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No they don't. (eom)
I'm betting that it is... maybe even as we speak.
Tech,
4MW (Mega Watts) = 13.66 MBtu/hr
Nicely done Tech
Jagman...
Again it depends on many things:
- what type of biomass? (secondary sludge releases more energy then de-inkinig)
- moisture content is a huge factor (the more water the more energy to remove it)
- how much ash is in the material? (the less the better for burning)
- What other equipment is in the AGES system? (Other equipment in the process use power too. You would actually have to add the power used by every conveyor, motor, control panel, etc, in the entire AGES system to know exactly)
The spreadsheet in the Downloads section may give you some answers:
http://www.ages-biomass.com/downloads.htm
The KDS does not produce energy!!!
It only removes moisture and reduces particle size (and kills bacteria).
However, it does use about 75-85kWh to process a ton of "soft" biomass.
The product coming out of the KDS can be sold, burned, thrown away, etc, so the value of what comes out of it depends on what it is used for.
TR...Sorry but I don't recall that. Maybe it was megster?
TR...
So they want a shredder without rotating parts and few moving components that doesn't plug? Sounds like a knife to me...LOL
The KDS doesn't have many moving parts but it most definitely rotates (at least inside).
Hey, we are #5 and moving up...
http://www.investorshub.com/boards/default.asp
Wow, who writes this stuff?
I think "low input” means “low energy input” technologies. They are trying to develop more efficient ways to separate biomass components by studying how particle size, shape and density affect the separation process.
This quote “A UT survey showed similar concepts cutting across a range of separating actions. Pneumatic, gravity, and imaging exhibit the greatest potential." seems to say that they have noticed some common characteristics (which is a good thing) between the various separation technologies with the three listed showing greatest promise.
It seems to me that all this may refer not so much to the study of the KDS, but more to the study of the product from the KDS. Remember that this was the hold up at AP - what to do with the dry product. I think this quote confirms that “...Improved physical separation of biomass concentrates higher value components, returns unused plant components to soil, decreases bulk for wet separation processes, decreases drying energy, and improves transportation and use of a voluminous, chemically diverse feedstock...” That's what seems to interest them.
What is is reduced to?
You said it is processed with the KDS.
TIA
Janes,
You just have to make sure that the trucks are completely closed-in, otherwise at 5% moisture you create a dust storm on the highway.
Just some background info on the grants...
http://www.science.doe.gov/sbir/about/sttr_sheet.htm
The STTR program was created by Title II of the Small Business Research and Development Enhancement Act of 1992 (P.L. 102-564), reauthorized until the year 2001 by the Small Business Reauthorization Act of 1997 (P.L. 105-135), and reauthorized again until September 30, 2009, by the Small Business Technology Transfer Program Reauthorization Act of 2001 (P.L. 107-50).
Federal agencies with extramural R&D budgets over $1 billion are required to administer STTR programs using an annual set-aside of 0.15%. The set-aside will increase to 0.3 percent in FY 2004. Currently, five Federal agencies participate in the STTR program: the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, the National Science Foundation, and the Departments of Defense, Energy, and Health and Human Services.
The program's budget for FY 2004 is expected to be about $10 million, used to support annual competitions among small businesses for Phase I and Phase II awards. Phase I explores the feasibility of innovative concepts with awards up to $100,000 each for about 9 months. Phase II is the principal research or R&D effort, and awards are up to $750,000 over a two-year period. There is also a Phase III, in which non-Federal capital can be used by the small business to pursue commercial applications of the R&D.
STTR is similar to the Small Business Innovation Research (SBIR) program in that both programs seek to increase the participation of small businesses in Federal R&D and to increase private sector commercialization of technology developed through Federal R&D. The unique feature of the STTR program is that, for both Phase I and Phase II projects, at least 40% of the work must be performed by the small business, and at least 30% of the work must be performed by a non-profit research institution. Such institutions include Federally-funded research and development centers (for example, DOE national laboratories), universities, non-profit hospitals, and other non-profits.
The FY 2004 STTR solicitation was issued October 7, 2003 and closed for receipt of grant applications on January 6, 2004 . Additional program information is available on the Internet at http://www.science.doe.gov/sbir If you have any questions about the STTR program, please telephone (301) 903-1414, send e-mail to sbir-sttr@science.doe.gov, or write to the following address:
STTR Program Manager
SC-32/Germantown Building
U.S. Department of Energy
1000 Independence Avenue
Washington, D.C. 20585-1290
Another good find, TR!
PS. I passed it on to the "Reality Board".
2J, That sound amazing!!!
And what noble work you do. My hat off to you.
Congrats on your new toy...
and now that you have those heated seats you can come up to Canada
Welcome back Juggsy. How was the trip?
That's good enough
Why the assumption that MM know when the PRs are coming out?
Not too tight 10-Z...or you wont be able to get out when the time comes
No TR, we are not there yet, but the map is put away and the destination is clear.
Last chance to get some snacks for the road...
10-Z...
it may be time to fasten your seat belt
Tech, I think question #5 shows numbers for the new machine...
A: The standard performance guarantee conservatively states that the AGES equipment will remove 3000 lb of water per hour per KDS machine. This translates into the following approximate production rates:
Hog/wood @ 40% moisture will process at 4t/hr per KDS machine
P&P sludge @ 50% moisture will process at 3t/hr per KDS machine
P&P sludge @ 75% moisture will process at 2t/hr per KDS machine
http://www.ages-biomass.com/faq.htm
Nice catch TR!
This should answer a few long debated questions.
I would like to believe that it will, but deep down I think that something will delay it. So, sorry but I can't take that bet.
Well, I believe that we will have a sale of at least the new (large/6000) KDS with controls, etc. But, I don't think that we will get a whole power plant this year.
Jagman, I think that is the biggest problem: "proven history of the equipment". I believe that if we had that, then things would be a lot different now.
That someone will sell the large KDS within the next 6 months???
Jagman, that's just one motor that I mentioned. The KDS(s) would replace more then that.
The rotary drier they show I bet uses at least 100 million Btu/hr to process about 100 tph. That's about 30,000 kW or 300 kW per ton. Do you recall what the KDS uses? Based on the AGES video lets say 75kW per ton. There is that 4 to 1 saving again. Now remember that the KDS has already produced the powder. The Agri system still has to power that Hammer-mill to make the dust.
Are you a betting man, Rafael?
Fair enough, Rafael.
Although someone could order the 6000 at any time.
TR, sorry but I don't have the % numbers for you. I would have to do some calculations and even then they would only be approximations. I know though that the drier alone would require about 400% more energy to dry the waste then the KDS needs. Furthermore, the hammer-mill would no longer be required. So I bet that is another 200 or 300 Hp motor that the KDS would replace without additional energy requirement.
There should be almost no wear on the KDS because this would be a soft material.
Note also item 7 on the Agri system. It is a cooler. What a waste of energy! First you need energy to dry and then you need energy to cool? Hmmmm...
Again, these are just some quick thoughts. Nothing in-depth.
TR, I think that's about right as long as we remember that the KDS would only replace about 3 of the items on that picture: http://www.perdue.com/corporate/pellet_plant_schematic.pdf
As you point out, the extra AGES equipment would add a new dimension. But it would also add more cost and maybe make the two systems closer in price. It is hard to speculate here, but I don't believe that a complete AGES systems cost as much as a complete Agri solution.
PS. I just took another look at the rotary drier photo on their webpage and it is a beast. I would guess that it is at least 10ft diameter and 50ft long. This is JUST the drier part!
From the AgriRecycle webpage...
...The cost of each new AgriRecycle™ plant with the latest technology is an estimated $8-10 million...
and
...One AgriRecycle™ plant can process 120,000 tons of raw manure a year, or manure generated by 1,200 chicken houses on an annual basis...
So 120,000 t/yr / 365 days / 24hr/day = 13.7 t/hr
That would take about 5 or 6 of the new KDS6000 machines (or 15 to 20 of the existing KDS units). About the same production rate as AP wants, so we know that it should be feasible. IMO it would also cost less to buy and operate the FASC/AGES system.
Once again, it seems to me that the KDS6000 is a necessity now.
TR, after a quick scan, what jumps out at me is the ENORMOUS size and energy requirements of the Perdue/Agri system.
Items 3, 4 & 5 (on their picture) can all be replaced with the KDS. Why go with so much equipment which is high in maintenance and "old technology"? I don't see the reason yet. Maybe the cost or track record of the KDS was a big issue. But not even sure about that, since item 4 (the rotary drier) would cost almost as much as a KDS. Must have been the production rate then. The rotary driers can dry a couple of hundred tons per hour, although as I posted in the past, at about 4 times the energy cost. Look at item 6. Yes that is a 500HP motor. Twice the size of the KDS! Hammer Mill must be also huge. This system is very energy demanding.
I think that maybe FASC/KDS was not ready for this size job. I think that if the larger KDS6000 was an existing machine then it would have been a much stronger competitor for this system.
Has this been posted before? Seems like the KDS is one of the choices being seriously considered in this "Evaluation of Options for Fraser Valley Poultry Manure Utilization" :
http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/poultry/publications/documents/evaluation_poultry_manure.pdf
... 3.6.8 Conclusion
Both on-farm processing and centralized processing add costs to poultry manure in the order of C$50-60
per tonne. This is the same as, or somewhat higher than, the nutrient value in poultry manure, for both
macronutrients and micronutrients. Where local markets do not exist, transportation will add to the cost of
processed or composted manure to the user.
Pelletized, granulated, and enriched pelletized or granulated products could be shipped over longer
distances, as their sale prices appear to be much higher than of bulk pelletized product. Product prices of
bagged value-added product are in the US$230/ton range, well beyond the costs of pelletizing, bagging,
enrichment and transportation. Locally, the market for such products is small, and such products could
not rely only on regional distribution. Value-added products produced in the Lower Mainland must be
distributed well beyond the region.
Several technologies are available for processing large quantities of manure. The Agri-Recycle
technology will produce manure pellets that are pathogen free. This technology is suited for large-scale
operation. The technology includes drying, grinding and pelletizing. The KDS-Micromex technology
produces a similar product, as the manure is also dried, ground and pelletized, although the method of
processing is different. KDS dried material can be produced in small regional plants that may not attract
as much public attention as the Agri-Recycle facility that was proposed for Chilliwack. A granulation
facility could also be a small regional plant. In light of producing either customized fertilizer in a
complete line of specialized products, one or several small operations would be rather cost effective in
supplying specific markets with designed products. This is a great advantage over a bulk commodity type
facility...[/b
Speaking of the Polish job...
has anyone been able to find any info on this "MGM Engineering International Inc" which is FASC's rep in Poland?
Also, do we know if the financing has peen approved?
"...Project financing will be provided by Northstar Trade Finance Inc., a Canadian lender who provides funding in support of Canadian exports “provided they meet Northstar’s requirements for export performance coupled with a credit worthy foreign buyer who is insurable by Export Development Canada....”
TIA.
Oh no... we're not moving again are we? I hate moving... 10-Z do you have a truck...
tech, just saw your message from a couple of days ago...
The machine from Simoneau is at Atlantic Packaging. There is no KDS in Quebec as far as I know.
Ok, sorry folks, will try to keep the dry posts to a minimum...
So what are the chances of a PR this week???