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Raj, hasnt Indymac receivership closed?
AZ, I understand your reasoning but dont you think FDIC-R need to closeout the receivership also before safe harbor is released?
AZ, what are your toughts on the remaining FDIC-R lawsuit against the big banks in Libor manipulation case on behalf of all failed banks including Wamu? Would that case settlement not be required for FDIC-R to close shop on Wamu receivership and would that not be required for the safe harbored assets to be released?
I agree, this waiting is bordering on insanity...but the bigger the potential payout, the longer the wait
Yes, but class 17 still hasnt received a single payment since the settlement. So I'm assuming no one gets any safe harbored assets until FDIC R closses the receivership. I thinn in order for that to happen, they need to settle the remaining issue on book..the Libor lawsuit
I dont think CIC can happen until the remaining Libor lawsuit is settled and FDIC R can close up shop...which is why I have a funny feeling we will magically hear about a settlement in the next month.
see my post #536182
I wouldnt be obsessing over this for 10 years if I didnt believe in the $86B number.
Diamond, I meant $10B just from the Libor suit. Not the entire pot of gold from the safe harbored ABS trusts.
Dmdmd2020, I think those numbers are best case scenario. Remember, there has been a lot of mortgage refinancing during the last 10 years so not all the MBS will be liquidated at full value. Its not clear what the put back clauses are for the portfolio for early payoffs on the loans. But even at a 50% discount on those numbers comes out to about $86B...which is surprisingly close to the conservative estimate from Dr. A.
Yes, there were many banks involved. I think Raj posted a link earlier of an article about the FDIC filing the suit in europe for $400B. You can probably expect at most 10% of that in settlement. And maybe a quarter of that settlement might flow back to Wmi as we dwarf all the other banks in asset size in 2008. So I'm guessing at most $10B flows back to escrow from the Libor suit. I'm not really counting on it though. I rather they settle early for less and get the ball rolling on closing the receivership.
I'm not really counting on the Libor suit other than to settle quickly so that we can move forward with clsoing the receivership. But this has potential settlement for 10% and if WMI gets a quarter of that we might be looking at another $10B bonus for patiently waiting 10 years.
FDIC-R stated after the DB settlement, they relesed all funds in the receivership (2.7B) minus $100 mil in change to continue receivership until Libor suit is settled. If you google it, I'm sure you can dig up the press release somewhere.
Safe Harbor provision is part of FDIC-R regulations so imo, it can only end when FDIC-R closes WMB receivership. IMO, Libor case must be settled before safe harbored assets repatriots to escrow.
9/25 will be 10tb year anniversary of WMB takeover. FDIC does claim "most" receiverships do close out within 10 years. So who knows... maybe..just maybe, we may hear of Libor settlement announced after hours on a Friday between now and 9/25
I really think she is sympathetic to us and that's why I'm afraid for her safety. "They" might try to bring an untimely end to her and bring in a new judge at the last minute and screw us all. I'm really paranoid now that we are very close to the end. There is a lot of money at stake...remember all those bankers that mysteriously jumped off their corporate towers a few years back?
It seems to me that safe harbored assets may not be released until FDIC-R closes....which means it must resolve the only remaining case pertaining to WMI, which is the Libor case.
So if we are to be paid this year, I suspect FDIC will magically announce a settlement soon.
Not true. FDIC R remains open due to Libor case. FDIC R is suing on behalf of failed banks accusing big banks of Libor misconduct that contributed to their downfall.
Anyone thinking FDIC R will magically settle the Libor suit with JPM right before 9/25?
AZ, is it possible for the escrow markers to be cancelled after the $40 mil leftover from WMILT is paid and the safe harbored performing ABS trusts still paying us after? I dont think that is possible. They would still need the escrow markers as pass through entity to repatriot those safe harbored funds to us.
So, would you not agree to one of the following scenarios as the only possible path forward:
1) safe harbored performing ABS trusts starts paying out on 9/25 and class 17 gets paid and the rest comes to escrow markers either on 9/25 or 10/25. Then WMILT pays off PIERS and the 40 mil on 11/1 and then cancels the escrow markers
or...
2) WMILT pays off PIERS but witholds 40 mil for some bullshit reasons and drags this on a little longer until FDIC R closes shop after the Libor lawsuit with JPM ends
or...
3) WMILT pays off PIERS and the 40 mil to escrow and does not cancel the markers and thus acknowledging the future return of safe harbored assets.
or...
4) WMILT pays off PIERS and the 40 mil to escrow and then cancels the escrow markers and BK ends. Hence we are all SCREWED!
I dont see any other possible scenarios... Can you?
AZ, I guess the good thing is this will be over by Nov 1st at the latest. They will have to finish paying off PIER and then pay the rest of 40 mil in change to escrow 75/25 and then our escrow markers will disappear if that really is the end and there are no safe harbored assets coming back to us. One way or another this will be over.
Do you think safe harbored assets and class 17 might be paid before Nov 1st?
AZ, do you find it odd that employee claims were disallowed after being dragged along for all this time? I thought the original board theory is that they were being dragged so that they wont talk about the "FDIC takeover crime" in depsitions? Why are they being dismissed now?
Btw, everyone should be reminded that the $3B allowable claim at the FDIC-R is only for the put back claims for "bad performing loans". 3B is not for the entire missing portfolio which is protected behind safe harbor. So far class 17 wmb notes have not seen a single dime from the entire missing portfolio behind safe harbor.
What I'm trying to say is that there is a big pot of money much larger than the $3B that is behind safe harbor. If FDIC simply took that portfolio and "gave" it to JPM, DB has a fudiciary duty to sue for the entire missing portfolio. They only sued for put back claims. The question still remains...
When are we going to see the payments to class 17 wmb notes from the main safe harbored portfolio (not just the $3B put back claims) resume? Why hasnt class 17 sued anyone for their missing payments? since the put back claims lawsuit has already been settled for $3B...class 17 should be asking "hey we understand that FDIC-R may not have enough money to pay us the $3B put back claims, but where is the rest of our money from the rest of the portfolio behind safe harbor?"
AZ, can you think of anyway, the big boys can somehow go around us by using hide and seek methods and take the whole pie and leave us out? I'm concerned that there hasnt been any lawsuits filed by the big boys seeking the release of safe harbored assets. Maybe they have something up their sleeve where they can somehow use statute of limitation rules to hide the assets and then claim it when retail 'abandons' their claim by lack of claim filing or something along that line.
Can you start thinking of potential routes that the big boys might take to go around us and take everything for themselves?
Again, I cant imagine the big boys not wanting their prize after 10 years as much as us retail. And they have plenty of legal resources? Why arent we seeing any filings from them to get their billions? Maybe they have found a way around us to keep the whole pie for themselves.
AZ,are you saying that employee claims must be settled before the ABS trust assets are released? Since, the employee claims are being held up by FDIC refusing golden parachute, isnt the FDIC ultimitely the culprit holding back the safe harbored funds at this point? Why are they doing that since DB suit has been settled? Are they waiting for the Libor suit against JPM? But that suit claim is not against the estate of WMI? so why do you think they are holding back on employee claim and thus holding back on the release of safe harbored assets?
Yeah, that's what they claimed they did back in January. I remember seeing the DB filing.
As a direct owner of class 17 notes, is there anyone on the trust side that you can contact for an explanation of the delay in distribution?
AZ, I'm still puzzled by why we havent heard of any legal action by Class 17 wmb bondholders over the late distribution. Since, FDIC seems to have released the distribution, and DB has completed the probate, who is at the helm with the authority to withold the distribution to class 17?
Well, at least Gallagher in a way confirmed that non of the legacy safe harbored assets will "directly" come back to WMIH so if there is any possibility of WMIH having access to those assets, they will either have to buy them with cash or s4v exchange with the owners.
Now that leaves the question of whether those assets will "automatically" return to escrow owners or do we need to file some sort of claim at the "lost and found" desk??
Has anyone ever asked WMILT directly if there are any safe harbored assets that belonged ti WMI that was bankruptcy remote. For all the insinutaions that WMILT put out with regards to this is all we have, that have never officially stated that there are no safe harbored assets. It will be a very simple statement and will get rid of all these "pesky questions" from escrow owners.
Can we get them to state officially that there are no safe harbored assets that belongs to WMI?
Danti, if that is the case then we need a formal filing from WMILT stating that there are no safe harbored assets that belonged to WMI.
Itsmyoption, what was the exact question you asked Mike Gallagher? Was it regarding the safe harbored assets for escrow?
Thats the idea. I'm not saying we sue anyone. Lawsuits are expensive. I'm just saying we get legal advice on whether we can find out what is behind safe harbor and whether or not if old WMI equity needs to file a claim to those bankruptcy remote assets or will they come back to us automatically.
The ownership could be stated as WMI on paper but since safe harbor assets were bankruptcy remote there is a possibility that it might not be covered by POR7.
Do you want to take a risk by sitting on our ass hoping that it will come back to us automatically? What if we need to claim it to get it back. There is a risk it might go "unclaimed" when the asset comes out of safe harbor because the "owner" WMI is considered deceased.
I'm not saying this is a fact. I'm just saying I'm not a legal expert and this could be similar to a person dying without a will -- where next of kin may have to file a claim or the assets might go unclaimed and return to state.
We are not suing for fraud. I am suggesting legal help to find out what is hidden behind safe harbor and whether or not we need to file a claim to go after those assets or if those assets will come back to us automatically. I just think there is a risk that those bankruptcy remote assets can be sitting there and if retail does not claim it, it might be considered abandoned.
Survey: who is interested in crowd funding legal representation for the following...
1) File disclosure actions to both bankruptcy court and FDIC to reveal WMI ownership stake in all the various ABS trusts that were protected from the bankruptcy by safe harbor.
2) File class action claim on behalf of retail escrow markers on those assets.
Survey 2: Who is interested in leading this effort by..
1) Contacting S&G how much it will cost to retain their service to file the above 2 actions
2) start a crowd sourcing go fund me page to collect required funds
What if the tranche system only covers assets that were part of the bankruptcy as AZ claims and also as WMILT has repeatedly implied also. Then, we cannot simply wait for escrow distribution. The big boys have lawyers...what if they file claims for the bankruptcy isolated safe harbored assets now sitting in those various trusts and retail doesnt file..Then they will end up getting all of the pie and and retail will simply have abandoned their claim. This is a possibility that we need to address. We need to organize a legal fund now
No, we may be allowing our assets to be stolen by sitting on our asses believing we are riding coattails. We know DB as trustee has gone through probate. As trustee, they just need to distribute the assets to the various ABS trusts. If WMI owned certain percentage of those trusts, and those trusts were not part of the bankruptcy due to safe harbor isolation, then there is a possibility that we need to file claims to go after them...or they might be considered abandoned after some time and end up going to the government.
What if the scenario is similar to someone dying without a will. If you are next of kin of the deceased, you will need to go file a claim to the estates assets otherwise it will be considered abandoned after some time and simply go to the state.
We may need to organize a go fund me page to gather some funds and hire an attorney to file a class action claim. It will ne awesome if we can retain Sussman's firm again.
Can we file something with the BK court to compel the disclosure of safe harbor assets at this time? Since the statute of limitation has already run out on bankruptcy fraud, I don't see any reason why the court would need to keep the veil on any longer.
If the ABS certs truly are disassociated from WMI bankruptcy then is there a freedom of information request that we can file with FDIC to compel them to disclose the true value and ownership status of the safe harbor assets?
Can anyone with access to legal advice or industry experience like CBA09 chip in with an answer to this question?
My biggest fear is the statement that the examiner made in court...something like..."Your honor the assets will be retained and equity can pursue them later".
So maybe, all the ABS trusts have been liquidated and are sitting pretty on a bunch of earned interest in cash but maybe we need to "pursue" them as they do not automatically need to return to escrow owners.
The first step is disclosure. Can we look into Freedom of Information type action to force FDIC to disclose these safe harbored assets?
Doc, I dont think A&M serves the role of trustee. They are probably charging $2M a year just to keep the lights on for the trusts.
We know for sure that DB was trustee for at least the trusts backing class 17 WMB notes and they were discharged by the probate court last year...still no payment to class 17.
Note, AZ owns some class 17 notes and he still hasnt received any notice of payment.
How can there not be any lawsuits from class 17 for no payment after the probate is done. Who is in charge of distribution since DB is apparently done?
AZ, who is the trustee in charge of all these trusts right now. Since DB is gone, who is going to make sure that all the interest cash sitting in these trusts will eventually make it back to the escrow owners. This has been bothering me for a while. There really is no one looking out for the interest of escrow owners. There is no one accountable for the return of those assets. Who can we sue if we dont ever see a dime again?