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well, that sure makes it sound like they have a granted patent on the HERO part!
but i dont think that is what googel patents sasys about it.
and it might be not legally be a lie or misleading statement to say this with a pending patent as opposed to an issued one
but maybe that would be a false statement but they have been issued a patent on the HERO system and google is just wrong
or maybe it is a false statement and they are just not being careful
one thing - i am inclined to think Dober owns the patent on the thing that they developed together, not GDGI, and i dont think what they wrote suggests that they own the patent. does what they wrote suggest Dober could not say the same sort of thing..."We enlisted the help of the foremost pre-cooling experts to develop an anti scale thing and we also sell it for other applications besides precooling" Dobers and GDGIs statements would not be at all contradictory. so who owns the patent?
they seem to be chemical engineers with a lot of products. that is their area of expertise. could be GDGI owns the patent and licenses it Dober. where is the income from all the other applications? i think Dober bore the cost of developing it with their in house expertise and owns it and sells it for many applications, of which pre cooling is one
one again, nice finding stuff. my hat is off to you sir.
and please remember, there does not have to be a patent infringement case and GDGI does not have not have to have 100% market share to be a great deal
i am NOT saying GDGI is not a great deal
i am saying be cautious about getting your hopes up about too much about something that could end up being disappointing
i hope you are right though!
well patent and trademark are two different things
but this says they have both! i will speak to the question of why trademark things first
all kinds of things have trademarks that are not patented
why is this so?
because you create recognition for the name you give something
and you dont want other people to benefit from your efforts to create recognition for the name
what they achieve by getting their own trademark for something that dolber sells under a different name is the ability to spend money promoting their product and not be spending that money to promote an identical product sold by a competitor. make sense?
but this more significant because it also says they have not just a trademark but a PATENT.
however i recently read a link to google patents that steve put up and i am pretty sure it said the patent on the complete HERO water treatment system was pending, not granted. somebody else might want to double check that.
i have seen a press release sometime in the last two years that said the patent for the residential system was granted
i have not seen a similar thing for the water treatment system, but maybe i just missed it, or it was issued after they ran low on money so they did not PR it
regardless, their having a patent on a particular series of water treatment measures that includes the polymer product from Dolber does not necessarily mean that no one else can make a different series of water treatment measures that incorporates the polymer. it might mean that, it might not. depends on how broad a patent was granted
maybe i misread the google patents or the google patents is not up to date and they have actually been issued a patent on the full hero system. maybe the patent is broad enough that no one else can use polymers with some different series of filters. also maybe not.
also it seems to say the whole HERO system is one thing and the mechanical filter part of the patent is another. so perhaps the component that has a patent is a mechanical rather than chemical part that is perhaps a component of the HERO system for which they do have a patent, and that patent is the single granted patent for the whole residential system of which the mechanical system is a part, and, as the google record suggests, their application complete HERO system is still pending
maybe B.E is indeed infringing on a granted patent
i still doubt it
but it is possible there is a patent infringement issue here
and if so, perhaps although they are low on funds they can get someone to take it on contigency, or get BE to make settlement out of court for past sales and license from them going forward
one way or another, good finding stuff!
well done sir
maybe both of us
if i am, i dont think i will have ever been happier to have been wrong
well thanks! i am fine
not looking for a new home really
staying with friends, family, clients
camping
as for avoiding starving
i know how to eat cheap
but i have an ample food budget
i appreciate your concern and good wishes
i am touched by your kindness
though i do not feel in need
it warms my heart to know there are compassionate people in this world because there are certainly others in need of compassion
like our poor CEO. people on this board think holding this stock is stressful? think about Ben! that's gotta be tough to be always on the brink of success but outwardly appearing to fail, and that whole brush with the SEC and the Levys totally i-cant-say-what-for-fear-of-offending-delicate-ears-ing him. OUCH!
well, collaboration might not mean much in this context
for instance
Hello? Dolber? do you think it is a good idea for us to buy your filter and use it with this activated carbon filter in line first, then this particular reverse osmosis filter, and then we use your polymer additive at the end of the line? or should we be idiots and put your polymer filter at the beginning of the line and filter out the polymer? the first one? ok, thanks for collaborating with us to help our engineers design a water treatment system. two minute conversation = collaborating with leading experts to design system
they want to sound all fancy pants, so they dont say
<grunt> we got some wery good filters we make, tovarisch.
now lets stab this bread with a knife and see if we can eat the pickle and drink the bottle of vodka before the table stops shaking!
they say we made our water treatment system in collaboration with the foremost water treatment experts in the world
i was disappointed when i realized they did not own this themselves. if you look back i had said that there were doubtless other applications for the polymer additive that could provide additional revenue
if the stock were still at 10 cents, i would be dismayed that this is not the case, but at .04 cents, this is still clearly a steal
PR the debt getting knocked off and it doubles on decent volume
PR a big sale and away we go, sometime in the next year
i have a hunch BE is exaggerating their sales
but nobody is going to suceed in suing them for that
unless they buy their stuff and it does not work
and i am guessing it works
just maybe not as good as GDGIs
they have been refining it for some time now
it could go lower, but i am not at all confident it will
you might want to snag yourself at least a few shares
while the prices are down
the could drop a little more, but i think there is a floor there
having competition is not the end of the world. other companies valued in the billions have competition.
shoot, just having the public company structure is worth 500k!
granted they have some debt, but say the company just can never execute at all - the fact that they are recognized as precooling, have some endorsements, and the structure, and only 800k in debt...
i would think a competitor would be lucky to take them over at this price if they could get the funding to do it
i think fundamentals say there is a floor value that is above .002 even if they cant do a damn thing ever, so .003s are a steal
of course, i would be thrilled to be wrong
and i might be
perhaps it is accurate to say that GDGI is not always very careful in their communication, and hence it is possible that they DO have rights of exclusive use to Dolber Polymers as opposed to merely having trademarked a name for a specific filter cannister with the polymers in it, even though they have never said so
in that case, we will hear them say so soon, and that they are looking into legal action against B.E. and or Dolber, and i would hope they would update their website to reflect their exclusive use agreement for the polymer
i am not gonna hold my breath
Dolber looks like a pretty legit ongoing enterprise with a lot more than just the massive sales volume to GDGI going on for them, so i doubt they are selling their product to someone else in violation of an as yet undocumented exclusive agreement as posited here by some
i should perhaps mention that i got a B on a spelling test in third grade once and i occasionally use punctuation correctly by accident, so you know... i know what i am talking about.
i agree
suing russians for violating an right of exclusive use of someone else's patented thing that you likely dont have (since no one has claimed such exclusivity) is even harder than suing people whose legal system in their jurisdiction of incorporation is more US friendly and based on english common law
i wish people would focus on the real value of GDGI instead of trying to find some deus ex machina event of dubious likelihood because i think we have a real company here with real prospects and all these repeated efforts to promote the idea that there is some immediate rosy result coming ending in repeated disappointment are only driving long term investors to despair. and focus on stuff that a reasonable person can see right through as a super long shot and unclear or naive thinking may just make other people looking think there is nothing real to focus on.
there is something real to focus on. patents, trademarks, the unique property of being a publicly traded company focused on precooling with some sales and some successful installations, and EPA endorsement, which no other competitor has, a toe hold in a market that will some day be huge.
despair not. do not jump all over me for the accurate statement that there have repeatedly been expressions of optimism for the near term that have not been met, not one of them, just realize that almost all of that, with the exception of the january statement from the CEO, has come from speculation on this message board, not the company.
the failure of the company to meet the expectations created by this board is not the same as failure of the company. it is a failure of the board. don't run out of patience because board predictions have not come true, and please stop making predictions that do not come true and testing other investors (and perhaps your own patience).
patience. borrow money, cut your expenses, and keep your shares. i no longer have a home. my stuff is in free storage at a friends house and i roam the globe staying cheap or free and surfing, kayaking, canoeing, and doing a little remote or local work here and there to cover my minimal expenses. i had not planned on waiting this long, but i changed my plan and my budget so that I can wait. i bet you can too.
those statements are in no way incompatible
both can easily be true
i find it hard to believe that anyone can sincerely fail to see this, but optimism can be blinding i suppose
for instance GDGI talked with Dobler about developing the polymer additive and the canister and gave feedback and testing.
they developed the canister for residential treatment and made a trademark name for it, which only means no one else can call their cannister that without GDGI permission
then Blue Energy saw what they had done, bought polymer filters with Dolbers trademarked Smart Release Polymer to which GDGI has never claimed exclusive use and had their engineers combine it with a reverse osmosis or physical sieve or whatever other filter to make a "water treatment system" while asking Dolber for advice along the way.
we don't need any of this speculation about patent infringement on patents that GDGI does not hold and exclusive use on products that they have not claimed exclusive use to be true for B.E.s possibly exaggerated accomplishments to be a good sign
their experience proves their is a market, now GDGI has to get some market share
why buy GDGI short term and long term
short term
good chance for the price to go when the Levy verdict comes in
so hold. borrow if you have to raise cash.
i think it is very likely to wipe out the 2.2 million debt
whether or not it is wiped away in October, no way they are going to have to pay convicted serial fraudsters for defrauding them, and they have already paid some in stock if not in cash, so that should cover any legit service rendered in taking them public
also regarding recent buzz on the board driving us to the breakout board, everybody is talking about the discovery of blue energy, who claims to have sold a bunch of a similar product
whether or not these sales violate a patent held by GDGI or rights to exclusive sale of a patent held by an allied company (rights that do not seem to be documented anywhere and may not exist), the early success (perhaps exaggerated - they are not publicly trading and exaggerating their sales is not the same kind of crime for them as it would be for a public company like GDGI, not much to stop them there) of this competitor may suggest that GDGIs quality of product and patents will not guarantee them 100% market share, it does show there is a market.
GDGI is the only place you can invest in a publicly traded company that focuses on providing commercial pre-cooling. they are valued at around 1 million dollars. they only need a sliver of the market share to be worth 10 to 100 times more than 1 million.
they have been slow to execute, but the management has showed they are very tenacious and thrifty and committed to perservering unlike many pennies, a large portion of the stock is held by management, like 30%, and the number of outstanding shares is quite low by penny standards, so when you buy 2,500,000 shares for $10,000, you are getting 1% of this company, not 1/100th of a percent as you would with many other pennies. and you are buying a company where management has the same interests as you because htey own a lot of stock. they are not going to dilute it to pay themselves outrageous salaries. they are going to remain thrifty and make their stock value go up and get rich with their investors.
while there is some possibility that some longs will get fatigued or lose hope because they have taken to heart the recurring theme of this board that "i think something is going to happen soon" instead of thinking i have no idea when something is going to happen, but i believe if i am patient, this will go up 10x or more, it is also possible that no one is willing to sell this stock for such a small fraction of what it could easily be worht in a year or less, and woudl rather risk their $1,000 or $4,000 turning into zero than miss out on $10,000 or $100,000. and that those few who give up too soon will find their shares snatched up at similar to current prices.
prices might fall as low as half of what they are before this goes shooting up, but the current long stockholders could also buy up the few shares of the few that leave and the price may remain where it is for a bit and then rise.
also, at any time, the asia royalties coudl start rolling in, the company could make a minor sale in palm springs or elsewhere and PR their opinion regarding the levy debt being erased, or they could surprise me by closing their costa rica sale or another sale early.
so with a chance of a temporary downside of up to 50% but also a chance of an upside of double to 10 to 100 times at any moment, i say
GDGI
stands for Good Day to Get In
if i had dry powder i would be looking to buy
i think the debt will get wiped just about for sure
it will be a major achievement in its impact
but i hope also as easy as falling off a log
i cant imagine they are going to say the levy's get to charge the company 2.2 million for what was ruled to be defrauding the company and its investors
and whatever legit work they did taking them public would be less than 500k and they were already compensated with stock
makes sense about it is hard to split up the money fairly. the paperwork and so forth would eat up a bunch of the dough. and my guess from observing federal bureaucracy in action (inaction)* they probably view pennies and penny stockholders as a giant pain in the neck and a bunch of fools and charlatans more than victims to be protected. they got their hands full with the big companies.
*not to say we don't need em, just the nature of the beast.
i almost agree
i think unlikely but not certain nobody gets money
but very close to certain (not merely best case)
debt gets wiped out 100%
slim chance the levys get to charge for a portion for taking them public, but they have already paid the levys some in form of stock, so about 99.99% the whole 2.2 million debt will be gone
why do you think it is certain they get no money?
oops. nevermind. that was a pm. well, no harm done i hope
i pretty much already said that
hmm. i have developed products in partnership with other companies*. i think you misunderstand the process of partnering to develop things. my understanding is that if you are not granted exclusive use, you are not granted exclusive use. regardless of whether you work together to develop something, the patent belongs to who it belongs to. if you have an agreement that you are the only one who can use it, you are the only one who can use it.
you might ask, why would someone work to develop something and not get exclusive use? well, what was GDGI's contribution to the process? maybe not huge.
does GDGI get favorable pricing? perhaps they get that rather than exclusive use. do they get exclusive use? perhaps. if so, they should certainly say so, instead of not saying so.
still very strongly of the opinion that GDGI is a buy. these other competitors may never go public. GDGI is the one place you can invest in pre-cooling, and the early success (which i believe is grossly exaggerated, not a big problem for a non-public company to do this) of these competitors shows the market is real and growing.
GDGI has EPA, Harvey Mudd, and Tulane endorsements. they don't need a world wide monopoly on adabiatic pre-cooling to be a huge financial success and worth WAY more than one million dollars, and indeed, more than 100 million dollars. this can still easily be a 10 bagger or 100 bagger EVEN IF it is second place to blue energy now and forever. and it may not be now, and it may not be for long.
*the last time i was involved in partnering to develop a prodcut with another company, the CEO of the partner company refused to give us anything at all or pay us, citing a non-performance clause that my partners had signed. it was b.s. - we did not fail to perform and we had a non-performance clause too and they DID fail to perform, but they had deep pockets and we could not afford to litigate. so we developed it for nothing. bummer!
you guys are doing an incredible job digging up information
but i dont think you always analyze it objectively
i would be happy to be wrong and have someone explain to me why the residential trademark name for cool release means no one else can use polymer additives or that Dolber smart release is exclusive to GDGI
please do set me straight if you can!
the company being hugely under valued is the one thing that i see that supports the possibility of a buyout.
does anyone see any other reasons to suspect a buyout?
people have said the company's silence indicated a buyout.
others said failure to file indicated a buyout.
i think that my guess that those things indicated still broke, still no news have been more or less vindicated now that the company has broken its silence with FB posts and said they are working on getting current.
so how does that contradict what i said?
Blue Energy has no patents, to be clear. none at all.
i did not mean GDGI has no patents. i did not think it necessary to clarify, since we all know they do.
GDGI has a patent on the residential system with the paddle.
they have pending (not yet granted) patent on a SERIES of filters that if granted would mean the smart release stuff they get from dobler could still be used by others, but not in the sequence specfied.
Cool Release is the filter cartridge for the resdiential unit.
Smart Release belongs to Dobler
do you see something that I don't that says GDGI has exclusive use of smart release for pre-cooling? all i see is that all kinds of people use smart release.
you are doing your research before you post, but you seem to be jumping to conclusions.
maybe i am missing something that you saw in there?
saying it took 2 years and foremost people were involved is not the same thing as saying they have exclusive use. also the residential filter system is very different from the commercial one. also trademarking a name means only you can use the name. it does not mean only you can use the thing that is named.
make sense?
i agree. someone is getting out
anyone want to keep telling people
you think something is happening soon?
or will you maybe stop doing that finally?
pretty sure they are exaggerating some of those sales for BE
pretty funny how they use GDGI's photo of the slant sided heat exchanger in Mexico. slobs.
can you show me where they say it is exclusive?
they have no patents.
smart release is not GDGIs patent. it is licensed.
there is no issue here.
those guys are based in england and US but they are russians
notice how they spell "costumer" ?
and other weird language things going on
they have a comma fault before they get through the second sentence: "In addition to cooling capacity enhancment this solution ensusures substantial economy of electric energy, consumed by cooling and conditioning units."
if only they had a a high school honors student to help them communicate!
(see, that is an exclamation, so it gets an exclamation point.)
although where I live, "in order" in the following sentence would be considered redundant and hence an example of bad writing style.
also, the semi-colon is not used correctly; a semi-colon separated two complete related sentences.
"My father was an English teacher at the high school level, and I was an honor student in my own high school; having been repeatedly put into 'advanced' English classes, so I have a good handle on the use of written words in order to communicate properly. "
irony.
patent is legit but not necessarily broad enough ---
the patent that has already been granted
the filter patents pending might be an issue
but they are pending, not yet granted
if i am not mistaken
the other company does not claim patents though do they?
no comment
no comment
because 7 whole days later (or is it 14 now?)
they dont have something new to say yet
and they are not just going to prattle on
about vapors like a typical penny stock hype machine
i expect that they will continue to be very shy about making anything that might be viewed as a misleading statement given their recent encounter with the SEC testifying about the Levys and their subsequent commitment to being a hype free company
as i said before, getting close to finishing a test in CR is not the same as finishing a test and it is a long way from a sale
i dont know about palm springs, but since no pending big sale was mentioned, i am only hoping for very positive test results from there
i would expect to see those any day now, but i would also not be surprised if it was as much as month
thanks Jay
hmm. guess they do not own those patents after all
i think i read carelessly some time ago
when they said they used patented technology to prevent scale in various press releases, they did not say the owned the patents
that was an incorrect inference on my part
both the patent on the spray on treatment that goes on the fins and the stuff in the water treatment system belong to someone else if i am not mistaken
...saying the SEC would do one thing or another that would lift your stock price would require a great deal of courage or bad judgement for someone who has recently been interrogated regarding their possibly being party to stock fraud. (references to muscles that protect reproductive organs and said organs redacted in deference to the delicate) i am so glad our leaders were exonerated! seriously. i was a little nervous about that, but i held on. someday, i think i will be rewarded for my faith.
the company owed the Levy's 2.2 million and perhaps still do, pending the SEC vacating that debt. i am CERTAIN that GDGI is going to be able to take that off the books eventually, and probably at sentencing time.
even though some of their service was legitimately helping them take over the telecom shell and use the structure to become publicly tradeable, i would think all the subsequent chicanery renders them unable to collect on that. even if the Levys could convince the SEC that some fraction of the 2.2 was for legit service and keep it from being vacated, if they try to collect, GDGI could counter sue for damages and the Levys as plaintiff from behind bars could not possibly prevail in collecting.
maybe some damages will come to those who held stock during the fraud, but i am not too optimistic after asking some (not specialized) lawyers (who were far from certain). ...pennies is as pennies do....caveat emptor...just a pain in the neck for the SEC
i am pretty certain the SEC is not going to be passing out money to people who bought AFTER the fraud. why would they? and giving the money directly to the company is giving money to people who bought AFTER the fraud, but not giving money to some people who bought and sold during the fraud. see?
of course, justice is not only blind. she is also crazy and seemingly lives on another planet. so who knows, i suppose.
"The simplest explanation of that remark is that Ben doesn't know because Levy hasn't been sentenced yet. "
was one post.
another post said:
"The conclusion that Ben doesn't know is an assumption on your part and represents only one possibility. "
as a native speaker of English, and a person armed with the wit to escape a wet paper bag, i would say with some conviction that the first post does not present a conclusion about what ben knows or does not know. it simply says that this explanation is the simplest.
it does not continue to say the simplest explanation is the best or most likely, nor does it say the poster concludes or assumes that the simple explanation posited is necessarily the true state of affairs, merely that it is the simplest explanation. period.
those are assumptions and conclusions about the first post made in the second post. i dont think anyone was trying to twist anyone's words, just a sincere post arising from reading comprehension problems.
but thank goodness we have a former high school honors student to tell us how to spell "back-peddle." i would doubt that it is how it is spelled, but those are pretty impressive credentials!
while we are boasting about our super impressive credentials, at my alma mater, currently ranked number 2 in the nation by Forbes, i am pretty sure we spelled that "back-pedal" as megladontheory said, but a lot of the students and faculty there may not have had the benefit of being high school honors students.
the stuff you spray on the fins to prevent scaling is extra and is patented by someone else
there is a chemical in the stock filter system that attaches to minerals and makes them irregularly shaped. if i recall correctly they have a patent on that chemical. it almost certainly has other applications that they have not even examined. there are also other patented chemicals that do similar things and do not belong to GDGI if i recall correctly.
for those who find the cremaster muscle offensive
i agree that that is the simplest explanation of that remark
it is also clear that you did not say it was the only explanation, or even the most likely. although one might infer that you thought it was the most likely, in which case i agree.
he almost certainly does not know, at least not the way i use the word "know." it has not happened yet. things could change. if he thinks he knows, he is wrong, at least the way i use the word know. if by "know" you mean think strongly believe something that might not be true, perhaps he knows. that is a waste of a perfectly useful word though.
if he is almost certain, i do not see why he would be constrained from saying so, unless his certainty was due to a leak from SEC.
i guess he did manage some restaurants in california, so maybe he is super connected to federal regulators who flew across the country to eat in his places. on the other hand, maybe not.
i am not saying anyone else said anything about this. I am saying it makes no sense to give current stockholders (by awarding money directly to the company) forfeiture proceeds (beyond the relief of the debt) because current stockholders were not necessarily victims of the levy fraud. stockholders during the period in which the levys commmitted the fraud were the victims.
if his lawyer told him to expect money to go to those who were stockholders at the time -he would not tell him it was going to the company, because that would not be compensating the victims, it would be compensating current stockholders, some of whom were in no way victims of the scam - i see no reason why he could not say "my lawyer advised me that there is a strong possibility stockholders who were victims, including me, will be compensated"
why would he not be able to say that?
his refraining from making rosy predictions suggest to me that he is not particularly optimistic, but it could be that he is somewhat optimistic but far from certain and just being cautious
saying the SEC is going to do one thing or another knowing this will lift your stock price would probably require a pretty impressive amount of courage or bad judgement.
i think it was play money to them
and that is why they tossed it out so casually
maybe a surprise bill i suppose, but why not ask .004 for while and see what that gets you instead of rushing
not a good time for an agressive risky short manuever
that is bucking the general positive sentiment too hard
whoa! that was nuts.
my guess. somebody with play money looking for a 10 to 1 and was ready to lose it all, got tired of watching, doesnt care that (s)he could have been patient and got at least .004 for those if he trickled them out
where was my bid support? i could have had those for .003. damn.
i think that is quite reasonable.
even if they dont lend money to their company,
at least not having to have a day job would be a big improvement
you might not care or be interested, but just in case it is helpful, you keep typing "coarse" instead of "course"
well, we knew that from when the said "very soon" in january. at least if you trust them. i think they believed it would be very soon in january. i hope we are right that there is a good chance it will be this year, but i think it is clear from prior experience that we can't count on the company's guess regarding timing of sales.
sure. but how is any cash getting returned to the company?
again, i believe the stockholders of the period were the victim of the fraud. management owned stocks in that period, so they would be compensated. private stockholders owned stocks in that period so they would also be compensated. the company did not hold issued shares in reserve during that period. if you give the company money directly instead of the shareholders, that does nothing for victims who sold. you are giving the victims money to current shareholders, who did not have any interest in the company at the time and did not suffer at all from the levy fraud, and in fact benefited from it because they were able to spot a bargain that the levy fraud created and pick up shares at a deep discount.
certainly the law is not always just, but i would be surprised if compensation from the forfeiture proceeds went directly to the company. justice would be much better served if it went to the actual victims rather than the current shareholders.
still, as i said, if compensation is paid, ben as a major shareholder during the period would be due compensation, and that might allow him to quit his day job and focus on running the company and also possibly loan his company money for sales efforts, which would be a big improvement
still, if the CEO can quit his day job
and focus on GDGI as a result of
getting some forfeiture proceeds in proportion
to his holdings of stock during the time of the fraud
that would certainly be a good thing
and providing they did not manage to spend/hide
a majority of that money (and we know some of their hiding places were found out - the panama launderer)
that could be a lot, enough
that he could lend his own company money
i bet it takes quite a while to disburse though
we do?
i think maybe if you read carefully, SEC knows they took in about 14 million, but how much of it they spent on cocaine and beanie babies and cocaine filled beanie babies remains to be seen
money should go to those who HELD stock
not those who hold stock
if you bought stock after the Levy fraud,
you are not a victim of the fraud
the victims were the stockholders, including
the management shares
the company held no shares of its own in reserve
so i dont see why they would be awarded recompense
management held shares, investors held shares
anyone who can show they held shares at the time is a victim and due compensation
anyone who did not is not
right?
i mean, i dont know the law, and it wont necessarily follow common sense and fairness, but if the stock dropped 90% and then you bought some AFTER that, the levys did not harm you. in fact, they helped you get this great stock that will eventually recover at a discount
if they DID award money directly to the company instead of those who held shares before and during the fraud, that would benefit the current shareholders and do nothing for the people who bought before the levy fraud and sold when the levy fraud cut the stock value 90+%
that hardly seems fair
right?