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Dear "fawt:" TATF holdings, reports
Please see posts # 1172&3 for our holdings, reports, and experiences.
We purchased mostly Teak as there are well over 100 years of experience and documentation with seedling-planted Teak in plantations worldwide.
There is very little published on cloned Teak, as it is relatively new; selecting the "best of the best" sounds very promising and exciting.
Dear "Vip:" Thinning reports
To date, we have received specific, written Teak thinning reports dated the following:
5/16/01
8/25/04
11/28/06
Further, we expect to receive another set of Teak thinning reports yet this calendar year.
On Teak, 100% of our '93-'96 Teak Trees are up-to-date and have been thinned or combined thinned/harvested at least twice.
What year were your trees planted? Are they Teak?
Dear "a1de:" Errors in your post # 300
For seed grown teak by TATF:
The 13,971 bf per 100 trees over 25 years on 3m X 3m or 1,111 trees per hectare--yields
366.1 m3/ha over 25 yrs. This is a MAI of 14.6 m3/ha/yr; well within what Centeno writes.
Where did your 23.3 MAI come from?
Centano's article was written 13 years ago and does not include any data from teak clones, which are cloned from the best of the best teak trees.
For 14-yr Teak clones:
The 11,970 bf per 100 trees over 14 years, planted 3m X 3m or 1,111 trees per hectare--yields 313.6 m3/ha over 14 years. This ia a MAI of 22.4 m3/ha/yr; a touch higher than Centeno's max, which did not cover clones.
Where did your 37.8 MAI come from?
For 20-year clones:
The 18,730 bf per 100 trees over 20 years, planted 3m X 3m, or 1,111 trees per hectare--yields 490.8 m3/ha over 20 years.
This is a MAI of 24.5 m3/ha/yr; this is 11.4% higher than Centeno's max but, again, Centano's article was written 13 years ago and includes no data from teak clones, which are cloned from the best of the best teak trees.
From where did you get 39.6 MAI?
Dear "Jus:" Information source in question?
How old were your trees at the time you measured; maybe 5 years old?
Where do it come from that "yield usually doubles from 5 years to 25 years in cubic meters per hectare?"
At year 5 the teak trees are still tiny in volume and grow rapidly after that, so the growth after the first years has to be much, much higher than the first 5 years.
Known growth curves for teak show that the MAI starts out small ( which would be obvious because the trees are tiny compared to their later size), then rise dramatically and then begin to taper off (the reason to harvest).
The MAI for any period of time is obviously equal to the increase in lumber volume per hectare (not just cut trees, all trees then growing) divided by the number of years--the increase in lumber volume per hectare is equal to the increase in lumber volume per tree growing times the number of trees per hectare during that time period.
TATF at 3 meter spacing plants 1,111 trees per hectare.
The MAI or m3/ha/yr figures for all the TATF periods are:
years m3/ha/yr
0-7 6.75
8-10 22.22
11-13 20.22
14-17 19.50
18-21 18.41
22-25 10.08
Check it out and let me know if more calculation explanation is needed.
What was the age of your trees at the time measured?
What is your documented growth-information source?
Dear "a1de": Teak Math Check, please?
As the forum host, could you please provide math and investment/reality checks for your participants?
The "Ethical" pdf seems to project almost 38,000 bf per 100 seed-grown Teak trees over 25 years for Finca Leola, right?
TATF (who does not make projections for native species) for seed-grown Teak projects just under 14,000 bf per 100 trees over 25 years--well within the norms for Teak, right?
What is reality (at almost 3 X projected)?
Finca Leola is asking about $100 per tree; and TATF (don't believe they offer seed-grown any longer) is asking $40 for 14-year clones (12k bf projected yield) and $50 for 20-year clones (18.7k bf projected yield).
What are your conclusions?
Dear jus: Thank you; you are 110% correct
Our last visit to Costa Rica was in 4/97. So we have NOT visited the majority of the 14/15 TATF farms; they did not even exist then!
We drove from San Jose along the coast highway thru Jaco to Quepos on to Dominical; stayed at Tulemar Bungalos and had a great visit.
Thank you again for your kind and expert geography lesson.
The newer TATF farms are not even shown today on the TATF web site map.
Maybe for the benefit of all investors, you could post a map showing all farms, Palmar Norte, Cortez, and where your Teak Farm was located.
Dear MattyO: "could have been a fine tree?"
What kind of tree is it, and how old when pix taken?
As "low-to-ground" as is the bifurcation in the picture of the "front and center" tree, it is frankly impossible for me to judge what should have been done, if anything, and when:
Pruned in first year, subsequent years, or now?
Culled just before you took the picture?
Culled @ 1st thinning?
Replaced 1st year?
Replaced now?
As has been mentioned before, thining/culling native species too soon may allow excess hot, tropical sun to dry the soil and actually reduce the growth rate of the remaining trees.
What did your tour guide, farm manager, or Mr. Brunner say when asked?
Dear MattyO: Good stands of tropical hardwoods
On your Hardwood Mix, no experience here. Is there also a 15% expected cull percentage?
Suggest your going to the AUDIT section of the Spring 2009 Tree Owner News.
If that does not give you a sufficient explanation of the current pruning/thinning/culling effort TATF is now undertaking, suggest you email Rebeca or Viviana with more specific questions.
Hope this is helpful.
Dear MattyO: Tree photos look fine to me
Based on all the trees we have seen on TATF farms, the few in you posted photos look very representative; there will always be some variability from field to field and row to row.
Hopefully, you will be very satisfied as your later-year Teak tree harvests come in; and, hopefully, we will all be happy with the value-adding on younger Teak to be done by TATF/TAH/Raleo' once they get re-capitalized.
Dear T.O. Thanks, got it
Dear T.O. 1063?
No comprende!
Dear jus: Suggested inspection trip & measurements?
In post # 1229 "planb" suggests a trip--careful inspection of trees, field, pruning, thinning, soil, etc.
Do you disagree with his reco?
re: email Wouldn't you just want the thinning info for your own use?
Dear jus: your tree sale, thinning confirmation
Might be worthwhile to not call, but send an email--if you haven't very recently--to Rebeca, copy Viviana.
It would be surprising if they have your individual, specific, yield etc. in Tree Owner Relations, in San Jose.
But they just might be able to give you confirmation as to whether one, or perhaps 2 of your thinnings, might have been completed on each farm.
Dear belmo: regarding teak inquiry
Unfortunately, no knowledge at all of your teak thinning.
If you either did not get an email response, or have not inquired lately at TATF, suggest you email Rebeca at "rvargas@tatf.com" and copy Viviana at "vluthmer@tatf.com"
asking simply if your trees have been thinned once or twice.
Hopefully we will all get another round of detailed thinning reports, as indicated by TATF, yet this calendar year.
Dear jus: Your Teak Farm sale & tree offer
Is there an earlier post here that describes your Palmar Norte Teak Farm ownership experience, or can you "give us a full report?"
If we understand your offer you want to sell:
800 '99 Teak Trees at las Lomas, a TATF farm
and
1200 '00 Teak Trees at San Gabriel, another TATF farm
all that you are advertising for sale for $20 per tree; correct?
What can you tell us about both the care (pruning, etc.) that your visits confirm and the thinning of your trees?
Dear MattyO: Why challenge facts with opinions?
On our '93 Teak trees in the del Rio Field on Santo Domingo Farm, TATF did both "REPLANTING" and "REPLACING" at their own expense and at a very significant loss of potential revenue (A COST); we had no reason to try to estimate to minutia the replanting gift. Why "look a gift horse in the mouth?"
We had 350 Teak trees replanted in the same field--location suitable for replanting after significant improvement to river flow and drainage. These were separate and apart from the 648 replaced Teak Trees given by Mr. and Mrs. Brunner on a separate farm--Rio Blanco.
We, and I'll assume many, many others, would have jumped at the chance over the years to purchase Teak trees planted in the early to mid-90s--and, at well over $20 each. I reckon 4-year-old Teak trees are WORTH what a buyer is willing to pay for them.
Color us very grateful for unexpected generosity, not in the contract!
What is trying to be proven (with opinions) here?
Dear jus: Where is palmar norte, in C.R.?
We are always looking to find opportunities on teak tree purchases.
Do you have older Teak trees for sale?
Dear jus: Where is palmar norte, in C.R.?
We are always looking to find opportunities on teak tree purchases.
Do you have older Teak trees for sale?
Dear belmo: Hopefully....
Rest assured, I'm not Mr. Happy Tree Owner nor Mr. sbrunner.
Hopefully my posts here have been almost exclusively factual, numerically factual; no unsubstantiated "opinions"; very, very few "beliefs."
If these posts from an "older/closer-to-original" treeowner (since '95) are not helpful, I will refrain from further posting.
Your perspectives appreciated?
Apologies for the "double post"
Dear jus: math 'fog' made simple/understandable
On our '94 Idigbo CREDIT, suggest you re-read to understand post 1213.
Checked my local phone book, did not find a "Happy Tree Owner" listed.
We assume if TATF had not replaced a reported 40,000 teak trees from their own account, they probably could have sold them for about $20 each.
Our math calculates that cash flow TO TATF as "rounded" to about $800,000.
Are you missing something?
Dear belmo: '97 Teak at San Rafael
Any chance you bought your ("only good") trees "already thinned" as I did at el Esperanza?
If not, might you have gotten your 7-year thinning report dated 11/28/06?
'93 & '94 teak replaced by TATF
Dear MattyO:
When our family visited the farms in 4/97, our '93 Teak trees were almost 4 years old. They were properly pruned and looked extremely healthy; sorry we don't have pictures as good as yours.
Following a devestating tropical storm on 7/27/1996 we lost, specifically, 255 beautiful 1993 planted Teak trees in a river flood at Santo Domingo; and 393 beautiful 1994 Teak trees in a river flood at Rio Blanco.
At no expense to us, and completely at the discretion of TATF, we had '93 & '94 Teak trees replaced long after the guarantee period.
These 648 replacement Teak trees were located in the Mango Grande field at Rio Blanco; they have subsequently been thinned/harvested twice. Additionally, some trees were re-planted, where possible, at Santo Domingo
Depending upon how those replacement trees are priced, we estimate the purchase price at close to $13,000. My understanding is that some 40k trees were lost/damaged and replaced by Mr. and Mrs. Brunner at a cost of about $800,000--all from the TATF account.
You can do the math as to the potential projected net profit for 648 Teak trees.
Dear MattyO:
Thank you very much for both YOUR input and YOUR concern about OUR expectations.
We can't SPEND a thinning report; nice to know, hope TATF can stay caught up after this year '09; But doesn't put PROCEEDS in the bank or IRA. Think about it; what decision(s) are you going to make with thinning report information?
We want the thinning/harvest teams out doing the prime work that only they can do--thinning and harvesting, not saw-milling and measuring, then drying lumber that may not be the right size or moisture content for a later product or lumber sale.
That is why in the last few years the harvest teams have been storing logs and cants, not milling lumber after felling trees.
You may KNOW the schedule and frequency on TATF sending out thinning reports, we do not!
On '99 Teak, I'm guessing tree owners should expect to receive about 60% of their total projected net PROFIT a year or so after their last harvest; and, about 91% for the final 3 harvests.
On the first 3 thinnings, expectations seem to depend almost completely on either the the local lumber market and/or on how successful TATF/TAH/Raleo' can add value and how soon.
On '99 MIX, not a clue!
Dear jus:
On 2.77% of our Teak holdings, we requested the PROCEEDS.
On the balance of our initial Teak purchases, we requested that the $2.51 per board foot of ('1a') thinnings be used for CREDITS with the many TATF purchase offers we received that we judged only to be excellent/very good.
These CREDITS, and the CREDITS from our '93 Idigbo 45%thinning (@ $2.05 per board foot), were used to buy only additional older Teak trees--virtually all planted in '96.
Most of our year 10 ('1b') Teak thinnings were delayed and were later combined with the yr 13 harvests.
On most of these combined thinnings/harvests we expect reports yet this calendar year ('09).
We too, are looking forward to success of the 8 value added products currently planned; and certainly the harvest and prime lumber-sale success of our 17-yr Teak harvests.
Dear belmo:
What additional information do you think you need about my '93-'96 Teak holdings in 18 different fields on these 5 farms: Campo Real, Santo Domingo, Rio Blanco, el Capital, and la Esperanza--and by-year enumeration of our Native Species in 9 fields on these 3 farms: Campo Real, Santo Domingo, and Rio Blanco? We have inspected our trees in C.R. and had a marvelous trip.
I am interested in helping you understand our plantings, thinning, harvest, and reporting facts.
What are your planting years by species, on which farms?
Dear MattyO;
You are partially correct about our expectations.
We hope the '93-'96 Teak Trees, as appropriate for their 17, 21 & 25th year harvests to, in fact, GET HARVESTED.
The next harvest--for '93 Teak should be after 17 full growing seasons--or in the J,F,M period of 2011.
If the dry season rains again do as they did in 2007 and 2008, I would hope the equipment harvests again are NOT done (to the detriment of the remaining roots of our excellent Teak Trees) as this is where a projected 78% of the total projected profit lies. Whether or not oxen are brought in again to protect the roots during harvest is another management decision.
We are currently expecting thinning reports yet this calendar year ('09) on all the '93-'96 Teak combined year-10thin/year-13 harvests that were "caught up" since we received our last thinning reports.
We do not yet know the planned freqency of thinning/harvest reports going forward.
Nor the schedule for our 7 remaining native species that have not yet been thinned.
Dear Planb:
We also are looking forward to seeing the new value-added products, but have seen nothing published, either.
Are you a tree owner genuinely interested in helping (TATF)?
Dear Belmo:
1/98 T.O.N. (Tree Owner News) indicated teak thinning would yield no lumber.
11/98 TON repeated that there would be no value.
Summer '98 TON--lumber would have little or no value, but that TATF would try to create value thru startup of Raleo.
Fall 2000 TON indiced value would not be known until Raleo develops produtcts and markets.
Summer 2001 TON indicated plans for Raleo were proceeding.
Summer 2002 TON wrote about progress in defining Raleo's market.
Fall 2002 TON wrote about progress in developing Raleo, including photographs of prototypes.
Summer 2003 TON wrote about very first production and sales.
Fall 2004 TON wrote about Raleo's young growth.
Summer 2007 TON apologized for not writing in the interim and wrote about Raleo having moved into a 40,000 square foot production facility.
Summer 2007 TON wrote extensively about the fact that young tropical hardwoods from early thinnings have little or no value and gave a complete history of the accumulation of their knowledge on that issue from the beginning of Tropical American Tree Farms.
Spring 2009 TON wrote about Raleo's progress and added that Raelo's growth was be substantially affected by the economy to the point that Raleo's present utilization and distributions from that utilization had slowed to a trickle and for that reason they were going to stop planting trees for the public and concentrate all their efforts on developing other higher-volume uses for the young lumber from early thinnings.
It also wrote that some of the lumber from 13-year thinning was of a quality that it could go directly into the market, but that they were not going to open the 13-year logs until they had developed the uses for the less-desirable 13-year wood. They added that they anticipated that the 17-year harvest would produce more market-quality wood.
Spring '09 TON reported they were behind in thinnings and reports, but were working to bring all up to date.
Dear fawt:
We would be interested to know your "facts" about, specifically, which of our plantings "do not add up?"
We have provided Background Facts, Thinning Facts, and Proceeds/Distribution Facts. These indicate, among other things--for Teak, naming the 5 farms and enumerating 18 fields; on native species, naming the 3 farms and enumerating 9 fields.
Further, we have specified Teak planted '93-'96, and specified the 9 native species and their planting years.
If you would be so kind as to provide a listing on your "10,000 units," as to year planted, species, and farm, I will be happy to provide additional information about our holdings.
Are you a tree owner interested in helping to provide a major positive impetus to TATF/TAH/Raleo'--without purchasing additional trees?
Have you inspected your trees in C.R.?
Dear MattyO:
The thinning schedule was not followed to the letter as explained in many of the past (TON)Tree Owner News--part of why Beto, the previous farm manager, was asked to retire.
We had authorized early on that some of our Teak could be thinned even sooner than year 7; this was to check the effect on remaining Teak growth rates.
Although we have not received the detailed thinning reports to verify, virtually all our Teak at some point had a combined yr.10thin/yr.13harvest; all are now "caught up" as of last dry season.
We expect these thinning reports, as noted in the Spring '09 TON, yet this calendar year.
I believe the these last harvested logs have not been opened up, but are awaiting specific usages so the correct grades/dimensions can be extracted.
So we are not expecting a detailed accounting of board feet, only "approximations;" and an accounting of tree % harvested and # remaining.
TATF has not sent out thinning reports, at least to us, except as noted earlier in:
5/01
8/04
11/06
Please let me know if the above is not clear.
Dear Matty0:
I am sorry my original post was not understood.
At present, on Teak trees, we own ONLY '93-'96 planted; no '99 planted.
100% of our Teak Tree thinning is up to date.
22.2% of our native species have been thinned (2 of 9 species).
To date, 97.6% of ALL OF OUR TREES have been thinned at least once.
As we do not have thinning going on every year; therefore, we do not expect thinning reports each and every year.
I hasten to point out on current seed-Teak's PROJECTED NET PROFIT PER HARVEST:
60% of projected net profits are for 25th year (final) harvest.
Over 91% of projected net profits are for the last 3 harvests
(yrs. 17, 21, 25).
Dear Planb:
Are you a tree owner genuinely interested in helping?
Dear planb:
Sorry if that was not clear in my previous post.
Yes, of course!
Dear planb: Words have meaning--not "giving advice"
Since 8/95, as excellent/very-good opportunities arise, we have been purchasing from TATF as when we bought '93 Teak Trees--teak already 2+ years old!
These many purchases have, I trust, helped TATF/TAH/Raleo' capitalize and build their businesses.
My hub post of mostly facts included my belief in potentially 1 of 2 suggested actions to those now "genuinely interested in receiving your thinning proceeds sooner."
And it said nothing about "older" trees that had been offered on the web site.
TATF web site has teak clones with a much earlier harvest potential and higher yield (than seed planted), as well as oil producing trees. Probably a good idea to consult forestry experts and financial advisors to see if right for you.
Are you a tree owner interested in now helping?
CONTINUED FROM THE BELOW FUBAR, SNAFU:
PROCEEDS/DISTRIBUTION FACTS
On almost all out Teak Trees, we had elected early on to use the projected proceeds as credits to purchase additional Teak Trees. For the balance, we have received proceeds from the first thinnings and some of the second combined thin/harvests.
We expect to receive additional proceeds this '09 calendar year from the successful sale of value-added products from TATF/TAH/Raleo' from the younger and/or less desirable lumber.
In 2010/11 we expect proceeds from sale of some of the best lumber from both the 17-year-Teak and native species' harvests.
CONFIDENTIALITY
Just as TATF,TAH, & Raleo' are private businesses and need to protect your individual information and their own specific conpetitive business information, I choose to not disclose neither quanties of our specific holdings nor our specific, personal financial (distribution) information.
CALL TO ACTION
The following suggested actions, I believe, would be very helpful in providing a major positive impetus to TATF/TAH/Raleo':
1. Some of the posts on this Investors Hub are non-factual comments and apparent un-truths; at best, very un-helpful, probably detrimental to the businesses and tree owners' long term interests.
It would be much morre productive to try to help.
2. If you are genuinely interested in receiving your thinning proceeds sooner, help re-capitalize ( as noted in the Spring '09 Tree Owner News) TATF/TAH production operations; purchase trees now offered on the TATF web site to further expedite making and selling their new products and top-quality lumber.
Before purchase (for your own piece of mind), ask for specific information about tree location, height, DBH, projected harvest schedule, and current/future marketability of species' lumber. Better yet, if possible, visit the farms and San Jose on a (tax deductable) combined vacation/inspection trip.
TATF holdings information FACTS and figures with specifics
BACKGROUND FACTS
Our family has been tree owners with Tropical American Tree Farms for 14 years. We own thousands of '93-'96 Teak Trees in 18 different fields on these farms:
Campo Real
Santo Domingo
Rio Blanco
el Capital
la Esperanza
In addition, we own the following native species in 9 fields on Campo Real, Santo Domingo, and Rio Blanco farms:
'93 Idigbo (termanalia)*
'93 Peroba Rosa (manglilio)
'94 Goncalo Alves (ron ron)
'94 Brazilian Cherry (guapinol)
'94 Nargusta (amarillon)*
'95 Cocobolo (cocobolo)
'95 Trebol (cristobol)
'95 Lapacho (ipe)
'97 Purple Heart (violet wood)
In addition to my having made a number of fishing/vacation trips to both coasts of Costa Rica over the years, our family made a wonderful Spring Break trip to Quepos to inspect our trees on the farms where we met Sherry, Beto, and Steve.
THINNING FACTS
To date, we have received specific, written thinning reports dated the following:
5/16/01
8/25/04
11/28/06
Further, we expect to receive another set of thinning reports yet this calendar year. On Teak, 100% of our Teak Trees are up-to-date and have been thinned or combined thinned/harvested at least twice.
On our native species, 22.2% (as noted with * above) have received their first thinning.
The other 7 species are very shade tolerant and we are following Hans Tanner's recommendations on thinning to maximize our total IRR. Since 3/06 Hans has managed the TATF farms and plantation operations. He is an excellent forestry engineer and a very experienced plantation manager. He trained in top Swiss forestry schools, and has 8 years of forestry experience in Europe followed by 17 years managing tropical and plantation operations in Latin America before joining TATF.
BOTTOM LINE: To date, 97.6% of all our trees have been thinned at least once.
PROCEEDS/DISTRIBUTION FACTS: