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I find it beneficial to hear all points of view Sarai,others here should try it imho.
Does that mean their programs did not exist? I think not. Was Clinton wrong in the late 90's for desiring to do what this administration has done in Iraq? Removal of Saddam and his tyranny over the people of Iraq. Time will tell and imo we did the correct thing although very difficult.
Such anger here by many,sad. Many here are prejudice of differing opinions that would bring a diversity of thoughts and discussions. Is this a one way board where you get attacked for discussion and personal viewpoints?
Sarai,I'm with us,and YOU!????
Info on Iraqi Nuclear programs from Iraqi scientist
JUDITH MILLER and JAMES RISEN
n Iraqi scientist who defected to the United States has publicly described for the first time the inner workings of Iraq's three-decade effort to build a nuclear bomb.
The scientist, Khidhir Abdul Abas Hamza, said that before he fled Iraq in 1994 he helped train a cadre of young scientists who, working with more senior scientists involved in other projects, would be capable of quickly resuming Iraq's atomic weapons program if the United Nations cuts back on its inspections and, ultimately, lifts economic sanctions.
Hamza is the highest-ranking scientist ever to defect from Baghdad, and his comments, in nearly 10 hours of interviews, come as a new confrontation is building over whether Baghdad has dismantled its chemical, nuclear and biological programs. Iraq has in recent days refused to cooperate further with U.N. weapons inspectors.
In the interviews, Hamza, 59, whose defection was an important intelligence coup for the United States that nearly slipped through American fingers because of the CIA's inattention, drew a chilling picture of life as an Iraqi scientist. He said his colleagues were lavishly rewarded for their successes and tortured by the secret police when they failed to deliver.
He said Iraq's nuclear weapons program was personally directed by Saddam Hussein, Iraq's leader, since its inception 27 years ago. It was abetted, he said, by a host of Western companies, which sold Iraq sophisticated equipment as they "winked and laughed" at patently false cover stories.
On the eve of the Persian Gulf War in 1991, Hamza said, Iraq had completed all the research and testing needed for an atomic weapon and was feverishly trying to make at least one crude bomb using uranium from civilian reactors. This effort, Hamza said, could have produced a bomb in a few months, but it was disrupted by the allied bombing campaign.
Only after the war did U.S. intelligence officials learn that they had grossly underestimated Iraq's nuclear program, which they had believed to be 10 years from producing a nuclear bomb. But Hamza's defection to the United States and his subsequent debriefing by the CIA brought fresh details to light, including these:
Iraq's peaceful nuclear power program, begun 30 years ago, was quickly turned into a cover for the secret bomb program, which went ahead even as Baghdad opened up its research reactors to Western inspection.
Israel's intensive campaign in the 1970s and '80s to stop Iraq from acquiring a bomb accomplished little. The 1981 Israeli bombing raid that destroyed Iraq's French-built Osirak nuclear reactor prompted Saddam to drop the pretense of a peaceful atomic effort and to go "full steam" on a covert program to build a bomb.
Iraq took advantage of America's open access to valuable scientific information. Hamza said that as a senior member of Iraq's nuclear program, he spent time at American university libraries studying the latest scientific journals and technical accounts of America's nuclear efforts.
Hamza, who intelligence officials said had been resettled here by the CIA, said he was speaking out now because he was frustrated that Saddam is still obstructing international inspections and deceiving the West. U.S. officials said they did not authorize or encourage Hamza to speak publicly, but they have confirmed many elements of his account.
Until now, Hamza's defection has been a closely guarded secret. A 1995 article in The Sunday Times of London and a 1997 book by Andrew and Leslie Cockburn included detailed accounts of his alleged kidnapping and assassination by secret Iraqi agents.
In fact, his escape from Iraq is a remarkable spy yarn that almost went awry. According to former and current intelligence officials, the CIA initially rebuffed Hamza's appeals to defect to the United States. He spent a year in Libya before the agency realized its mistake and agreed to resettle him and rescue his family from their home in downtown Baghdad.
Nuclear Ambitions:
He Helped Start Secret Arms Program
orn in southern Iraq into a family of Shiite Muslims, Hamza graduated from Baghdad University and then studied physics in the early 1960s at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Florida State University. After teaching briefly at Florida State and a small college in Georgia, Hamza returned home in 1970.
He became chairman of the physics department of Iraq's tiny nuclear research center outside Baghdad, and was approached a year later by two envoys from Saddam, who was then Iraq's vice president but already its de facto ruler.
He said they had asked him to help start a secret nuclear weapons program under the cover of an expanded civilian atomic energy program. Hamza said that though he had reservations about building a nuclear bomb, he was enticed by the promise of extra money and stature as well as the possibility that the civilian program might benefit.
A round of recent public hangings in Baghdad, he said, underscored the dangers of refusing such a request.
In 1972, Hamza submitted Iraq's first comprehensive plan for developing nuclear weapons to Saddam -- naming it the "Hussein plan." "We didn't know then that Saddam hated his father and his father's name," Hamza sheepishly recalled.
The plan was quickly adopted, although Saddam rejected Hamza's ambitious proposals for a separate nuclear city and lavish benefits for its scientists. The Iraqi leader, he said, "thought that a separate atomic city would be too tempting a target for Iraq's enemies."
At first, Hamza dealt with the leader through intermediaries. But in 1973, he finally met his boss -- a volcanic encounter. During a visit to the nuclear center, Saddam berated Hamza, his chief planner, in front of his colleagues for failing to use frames to display photographs of famous scientists on the office wall.
"The man was basically illiterate," Hamza said of Saddam. "But here he was complaining about our insufficient respect for great minds. I knew what he was doing: Saddam had to establish his authority by putting the man who had made the plan in his place."
Saddam tightened his grip over the growing nuclear program in 1974, Hamza said, secretly naming himself chairman of the Iraqi Atomic Energy Commission -- a fact that Iraq has denied to U.N. inspectors. He also began controlling every aspect of the scientists' lives, ordering them to divorce foreign wives and marry Iraqi women, while forcing them to report any contact with foreigners.
Scientists ignored such orders at their peril. In January 1980, Saddam had Iraq's most senior nuclear scientist, Jaafar D. Jaafar, jailed and tortured until he agreed to work on an enrichment program that would separate uranium particles and make bomb-grade fuel. "Jaafar was so badly beaten that he still jumps out of his chair at the slightest scare," Hamza said.
Help From Abroad:
Easy Purchases From Several Nations
amza said he found it surprisingly easy to negotiate nuclear cooperation agreements with the former Soviet Union, India, Brazil, France and others to buy nuclear technology that could be used for bombs under peaceful cover. "If you go with the money and some brains, it's easy to acquire the stuff," he said.
Among other things, Iraq bought a French reactor and an Italian fuel reprocessing facility, an IBM mainframe computer from the United States, and machine tools to make centrifuge components from the Swiss. In 1987 it almost bought for between $110 million and $120 million a complete foundry to forge uranium and other bomb-related components from Leybold and Degussa, two West German companies.
Hamza, who monitored the negotiations in Germany from a room next to the meeting room, said the companies had offered to supply not only the foundry but, for $200 million, a complete installation that they promised could be built within months.
He said Saddam rejected the tempting offer mainly because he feared that such a large deal involving highly sensitive equipment would have tipped off Western intelligence that Iraq was transferring its bomb effort to a new site, known as Al Atheer.
"But we were astonished to see that the companies were actually helping us find cover stories for some of the equipment we needed," Hamza recalled.
Dr. Jorg Streitferdt, in-house counsel for Degussa, AG, based in Frankfurt, Germany, which owned Leybold at the time, said the companies did sell some equipment that ended up in Iraq's nuclear program, and were later subjected to a series of investigations, including a criminal inquiry by Germany.
He noted that Degussa was exonerated on the charges of selling vacuum furnaces to Iraq, largely because West Germany did not require export licenses at that time for such sales. Though Degussa executives suspected that Iraq might use the equipment for military purposes given the ongoing Iran-Iraq war, he added, they did not know that Iraq wanted it for a nuclear program.
"DeGussa and Leybold did not know what the equipment was for," Streitferdt said. "The whole world did not know what Iraq was about to do. We have learned our lesson and now have very tough internal controls on our exports."
Years before Iraq's 1990 invasion of Kuwait turned the country into an international pariah, many of its nuclear-related purchases were made with the blessing of the International Atomic Energy Agency, the U.N. atomic energy monitors. The agency assumed that Iraq was amassing the technical know-how for a peaceful power program, and did little to investigate. The inspectors, Hamza said, never asked even basic questions, "like why an oil-rich country like ours wanted nuclear power?"
Hans Meyer, the spokesman for the IAEA, denied that the agency had ignored warning signs that Iraq was trying to build a bomb. "Our inspections were very tough," he said "but under the rules of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, we were only permitted to inspect the facilities that Iraq had declared."
Despite such easy purchases, Hamza said, the program was beset by almost constant setbacks -- the mysterious killings of senior Iraqi nuclear scientists traveling in Europe, corruption, technical blunders and vicious bureaucratic feuds among Iraq's scientists seeking to generate bomb-grade enriched uranium. But Saddam had an uncanny knack for turning such crises into opportunities, he said.
After Israel bombed Iraq's reactor in 1981, the Iraqi leader created the first completely independent, clandestine weapons program, most of which remained hidden from Western inspectors for nearly a decade. Liberated from having to march in lock step with its peaceful cover, the nuclear weapons program staff grew from 400 to 7,000, Hamza said. And its budget soared.
At a time when Iraq's bloody war with Iran was draining the country's resources, nuclear scientists were insulated from the war's economic ravages. The program was allotted as much as $150 million a month, Hamza said.
Incomplete Results:
Nuclear Scientists Beaten and Tortured
he Iraqi scientists were expected to produce results, and in one crucial aspect of the program, they had little to show. Despite years of effort, they had failed to produce the enriched uranium that is an essential component in an atomic weapon.
When Hussein Kamel, Saddam's ambitious son-in-law, took over the nuclear program in 1987, Hamza said he helped him unmask a team of scientists who were falsely claiming success in enriching uranium.
Hamza was immediately named Iraq's director of weapons programs. "I went to the palace" he said, and "emerged with a new car and the title of a director general."
He said Kamel had ordered him to find a nuclear bomb trigger while other scientists pursued at least five different methods of separating uranium to make bomb-grade fuel. Hamza said that he had purchased a trigger in Poland, which did not work well, but that other Iraqi scientists developed a workable trigger in Iraq.
U.S. intelligence officials knew little of the Iraqi effort, in part because the enrichment program relied on a technique abandoned by the United States after the World War II Manhattan Project some 40 years earlier. "They never put two and two together," Hamza said.
But the enrichment program was still slow to pay off, and Kamel grew restless. The inevitable result was the onset of beatings and torture for the scientists.
"Hussein Kamel used to send scientists who displeased him to the torture center in Al Taji," Hamza recounted. "You couldn't survive more than two weeks there." A director general of one Iraqi nuclear program was beaten so badly that "he couldn't come to work for a week."
Shortly before the 1991 Gulf War, Kamel started a crash program to develop a bomb. "Kamel was crazy, but he managed to produce in a month things that would normally take a year," Hamza said. "Fear works well."
In December 1990 after Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, Hamza said, he asked to retire from the program. But he was told that he could do so only if he agreed to stay on as a senior adviser and help train Iraq's new generation of bombmakers.
He left an important legacy. According to Hamza, the program had perfected two methods for enriching uranium, and each could have produced enough material to make a bomb in a year or two.
Hamza witnessed the intensive American and allied bombing campaign in the Persian Gulf War and was stunned at how little the Americans and their allies knew about Iraq's program. More than half of Iraq's major nuclear installations, most notably the sprawling Al Atheer complex, the program's busy new weapons center, were left largely untouched by the bombing raids.
Ultimately, Hamza's long-running bureaucratic feud with another leading bomb scientist, the terror of working inside the Iraqi police state and finally the killing of colleagues in the secret program persuaded him to flee.
The final straw came when the body of Adil Fayadh, one of Iraq's chief nuclear procurement officers, was found near Hamza's farm. "He had a farm next to mine," he said. "They killed him and put him in the ditch on his farm. It got me very worried. It had to be Iraqi intelligence. That night, about two dozen people came to my house, pale-faced and worried. They didn't know what was going to happen."
Hamza defected soon after, and he continues to anxiously follow the Iraqi nuclear program from afar. He insisted that Saddam remains determined to reconstitute the chemical, biological and nuclear programs in which he invested so much. "Without these props, he would lose power," he said.
Sox forget it, federal taxes was the discussion and they are applied equally around the country. If you don't want to engage me thats ok.
I do not believe the Bush Adm. knew the documents from the Niger gov't were forged. Nor have I seen any evidence to that fact,have you? You spend alot of time defending a Mass Murderer. Still a long time to go before all the evidence of WMD to be found, and IMO we did the correct thing in removing a Mass murdering tyrant.
For the second time we are talking about Federal tax rates and how they apply to wage earners. Again,Sox?What level of income "In your Opinion" would qualify as working poor?
Sox, international community well aware of Saddams attempts to obtain nuclear program, that is a fact. Did the forged documents you talk about originate in Niger?
Sox?What level of income "In your Opinion" would qualify as working poor?
Sarals describe "Behavior". Another point of view different than yours seems to be your inference.
Here is Vermonts criminal code re: Burglary,prison time very possible according to the laws on the State of Vermont,
§ 1201. Burglary.
(a) A person is guilty of burglary if he enters any building or structure knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, with the intent to commit a felony, petit larceny, simple assault or unlawful mischief. This provision shall not apply to a licensed or privileged entry, or to an entry that takes place while the premises are open to the public, unless the person, with the intent to commit a crime specified in this subsection, surreptitiously remains in the building or structure after the license or privilege expires or after the premises no longer are open to the public.
(b) As used in this section, the words "building," "structure," and "premises" shall, in addition to their common meanings, include and mean any portion of a building, structure or premises which differs from one or more other portions of such building, structure or premises with respect to license or privilege to enter, or to being open to the public.
(c) A person convicted of burglary into an occupied dwelling shall be imprisoned not more than 25 years or fined not more than $1,000.00, or both. Otherwise a person convicted of burglary shall be imprisoned not more than 15 years or fined not more than $1,000.00, or both.
Amended 1971, No. 199 (Adj. Sess.), § 15; 1981, No. 223 (Adj. Sess.), § 2.
Sox?What level of income "In your Opinion" would qualify as working poor?
Nice to know different viewpoints are not tolerated on this board by some, very childish.
Sox please show me where I have said this that you claim,"You have said that you never heard or believe that the documents from Niger were forged." You imo seem to claim the Bush Adm. had something to do with forged documents. I believe the Niger gov't forged the documents correct?
Sox?What level of income "In your Opinion" would qualify as working poor?
The documents were forger by Niger, not our administration, do I have these facts correct? Please limit the name calling if we are to have a civil discussion.
What level of income "In your Opinion" would qualify as working poor?
"Breaking and Entering in the nightime",serve time? Yes I hope so
I have not seen forged documents by our government,have you? Cheney knew about it? Knew about what,where is your hard proof?
If the 17 year old broke into a house instead of a Country club would that interest you. In your world a fake I.D is comparable to "Breaking and Entering"? You should read the penal code my friend, B&E's are a serious crime.
We are talking federal income tax here. What level of income "In your Opinion" would qualify as working poor?
I'm interested in how the Vermont court system deals with someone charged with burglary, especially the well heeled. It will be interesting.
Sox, Only true depending on your description of "Poor". What would you say constitutes the poverty level with regards to income? 5,000/year?10,000/year? 15,000/year?
Tinner, it is called growth. Sit back and watch the next few years. Nice to see you hold the office in respect,when do you graduate High School?
Maine,you said I was on ignore! Tisk,tisk.
Deans son was "The Wheel Man" in burglary. The wheels of justice grind slow, but oooooh do they grind. This should be interesting to follow through the Vermont court system, and very telling.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/06/22/dean.son/
Sarai, did you see him on Russert Sunday a.m.? He looked foolish! My suggestion is to hook your wagon on another Dem. I would be thrilled to see the Dem's nominate Dean. :) Or Sharpton!
Gov. Deans son arrested along with other theifs for stealing liquor, lets see if the press picks this one up.
I'm happy,Lower Tax rate,double the child credit, reduction of marriage penalty. I still pay to much but it is fairer!:)))
Sarals, Your missing the boat, the poor don't pay taxes!
America seems to agree with me,so does Congress,it did pass:)
PLKC .01x.015 now ut's
Federal? Can you interpret this from the Fed site. This info taken from the Temporary button but I still don't know how to read it. tia
Open Market Operations: 06/20/2003
The Desk has entered the market announcing: O/W RRP
Temporary Operations Statistics
Weighted Average Rate 1.158
Stop Out Rate (Lowest Rate Accepted) 1.170
Highest Rate Submitted 1.210
Lowest Rate Submitted 1.140
Total Propositions Submitted (In $Bil.) 6.650
Total Propositions Accepted (In $Bil.) 3.500
Bush Tax Plan great for Middle America and Farmers too!
USDA Ag Secretary Ann Veneman said farm families will see significant tax savings following the enactment of President Bush's Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003.
"By ensuring that millions of Americans keep more of their own money to invest and spend, this legislation will help spur the economic recovery," said Veneman. "The final bill continues to mean significant savings for farm families, which will receive over $4 billion in tax relief in 2003."
Veneman said that the President's plan, which was signed in to law on May 28, will benefit over 86 percent of all farm households with an average tax reduction in 2003 of $2,000 or a 16 percent savings. As the Secretary previously announced, the savings include $2.3 billion from the acceleration of reductions in income-tax rates, marriage penalty relief and the increased child credit and $1 billion from increasing the bonus first-year depreciation and the amount of capital investment that can be expensed from $25,000 to $100,000.
A new analysis of the plan as enacted, prepared by USDA's Office of the Chief Economist, estimates that farmers will save $700 million from the reduced tax rate on dividends and $500 million from the reduced tax rate on capital gains. Additional savings will also come from the increase of $9,000 for married taxpayers and by $4,500 for single taxpayers of the alternative minimum tax (AMT) exemption, which will allow most farmers to fully benefit from the tax cuts.
The reduction in dividend tax rates to 15 percent (5 percent for taxpayers in the 15 percent or lower income tax bracket) will benefit one third of all farm households and over half of all households with a farmer over the age of 65, with an average savings of $1,200. The tax rate on capital gains, an important income source for 45 percent of all farmers, will be reduced to 15 percent (5 percent for taxpayers in the 15 percent or lower income tax bracket) and will generally apply to sales on or after May 6, 2003. While farmers will save an estimated $500 million in 2003, the benefit will increase to $750 million in 2004, when the new rate will be effective for the entire year.
The increased expensing of capital investment, raising bonus first-year depreciation from 30 to 50 percent and raising the amount of investment that can be expensed from $25,000 to $100,000, will allow 98 percent of all farmers to deduct their entire investment and greatly simplify their record-keeping requirements. For 2003, the amount of farm machinery and equipment that can be immediately deducted is estimated to increase by about $3.5 billion or 25 percent.
President Bush’s tax relief plan includes:
Replacing the current tax rates of 15, 28, 31, 36, and 39.6 percent with a simplified rate structure of 10, 15, 25, and 33 percent
Doubling the child tax credit to $1,000 per child and applying the credit to the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT);
Reducing the marriage penalty by reinstating the 10 percent deduction for two-earner couples;
Eliminating the death tax;
Expanding the charitable deduction to non-itemizers; and
Making the Research and Experimentation (R&D) tax credit permanent.
J,You picked KTEL earlier?
OT: Woods just hit iron 257 yards, ON the green!Wow!
WLD, Totally agree. Would you mind if we continued this talk later, Sunday dinner with family plus worship. I am interested in your trades, ES,NQ,YM. Specifically your triggers etc... Cheers and as always Good Fortune to you and family.
*PLKC* Put your buy orders in at .01. S-8 Play as in ADZR!