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I quite agree with you for a stock in this price range the free trading float appears to be low.
I dont understand the surprise at the dropping share price, what else would one expect with a company with limited cash trying to survive until investors have a more compelling reason to buy stock such as meeting key milestones, or generating greater credibility they will be met. Even then hard to market such companies these days.
Just read an article that out of 1600 junior mining companies on vancouver exchange, 20% are facing de-listing this year. One company I had shares in did 1 for 10 reverse last year, and just did another 1 for 10 just to raise money to keep their filings current.
Scam is a harsh word, just because dropping share price doesnt mean its a scam. And since company doesnt have any money what use is a legal lawsuit ? However if it is a "scam" what is specific proof that it is ?
It seems key is company at some point properly capitalizing on control of a mill, and nearby local mines that can provide mill feed. Can management implement this plan, can they finance it,can they market story properly, can they get DTC chill off the stock ? IMO these are questions that will determine whether this speculaton wil pay off- not short term price declines.
I think next 10q will be important to provide shareholders better sense of what is going on.Company really needs to put out an update, why with march 6 date now passed no update ?
I guess a qustion is if it is not convertible note holders and vendors just selling to raise cash, but market makers " holding it down", what is opinion of why market makers "hold it down" - is it from lack of belief in prospects of company, or knowledge that there are a lot more shares to sell ?
Hope for an update form the company soon.
Fair enough criticism as I have repeated myself. I re-read your post 61621, guess I just have not understood clearly where it states that bond wil be returned to company when work finished as this is generally not what I have seen in the past. But if correct that is great news and certainly addresses the concerns I have concerning short term financing.
With all due respect you are responding partly to what soemone else has written.
1. Scam- If you read my prior post I pointed out that I am not calling this a scam and frankly I think one has to be very careful about throwing out such words as it is very unfair to accuse someone or a company of being a scam without firm proof of the same.
2. Management Ability- one could take a hard line and say management that misses projectons, does a 5000 to 1 reverse split, and then suffers another major drop in share price,is clearly not meeting objectives. However again in my posts I have pointed out (a)it has been a terrible funding environment for junior mining stocks the past year (b) that it is quite normal price pressure on this stock due to market and - in my opinion- porr marketing strategy.
3. Poor Marketing Strategy- Well we each have our opinions, please show me how current marketing strategy and implementation is working. All I suggest is with great assets company has, control of the mill + ability to do deals with nearby mines , I think company should be doing better.
4. President seems to have years of experience in industry, doesnt mean he has ability to determine marketing strategy- in fact more technical experience guy has in this sector often hard for such fellows to shift gears to marketing.
5. Estimates- Sorry the company itself says they have the data otherwise how could they make economic analysis ? Let's say I am wrong that as you say it is marketing startegy not to release information, is it working ?
6. Mill- As I read it there is a first and a second lien against the mill, not the end of the world but if I am incorrect in reading last 10k etc, then my apology. So you are saying it is free and clear ?
I guess I have a question for your, why is it if someone asks some questions it brings forth such a response ? Can you name one fabrication I have made ? We all want company to do well, and doesnt really bother me as the current weak share price I expected it, and worse- I am more interested in the eventual result.
I had concerns that they hadnt indicated where continued funding was coming in,but as someone posted it appears they had some ability to draw on more convertibles form prior arrangements,if correct certainly that is good news that they are able to bring in cash during this period.
Could you point me to where it states they will be recovering the $500k, it is a bit unusual a company recovers a reclamation bond when going into production, usually the total amount of reclamation bond ( overall) goes up not down. If you are correct this certainly is good news.
P.S. Operating costs- in addition to costs to maintain reporting status, the company will need some funding to get mill operational. just imagine if they get their permit, and they have a crew of 5 guys. So if including payroll taxes , etc etc each perosn averages $3,500 cost to company, that would be $17,500 a month, times at least 2 months, they need $35,000 , then add utilities, supplies, and any specialised consultants, and they will be needing to continually monitoring recovery rates meaning costs for assays , etc etc etc. So optimistically let us say they need $75,000 to $125,000 to start the mill- and they need some time to work out any bugs before it starts producing revenue.
All I am saying is that realistically company needs to raise money to implement its plan, and in advance of receiving positive cash flow- not unlike any business, and this assuming ( which I think is big assumption) little capital needed to meet [ermit conditions. Then there will be ongoing inspection issues on safety and environmental matters.
I am just giving company benefit of the doubt, and due to lack of information and transparency, try to ball park cash requirements and what resulting share count will be.
This doesnt include cash necessary to re-negotiate property deals and certainly doesnt include exploration costs in the future
I agree having the permit on hand will be an obvious plus, but they still need to craft their story and deliver the story to build credibility and demand, this is on-going necessity for any public company. I simply do not believe in the "build a better mousetrap" theory in the current markets, especially with a company that has a DTC chill and the 5000 to 1 reverse split.
I am not sure if it is CFO's inexperience in marketing junior mining stocks, or lack of funding to update more completely their marketing material, but people I have mentioned stock to aks the same basic questions - how much will it take to get mill operational, what are general terms of orders, why company avoids releasing key information,why during this critical time no informaton on how company being financed, and also why press releases claiming 200 milion + value without any idea of net value of such "resources" net of CAPEX and extraction costs.
This is a solvable problem, and just my opinion but getting the permit is just one hurdle of many- but if they keep missing their own projections that obviously creates an image problem.
Hi Les,
Part of the $400,000 is related to maintaining status as operating company, and these expenses do not disappear. Those epenses I will estimate, conservatively at $50,000 to $100,000 per year. Legal,accounting, edgar, and now XBRL requirements are ongoing and generally cannot be paid in shares. re-opening the mill requires working capital- initial salaries, materials and supplies, and to deal with timing issues on when funds received from sales of processed material, plus remaining costs to meet permit. Not all contractors and specialists will receive shares, especially when they encounter the difficulties of finding broker to take shares with a DTC chill.Frankly it defies common sense IMO to imagine they will need less money in a year they project to be re-opening a mill, and that doesnt count any cash necessary to re-negotiate property deals etc they have annoucned, and unforeseen delays.
As far as rising share county, a fair portion of this must be convertible notes being converted, plus some issuance of shares for servcies etc.Since they havent filed 8k on new financings,but some have indictaed they believe ther eis some credit line in place, perhaps or some reason any such financing company feels doesnt have to be announced on 8k.
As far as share price I see it staying under pressure until the company come sout with a more comprhensive and explanatory path forward of how they will meet objectives, even if there are delays, and has better investor relations, just my opinion of coruse.
If anyone has access to 144 filings that will probably show where shares are coming from, they may not show the amount of convertible shares hitting the market.
I am unsure why anyone would be surprised at price dropping if shares are issued for services and convertible notes being satisfied through share issuances at a discount, and finally investor relations that misses the boat on release key infromation and believable timetables to the public. For those surprised the price is dropping considering key attributes to this stock, then that leads back to quality and effectiveness of their IR in my opinion.
Fact sheet is dated February and while still avoids key questions, it is an update and management still holding to its timetable so either they are very sure of their projections, or fail to see after a 5000 to 1 reverse split importance of absolutely meeting projections to build credibility.Pretty gutsy not using book assets values but some sort of market estimate, and continuing to throw out values of metals in the ground without extraction costs applied or capital required.
However I questioned lack of updated timetables and while they still avoid key basic questions, it is to their credit that the fact sheet is dated February and they do state when they will be in production, so now we wil lsee.
But I will say with CFO having a second on the mill and voting control via preferred shares, what happens if he misses the boat again on these projections ? Will he then relinquish voting control and his second and appoint new management, putting shareholders first as a fidicuiary obligation as an officer of the company ? What is everyones opinion- should there be a point past which if no success he should step down ? Is that Octoebr this year ? January next year ? Is CFO's moral obligation to himself or the shareholders ?
I read various questions etc, and it just seems 90% of all questions raised about this stock can be answered by the company- I just find it frustrating this quiet time, I just dont feel this marketing strategy is working.
Thanks for your response I guess though I keep coming back that I absolutely cannot imagine they would need LESS money this year than last considering they are still projecting the mill to be operating bu August, so at least $400,000 in cash needed this fiscal year seems a minimum requirement for this company.
I hazard a guess working capital for mill to re-open cant be less than $100,000 : one needs a crew, mill manager, material and supplies, etc etc.
I had forecast company would end up between 150 and 200 million shares oustanding this year, based on the quarterly cash requirements shown on last 10q, with assumption cash requirements would not decrease in a year that the mill is projected to re-open, and that at best it would take a few months before mill would generate positive cash flow.
If I take current figure of 101 million, a 50% discount to a cash price of $.01, $105,000 cash required per quarter, that would be an additional 63 million shares,or total outstanding of 164 million within 3 quarters.
The 10q refers to a total convertible note funding of $582,000, and while I find it a bit confusing to see what is left, if we take the unamortized balance of $236,022 as of November 30, that leaves a difference of $345,97l.Furthermore if I understand their filings, they do not file an 8k whenever shares are converted.That figure of $345,971 roughly compares
to $105,000 (cash received last quarter) times 3= $315,000.
Since I dont believe they can operate with no cash, and issuance of shares for services cant cover all vendors, the only conclusion I come to is the company is still drawing funds from the convertibles. Convertibles have a six month hold, so I guess a race to get mill up and running !However I must admit I didnt realize they may have had that much funds left on prior convertible note agreements, if I understand the last 10q.
I guess my question is do people think that $315,000 for the next three quarters enough to meet property obligations, operating expenses, and enough to get mill up and running generating positive cash flow ?
I would be conservative and up my forecast on outstanding shares to be reached this year from 150 to 200, to now 175 to 225 million shares. What is your opinion, is this too high or low a forecast ?
does anyone have access to information about 144 filings ? this would be useful to see how many shares have been issued for convertibles, and for shares for servcies what is the trend ?
In response :
1. Yes I still consider 2 months "new", and as severalpeople have posted I have often raised questions that people have dealt with long ago.If I am a slow learner fine, if company doesnt present information clearly that is another matter.
2.Yes I have visited website and looked at fact sheet ( which I thought very well done by the way).
3. Laughable that re-opening eight months away and we do not know how company is currently financed, will meet pressing property/mill payments, will get permit on time etc etc ?
4.Doubt Creation- My intent is to learn more about situation, and for what it is worth my opinion stock could do a lot better if key fundamental concerns are met. What is wrong with asking questions ? Why is it supporters apparently gets on their nerves ?
I wish stock to go up as much as anyone else, and they have a great asset in control of the mill. I would think fairly normal after a 5000 to 1 reverse split there are concerns. This stock could go through the roof is they are successful, whether in 2013 or 2014 - there is nothing wrong as an investor asking questions, or pointing out one's opinion.
I do not know if they will meet September start date, I point out so much has to occur successfully it is hard to understand it is probable. I am not creating doubt about eventual re-opening, quite the opposite I am cutting management a lot of slack that I would be just as happy with 2014 as 2013.Yea I might be kind of slow for thinking company may not have the cash to meet the permit conditions.
Maybe I dont understand this board, I have learnt a lot from the different posts and points of view, isnt the purpose to share knowledge and questions to advance our understanding of this stock ?
Th re-opening of the Lucky Friday, plus he xpansion plans there, both bode well for this company in 2013 and the future. Price under $5 is a steal IMO.
Interesting. I am trying to be objective here.
1.Past results - so you admit that there is not one initiative CEO has gone into that has worked, so if numerous initiatives entered into and none worked, doesn't that imply lack of ability of CEO to select and implement initiatives ?
2. The "team" : What team are you talking about ? Clearly company is seriously deficient in financial reporting. Clearly no money to run so many multiple businesses they claim to have at once.Clearly no money for salaries. As far as I can see they do not even have money for press releases.
3. You havent answered how many years does one have to wait for results ? I went back to old posts and you are always saying this is a good company and stock. At what point do you say thorw in the towell ? In 1 month, 1 year , 10 years ?
Even if this HIP HOP a good idea (a) does CEO really have ability to implement a deal that shareholders will benefit from (b) claiming $5 million funding is just like previously claims- they never materialise, so obviously people develop little confidence in CEO. If CEO believes his own press releases, then he has shown an amazing inability to gauge probabilities of the types of deals he goes into.
No disrespect to the CEO, I am sure he has some abiities, but providing shareholder value doesnt seem to be one of them ! So even accepting your point of view how long do you feel CEO should have to show some evidence of even minimum success ?
Quite agree this is a speculation that could pay off very well if they surmount the numerous challenges. Again I return to their IR,stockholders make money when stock price goes up from increased demand pure and simple- if stock price going down means excess supply over demand. So IR is a key issue right now.
One doesnt know value a mining property by metal in the ground except by value of projected cash flow or established reserves- while at this price of gold the impression is these properties could be very valuable, company hasnt provided key data to even ball park the value. If their percentage recovery 80% on $100 million metal in the ground, then we need to know CAPX to go into production, working capital required, opertaing costs per ton etc. This is very basic stuff which their own press release claims or implies they have this information.
No problem, I did not state was a scam nor would I unless there was clear proof it was instead of poor management in poor circumstances.I am new to this company though, so perhaps there is history I am not considering.One way or another IMO company should update where it is at and where it projects things to be- if they are not going to meet the September projection for re-opening sooner they inform the market the better. If they keep to that projection, then why not let the market know- the reasons I have seen dont hold water (a) they dont want to release forward statements- not true they already have (b)marketing strategy to hold off on news- clearly not working, and as a public company they are supposed to release material information in any case.
Hopefully a new PR or next 10q will answer many quetsions.
It would seem the past convertibles and shares for services account for some of selling, and if there is a line I would guess it involves some convertibe feature. I admit I simply do not understand what sort if "line" this is, guess if someone else can explain great otherwise the next 10q.
Fair enough. While I dont understand their filings to indicate they are drawing on that line of credit, nor do I think they wil recover much of the bond, I guess I could be wrong that they are drawing on that "line" somehow during this period.
I dont believe I have ever called this company a scam, as clearly they have invested a lot of time and have slogged their way through the permitting process etc- hardly the earmarks of a scam. I was just asking for opinions on their compensation.
Actually whether $.005 or $.015 I think the same, ie. real return will come from a clear path towards going into production at a profit- combined with strong gold price and decent IR- then that is when I believe there is chance of a very good speculative return. In the meantime I just try to understand the stock and the company better.
Can you provide 1 initiative that has resulted in sales or positive cash flow the last three years ? Why is it that you and other supporters give us one reason why you are positive about the stock ? Doe sthe CEO have any sense of responsibiity for shape company is in ?
Well if management can attend the Hard Assets conference they must have access to some funds, did they have booth there ? And certainly means they can afford a press release. I have no idea why they wouldn't put out a corporate udpate seeing what has happened to stock last few months, and all the questions that are unaswered. People can be stubborn and not be open to new ways of thinking, so maybe they also believe the better mousetrap theory that they will get a permit and that will solve stock price problem.
Doesnt surprise me stock price is down and that it could go lower, more important where can it go IMO in the next 6 to 18 monthhs, and how they will survive in the short run. It is very worrisome there is no announcement of any sort of financing right now, as they simply cannot maintain a public reporting company gearing up for producton on $5,000.
Good sign the recent annual report filed that company is attempting a turnaround this year. This will be interesting specultaive play, now for some more news !!
Kazorchian,
I would appreciate your answer/opinion on two questions :
1.With all due respect can you name 1 initiative of BTDG the last three years that has resulted in positive cash flow or even revenue ? Why is it supporters of this stock never provide anything positive the last three years ?
2. In your opinion how many years is it reasonable for investprs to wait for CEO to achieve something positive ?
I quite agree currently stock has a very low float for a stock at this price range. Question is how many more shares need to be issued to get to production on a profitable basis.
Any company needs good IR to generate further interest and buying in the stock, especially penny stocks not followed by analysts etc. One of reasons Canadian penny mining stocks have a better time financing is the number of analysts following penny mining stocks, and from major Canadian brokerage hosues.
As far as doubts and questions, certainly looking at this board certainly many questions investors have could easily be dealt with by the company.
I fail to see why it is laughable the greater interest in the stock would not benefit the company and the shareholders.
About the CFO and other website issue. I must admit CFO having such total control normally not a good sign as it means even with poor performance he would remain. The other website raises question about CFO pay, which I had thought was just reflected on the Form 4 filed last year. Is there some issue with how much CFO paid ? I cant access 144 reports which would be helpful in knowing who is selling shares ( does anyone have 144 information ?). Is s8 stock/options required to be reporte don form 4 ?I know the other website doesnt seem too objective, but they do raise some serious issues.
There are various requirements usually reaching the total assets or net worth or profits is the biggest hurdle, and I believe one person controlling voting shares coudl be an issue. We are a long way from making a move up. Logical move would be to Canada but with share prices and issuances and past press releases this might be problematic.If I recall Amex was $4 million in assets or net worth.
Quite appreciate your comments, and yes seems a lot is based on hope. I guess I am in the middle, I think the company has control of a significant asset, but the challenges do seem enormous.It is interesting those that are supporters of the stock really do believe there is a major turnaround coming, while detractors point out based on track record and limited information available, that the stock wil just go down and down again.I guess what else does one expect of a $.01 per share stock ? My two cents though is if they expect to succeed they should improve their IR so that there are less questions and doubts, and provide shareholders benchmarks to go forward with. I must admit though I agree with detractors CFO has gone overboard with voting control and having a second on the mill.
A question though about management, I wasnt around so I cant answer but what is your opinion about management of company- should they have been held responsible for such a reverse, or was it due to circumstances beyond their reasonable ability to control ?
I am all for fee debate an discussion Why dont they post on this site ?
Interesting site, they seem on a vendetta They do raise some very strong questions on the timing of the mill re-opening- meeting permit condition in terms of costs and timetable. This shows at least to me the profund problem with IR in this company that they are projecting a September re-opening yet so many can quesion this projection.
As far as management of CFO I have not been around this board long enough to judge his overall competence- but there is the issu of whether the reverse last year was a result of bad maket conditions, faulty strategy and implementation, and whether CFO taking voting control and a second on the mill in itself a lack of confidence in the company. I dont presume I can answer these questons.
Making complaints about a company with no money I do not see that wil help investors recover any funds.
About setting stage for a reverse again, I just ask the question which to me seems logical, but to everyone else not- if factors that led to a reverse last year havent been addressed, then what precludes another reverse ? Seems consensus is that it wil not ocur again.
For the record I have no association with this company, I think their investor relations/communicaton is poor , and the fact so many questons can be raised shows that. On the other hand they do control a mill in an area with mines which if management can navigate this difficult year points to a potential turnaround.
How on earth could any rational person come to that conclusion ? Certainly while I think my comments have been objective, they have been very critical of teh IR strategy and implementation,and considering the string reaction against the scenario I projected of another reverse this year why would anyone think CFO would at this juncture would already be floating that idea ? I mentioned CFO apparently holding a second on the mill, woudl CFo wish to advertise that ?
I just cant understand why anyone would be surprised that the stock is under pressure and will continue to be under pressure, but those factors which make it a potentially excellent speculation havent changed. Unfortunately of course those who bought before the reverse split can only average down.
I dont know enough to judge whether they have handled the permit process as well as it could have been but it does seem to be progressing. Common sense looking at their financials and state of the market for junior mining equities should be enough for anyone to realize the tremendous challenges company faces. Obviously CFO has a tough job navigating with little cash to try to hold onto mill, get it operating, and re-negotiate mining deals.IMO they have serious problem with IR strategy.Common sense is a company with $5,000 in the bank will have difficuties !
Of course it wil have presure on the stock price these upcoming months !
I am not saying they managed situation well, I wasn't around this board last year so dont know everything that led up to reverse. But a company with $5,000 in the bank,DTC chill, issuing shares for expenses and convertible notes , to me is rather obvious they will have short term pressure- the reasons for the 5000 to 1 reverse certainly havent gone away.
What is their to file a complaint about ? The company did a reverse split because of necessity to try to improve its ability to finance itself, and ended November with $5,000 in the bank- if they are paying expenses in shares, convertible note holders converting at a discount to sell into any buying, and lack of concrete information as to future plans, why would it surprise anyone that the stock has a lot of downward pressure in the short term? Add to that a DTC chill and many brokers unable to accept certificates of low priced stocks, seems rather normal this stock will be under pressure- plus the lack of financing in the market for junior mining companies.
But the main speculative appeal to this stock-control of a mill, nearby mines, and advancing through the permit process- remains. As long as they keep progressing on the permit, and can keep control of the mill, it retains the same potential. Lower prices in market represent an opportunity to average down, if one bought the stock because of the apparent benefits arent those benefits still there ? . What else can they do differently ? While I feel their IR could be improved, even the best management has a challenging time with securing any type of financing these days.
IMO this is a medium to long term play as they get through very challenging times.
Company really needs to look at investor relations, it should be trading much higher. Great management and workers, high gold and silver prices, excellent projected production + potential for exploration success.