyone 1-year to make this decision. On the CCs I heard over the past 1-year, there have been several large seat opportunities come Wave's way.
Where'd they go?
IMO, the ones he (Steven) spoke of last year are not still in trial any longer. They've already made up their minds
wavedoctor ~ let's take a look at those partners for a second.
These partners will partner with anyone who offers them an additional opportunity to make money ~ that includes Wave.
However, while Wave is getting pennies to be in the box, Dell also announced Infineon as a preferred provider. Now although Steven explained what he believed that meant, in his own words ~ and I'm not disputing his words here ~ it does speak to my point. Infineon also got Dell's PR.
Intel ~ Nothing either, but others in there too.
And let's not forget that the best demonstration of partner strength is revenues generated by them on our behalf ~ or in partnership. Show me this?
To be as frank as I can ~ partnerships mean nothing to Wave's partners unless money can/is being made. If Wave doesn't find a way to convince trial customers to convert very, very soon, there will be no money to be made ~ and I fear these 'so-called' great partners will seek their revenue wherever the money can be made.
It's happened with IBM, AMD, SafeLink, Rascals, the French Banks, on-and-on. All had relationships with Wave. And hat about Wave soon becomming the number 1 biometric reader producer ~ wasn't that stated by Steven too? Where did that evaporate to.
Tough questions ~ no answers ~ yet the expectation is for patience and unquestioning loyalty. Why? It's an investment!
Snackman ~ Here's why
AT&T is a great company. AT&T changes CEOs from time-to-time.
Why?
Because one of the CEOs may not be helping its investors get shareholder value, which is what the CEO was hired to do in the first place.
Do we as investors:
1. Get out of our AT&T investment entirely, and ignore all of the good products and services AT&T offers? Or
2. Do you change CEOs, and get someone who will take advantage of those products and services in the marketplace, and increase our shareholder value.
It's a judgement call.
Lastly Snackman ~ I know that you don't like to lose money either. So when do you replace the CEO in a company where their products and services are "supposedly" ground-breaking?
waveway ~ and praising SKS for his lack of productivity hasn't done much for our cause either.
You can't speak of the future of Wave as if it is a foregone conclusion that all of us who question current events will all have to eat crow someday ~ beacause it may turn out all of us who've invested in Wave will have to eat crow.
There is no guaranteed success here. Steven has to lead the comapny into profitability ~ not just lead it into debt further and further. If you can't show that those who come trial actually convert at a high percentage, then that puts your model and leadership into question.
Steven has to show me the value of his partnerships and/or products now ~ just telling me has gotten old now.
The bottom line here is, now that a pipeline has been identified, and some number of trial seats have been actively kicking the tires ~ the conversion rate (or lack of) of that pipeline speaks louder than anything any of us post on this board. I think Doma knows that. I think others on this board have to know that. And I know Steven surely knows that.
Opportunities that do not materialize in a reasonable period can be assumed to be opportunities lost for one reason or another. While we may not know the reasons (because Steven won't tell us) we know they're not all being converted at a high percentage. If they were, we'd see more revenue in the books, and we'd hear Steven telling us more about them ~ even if he couldn't name them.
The truth is sitting out there with these opportunities. If they don't convert, then whether Steven tells me "all" of the facts, or not doesn't matter. His financial reports are all that matter now, because we now know there's a pipeline.
That's a fact that even Steven can't avoid.
waveway ~ they are hooking up with more companies than just Wave, and they would have no problem at all riding on the back of whomever provides them the best opportunity for revenue.
Said in the short ~ they owe nothing to Wave. Wave has to earn their continued loyalty every day
ASISEEIT ~ We don't see it too differently, and I respect you views greatly. However, I think that we'd all agree that if Wave could simply land 1 substantial account (not taking anything away from Papa Ginos ~ but that horse has run its course now) that they could validate their business model on, that would eliminate all of these conversations.
It's bound to happen (I'd agree). But, you must also agree that in an industry that's constantly reporting breaches and crying for the kind of security Wave can deliver with its partners, I am finding it increasingly more perplexing that the 1 substantial account hasn't already been found by now ~ unless there's more to this story than any of us know about Wave.
I feel this is a valid concern from me (an investor), and if Steven knows what he knows, then he should know that eliminating this concern would put an end to all of this. All of my postings are aimed at trying to discern why many accounts haven't emerged ~ let alone just one. I'm wondering if Steven really knows why, because with hundreds of thousands of seat opportunities, and trials that are 1 or 2-years running now, we should have found a few by now.
Wouldn't you agree?
waveway ~ How do you know I don't? or How do you know I haven't tried?
I'm really not unhappy if I don't reach him directly, as I didn't invest in Wave for him to sit on calls with investors all day long, giving information (privately) that he could, and should just as easily provide publicly on the Qtly conference calls.
ASISEEIT ~ Here's why ...
Whenever Steven is asked about share price, he says (paraphrasing), I just want to continue to make meaningful partnerships, be on every machine and perform according to OEM and customer expectations. If I do that, the share price will take care of itself.
Dahhhhh! No kidding?
The way I see it (or ASISEEIT) Steven needs to start owning the responsibility for generating revenue for his shareholders, instead of putting that burden on the shoulders of his partners, or blaming the immaturity of the market. It's his job to educate the market, and make sales ~ not just one of those. Educating the market has been a drain on capital. Now, with almost 2-years of trialing customers, all of the press about lost data, and Wave supposedly having the the most eloquent and comprehensive solution out there ~ He(STEVEN SPRAGUE) needs to find a way to take advantage of that market ~ not wait to see if it comes to him.
I don't like his answer regarding share price. I never have. As an ex-CEO myself, I consider his answer only a partial answer ~ that should be closely followed by, "and here's what Wave and I are doing, why no one has bought yet, here's what's happened to Wave's 200k seat pipeline over the past 2-years. Once we educate the IT department about all of the TPMs they already have ~ do they turn them on then ~ or what?
A bit more info about my investment would help me get over the cringe I feel when he says, "The share price will take care of itself". That's HOWISEEIT!
C'mon Snackman ~ with all of the shares that I read you have, you ought to have some pull. Get' em going will ya?
T123
I don't see how share price can't matter when you're being pushed down to around these numbers. It just doensn't make any sense to me why this is okay with anyone in Wave management.
To all,
I am going to post this so that you all at least know. I recently spoke to someone who gave me serious reason to worry about our practice of identifying any Wave Systems lead opportunities on this board.
Given what I know, I would strongly recommend that you send leads directly to Steven Sprague, and not continue to publish all of these potential opportunities on this board. This may seem insignificant to you, but I do not think it is.
If you wish to help Wave, then I would communicate "directly" with Wave (or Steven) on these matters going forward.
Tampa123
waveway ~ for you to believe that no one is doing anything about it is naive. And, my posting on this message board is not leading, following or getting out of the way. It is simply posting one person's opinion.
For you to call your investment, or your family's investment a crapshoot is funny
waveway ~ I'm not remotely trying to be combative, but want you to understand that others feel the way they do ~ not because of what Steven says ~ but because of the lack of progress quarter over quarter for what actually happens. For example:
About 1-year ago now, we heard of multiple trials, and if I'm quoting Steven correctly, there were over 200k upgrade seats in the pipeline ~ and by his reporting, the number was growing every week/month.
So if I take what he said there at face value, as a forward-looking statement ~ no problem! Pretty exciting actually!
But now 1-year has passed ~ and what has he reported as closed? A few hundred seats ~ possibly even a few thousand. So is he making sales? Well to the infinity-focused glass half full person the answer is 'Yes' Wave has made some sales, and some progress on the upgrade front.
However, don't you wonder (even a little bit) where the other 190k seats went? And all of the opportunities that have come since then? Last quarter Steven said he was dealing with multiple opportunities per week. Don't you wonder why Steven can't predict anything with any certainty with a pipeline that big? And, that he never brings up his forward-looking statement again to explain what's happening (positive or negative) with those opportunities?
If not ~ then you porbably can't understand why the 'semi-glass-half full optimists', or 'the-glass-is-as-full-as-the-glass-is, and there must be a reason for that' realists are growing tired of the forward-looking statements that never seem to show any value in the mid- to longer-term.
1. Intel is another example. They were our savior ~ no revenue.
2. ST-Micro ~ fell off the map as far as revenues and discussions during CCs ~ why?
3. Government ~ spoken of only when brought up ~ but at least we all know how slow the government moves ~ so this is probably the most understandable. But, when you couple it with the EDS testing certification of 3-years ago and they've been in the government with Wave's stuff for years now, and they're a big company with some power to pull us into contracts if they wanted to ~ again, one has to ponder Wave's true progress here?
4. Reseller agreements made over the past couple of years ~ what have they contributed to Wave's revenues if Dell is 70+ percent of the overall revenue? What's up with these people?
I could go on and on, but I think you get the point. It's not what is being said ~ that's all exciting stuff that we need to hear. What we also need to hear at this point, I think, is what's happening with all of this over time ~ and not allow it to fall off the map as a non-event, or be replaced by the new opportunity du' jour (i.e. Seagate). Because, if we allow this to continuously happen, then I fear that Seagate could also not produce to our hopes and expectations, and we could all be sitting around, scratching our heads, and wondering why it didn't.
But, by that time, history has shown us that Steven will likely have something new to talk about, to take our minds off of what's already been said (forward-looking) in the past.
Think about it! There's quite a lot you don't know ~ nor do any of us. Unfortunately for Steven, his own words are now evidence of the fact that either something more should be happening by now, or something is wrong ~ and we're not being told about it. If there's 200k seats in the pipe, and a good number in trial ~ if Wave's products are as good as advertised, then a sale to the majority should result. They shouldn't just disappear after 1-year.
Just trying to provide a little of the thought process behind the not-always buying everything we're being told crowd.
Doma The first sentence you wrote was enough after 11 years
wavedoctor.....what has changed....Nothing!!
Weby,
There are a lot of out-sourcing companies, like EDS, Accenture, and so forth that would love to have PC/Data security out-sourced to them.
Inky ~ love your post.
But Wave is not considered by many to be disruptive technology as of yet. Unless you meant disruptive to my total net worth ~ then I would agree. It's okay IMO for people to vent, and even be down on Wave if they want to. Everyone is different ~ so trying to make them Stepford investors in Wave is a waste of your time.
However, I would agree that this is no longer a game for the faint of heart IMO. You either need to know why you're in, and act accordingly ~ or you need to decide if it's going to be another year of the same ol' same ol' ~ on which case, you always knew what your choices were there.
I'm of the opinion that Wave can no longer afford the same ol' same ol', and I think they know it. They need to get to cash-flow breakeven this year (early) or whatever is left of Steven's CEO reputation will be completely gone IMO.
1260 - Hard to see your logic here
While I'd agree that all good ideas take time, and one needs to have the strength of patience, let's not draw vague associations to every other good idea that ever came about.
It's not fair to imply that every seat-belt manufacturing company made money for its investors, because I'm sure not every one did. Some early-stage manufacturers may have gone out of business before it became manditory use.
It's also unfair to imply that one's show of patience "or get out" are the only two potential positions here. There are lots of positions for this investment.
We as investors should always be asking questions about companies we invest in, and not just sit patiently on the slidelines and wait for them to figure it out. People have gone broke several times choosing that course. If investors believe it's a good idea, and a worthy investment, then they also have the right and obligation to ensure (by asking questions) 1) that customers are being properly educated, 2) that the CEO is using his scarce resources (including cash) wisely, and 3) that the company's leadership is finding ways (not hoping for ways) to reward our investment.
Quite simply, there should be a survey that asks, "If you were told going in that your investment would take 15-years to fully start making you money, and your company might not even reap the rewards at the end of the day would you still have invested?"
I wouldn't have! I would have invested elsewhere for 10-12 of those years, and come back in when the price was 1/3 of what everyone else paid for it. While hindsight is 20/20, I believe that telling everyone to either wait patiently or sell is equally inappropriate. It's their investment ~ perhaps not their message board ~ but it is their investment to treat howevder they want. Why you can't give in on that point and let them be the way they want if they're not breaking any board rules has always been puzzling to me.
player1234 and I was one of them.