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Maybe s4v event cant happen until NSM cash/shares election on the 26th because final WMIH shares count wont be known until then. Thus, s4v cant happen until after the 26th since you cant do a proper valuation of s4v exchange for the old estate assets without knowing what the final shares count is going to be. Any thoughts?
RD, you are right. That looks suspiciously coincidental!
AZ, I guess this is the weekend. I hope you get paid on Monday. Please keep the board posted. Thanks again.
LG, does it really matter? You cant change the distribution percentages anymore. It is going to be what it is. Why dont we all focus on getting that first dollar out of safe harbor. I think we are all speculating billions of dollars in safe harbor. Why worry about how rich you are going to be at this time? Lets just worry about getting paid first. The percentages will be what it will be. Lets just make sure we can retrieve the full amount behind safe harbor.
AZ, when is the nominal dividend distribution date for the class 17 notes that you own. You mentioned before that it is sometime in the middle of July. Is it a known fixed date nominally or does it vary?
Any payment from non FDIC-R funds would prove safe harbored assets. I'm not worried about the amount. I just want proof of life for safe harbored assets.
mordicai, you are right. That is why I'm looking forward to the class 17 WMB notes payment this month. payment to class 17 would prove these safe harbored assets that were abandoned by the estate but not the debtor.
I dont think s4v could happen without prior notice to NSM cash/WMIH election. Without prior notice I'm afraid we'll have to wait a few months after merger for s4v.
Exactly. Thats why I originally thought s4v cannot happen until after merger and the statute of limitation runs out for disclosure requirements.
The only other possibility that I can forsee for a simultaneous s4v/merger happening closely is that the combined total valuation after s4v exchange does not exceed $1.40 share
different pot of money. Class 16 to be paid of by what WMILT currently has. Class 17 are guranteed by securities held in safe harbor.
Because, we are the not the ones having to make the decision of accepting cash or WMIH shares for the merger.
Lodas, if NSM management knew about s4v in advance, they have a fiduciary obligation to inform NSM shareholder of possibility of merged wmih stock being worth more than $1.40. That way, NSM stockholders can make an informed decision on whether to accept cash or WMIH shares for the merger.
I see your point on the NOLs and I hope you are right as I also own a sizable stake in WMIH. I hope the big boys have a disclosure loophole up their sleeves...hence Wand and Eclipse. One big magic show
I'm not an expert on Sec regulations but common sense tells me this would require advance notification before NSM shareholders make an election for cash.
The other possibility is that the s4v exchange is for a small leftover portfolio that would not significantly change the combined post s4v entity valuation much higher than $1.40. That woyld be the only way they might be able to bypass disclosure requirements to NSM shareholders before their cash election.
LG, I'm talking about the NSM shareholders that elected the cash option. They would not be able to participate in the increased valuation of the merged WMIH share price. They would be crying foul "Why didnt you tell us about this gold mine before you asked us to decide on the cash option!!"
LG, I dont think the s4v can happen simultaneously with the closing of the merger. Dont you think NSM shareholders who elected cash option would have been owed a notice of something like s4v event with old WMI estate that could potentially increase the value of the merged company significantly? In that case NSM sharholders may have wanted a higher cash election option.
So I would think any s4v event happening at the last minute to coincide with the merger would create many legal hurdles with the lack of disclosure to NSM shareholders.
My near term expectation right now is to see distribution to class 17 wmb notes. If that distribution happens this month then we'll have our absolute proof of safe harbor asset returns....and I would expect escrow payments before end of the year.
I'm not saying that I am 100% sure who is right. I'm just puzzled why WMILT cannot simply answer a hypothetical question whether 75/25 distribution also applies to a "hypothetical" safe harbor assets. I don't understand why any of us should have to argue on this matter. We are not asking WMILT to confirm whether such assets exist. They should be able to confirm the distribution mechanism for "hypothetical" safe harbor assets.
Can someone email WMILT to answer the hypothetical question on the 75/25 split? This can be easily resolved by getting an official email response from WMILT whether or not the 75/25 split includes any hypothetical assets that would have been legally separated during the bankruptcy through safe harbor.
AZ, wouldnt payment of class 17 notes also indicate release of FDIC 360.6 safe harbored assets? So any payment of those notes would give us the undeniable solid proof of safe harbored assets. So potentially, if class 17 gets paid mid July, then would you say there is a string possibility of escrow payment on August 1st or is November 1st more likely?
AZ, do you know if there will be a required notification of payment for the class 17 WMB notes? I recall that you own a few of these. Do you know if there is an advance notification you should be receiving if the July 13th payment is a go? Thanks in advance, LP
I wish someone could ask at the sharholder meeting if the proceeds from these senior notes will be used to pay off the $1.7 billion bridge loan for the "eclipse purchase". They are raising the same amount to imply that Eclipse is NSM.
This is what is bothering me lately. Some entity is holding these assets -- definitely not JPM. I assume they can hold these under safe harbor rules. So its really bothering me that they can continually hold without any disclosure even though the assets have been clearly liquidated.
I have been researching on safe harbor rules but I havent come across any rules regarding time limits or liquidation events that would trigger disclosure requirements.
This vagueness leaves too much room for insiders to play shinanigans. Are we sure we are in the same boat as Mike Willingham or Tepper in terms of payout timing?
Do we need to organize class action lawsuit to force disclosure of safe harbor assets?
BD, have you thought of how DB as trustee for the safe harbored MBS have already been discharged through the probate court and have announced payments made and yet we havent heard anything from WMILT with regards to the subs potentially receiving some of these payments.
My concern is do we as shareholders need to sue the estate to disclose these safe harbored asset returns? Is it possible that the safe harbored assets can be indifinitely hidden without any sort of disclosure time limit requirements?
Hmm..no WMIH 10q filing until merger closes? I guess we'll never find out what happened to the assets with the WMIIC closeout. Interesting is it not?
Arent we suppose to see a 10q from WMILT today also?
Let's entertain the position that WMIH was able to obtain $2.75B loan secured with assets and business value of NSM that it is about to purchase.
This proposed business model is the same thing as saying NSM will obtain $2.75B loan to do a share buyback from its shareholders.
Let's see...
NSM current market cap at the buyout price is $1.8B. It sits at a PE of 60. It earned $30 million last year. So that means it'll take about 50 to 100 years with growth to earn $6B so that it can use WMIH NOLs so that it can save $1.4B.
I would really love to meet the underwriters of this $2.75B loan to approve a billion dollar mortgage loan for me.
Eclipse is not likely NSM. There is still a very good chance that Eclipse is old Wamu safe harbored assets.
Are we all sure that the profits from the safe harbored MBS certs will return to escrow automatically? I'm confident that the money is there but I'm not 100% sure that it will automatically return to escrow markers. Hochberg did tell the judge that "we can go after those assets later".
Do escrow holders need to file some sort of claim with the court?
LG, I agree. This is a lot of smoke. Theres got to be a fire close by.
Yeah, that's another mystery. but I'm refering to the $2.7B they got for Wand to purchase Eclipse..again, a shell with no business, being able to borrow $3.3B total to purchase a company and having most of that cash buyout the exisiting sharholders of that saif company.
Its like me maxing out my credit cards to buy a business...Its the most ludicrous business decision..thats why I'm confident its not true.
Nobody is going to lend $2.7B to WMiH to buy NSM so that it can save about $1.5B in taxes over 10 years.
Additionally, from the perspective of NSM, WMIH borrowing $2.7B to buy them, and the combined company using that cash to buyout most 2/3 of NSM shareholders in cash, is the equivalent of NSM borrowing the $2.7B to do a stock buyback. Its the most ludicrous business decision...which is why it cannot be true.
The $2.7B must be used to buy Eclipse, which is not NSM...its got to be the leftover loans coming out of safe harbor for the old estate. This is the only logical business transactiin that makes sense.
Wand is a sub of WMIH, that buys Eclipse (safe harbored escrow assets), then merges with NSM... and then the merged entity is acquired by WMIH.
Just imo...
Where is FDIC with settling the Libor lawsuits with JPM? Isn't that the last thing they need to do before closing the receivership? Anyone keeping track of it?
100% agree. Also, isnt it a little suspicious that there has been no depositions made aftee all these years? If the employees believe they really are going to be screwed, I would thinj they would push for depositions by now....hmm somehow, I have a feeling that they know the timing of when this will settle. They know that their claims are being used to keep Piers from being paid off so that estate can delay addressing the safe harbored assets...until now. God, I really hope May 1st payment will finally pay off Piers and we can finally see whats behind the curtain for escrow and WMIH!
This will all be settled out of court. There will be no depositions. I just wanted to look at the dates again. Is it just coincindental that the judge ordered no depositions taken at least before July 24, 2018??... and we know that WMIH-NSM merger is suppose to close by end of 2nd quarter.
Keepung my fingers crossed and hoping PIERs are paid off on May 1st :)
Thanks for the link!
When is the next employees claims court date? Does anyone know? TIA
Justice, IMO, JPM only got the principle of the loans plus 1.8% interest ( which it owes to the deposit base). The rest of the 2.9% interest margin of the loan portfolio belonged to the estate in the form of securitized ABS. 2.9% margin on $300 billion portfolio after 10 years is like $80 billion...IMO, this is the pot of gold protected by safe harbor for the escrow holders...
Remember, the purpose of safe harbor is not to maximize profits for the estate. The main purpose of safe harbor is to protect the portfolio from untimely liquidation due to creditor demands in bankruptcy that could threaten the portfolio solvency against the liability it owes to the deposit base. The main purpose of safe harbor is to make sure FDIC protects the deposit base by making sure the portfolio runs its course and makes enough money to pay back deposit base.
However, a big side benefit for wamu escrow holders, is that we get the 2.9% interest profit margin also, as the portfolio slowly pays back principle plus 1.8% interest to the deposit base in safe harbor.
By protecting the deposit base, FDIC inadvertently protected the equity interest in the portfolio..the 2.9% interest profit margin that comes back to us in the form of securitized MBS.
Thanks LG. Yeah, I've already seen this one. It's the one that lead me to believe that Eclipse is not NSM because it clearly states that Wand is "acquiring" Eclipse and the NSM filing states that Wand is "merging" into NSM.
I was hoping Cura actually found something clearly showing that Wand acquisition of Eclipse is suppose to close by March 31st. Such a link would be 100% proof that Eclipse is not NSM.
cura, do you have a link to the March 31st as the closing date for Eclipse acquisition by Wand? The link will clearly prove that Eclipse is not NSM.
Like I was saying earlier a few weeks ago, the filing clearly stated that Wand was "acquiring" Eclipse and "merging" into NSM. Obviously, if March 31st is the closing date for Eclipse acquisition, it is clear proof that Eclipse is not NSM.
IMO, this makes sense as NSM management would not have reasonably agreed to be merged with a shell company with "future" promises of of some "hidden" WMILT safe harbor assets. NSM management would only be able to responsibly agree to WMIH merger only if it already had the assets before the close of merger. So I would think Wand "acquisition" of Eclipse (hopefully Eclipse = safe harbored assets) must happen before summer when WMIH/NSM merger closes.
Has anyone tried contacting WMIH directly to ask if Eclipse is NSM? Have them confirm or deny it. They've already disclosed NSM is the target merger so why can't they confirm if Eclipse is NSM?
Let them say no comment :)
If AZ is right, the waterfall only applies to assets under LT. The safe harbored assets are bankruptcy remote so they may not need to follow waterfall priority.
Did Kerry Killinger own a sizable shares of Wamu after the take down in 2008? or did he liquidate all after he got kicked out earlier?
Does anyone know? I have a feeling that he might be in the background orchestrating things all these years. The man literally build Wamu to its size so I must assume it is a little personal for him in the way it was taken down by the feds.