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Sending my wishlist to Santa..
1)Employee attorney fees settlement by Thanksgiving
2) Final PIERS payment on Dec 1st.
3) Escrow payment on Christmas
Please please Santa.. I've been a very good patient boy!
Coop is worth $23 based on reported stock holder equity alone. Forget future business value. Why is it trading at $15? This thing should be trading minimum $30 right now. Weird.
It looks like they've booked about $1B earnings in tax benefit. I missed the conference call.
Can anyone confirm if they used up any of the 6B NOL against previous years earnings?
What is this $1B earnings and the stock hasnt doubled?
That scenario will leave too much room for theft. Bankruptcy will not close until after escrow markers are deleted. If the escrow markers are deleted then we are relying on who to to go out of the way and trace ownership of safe harbor assets through DTC to return ownership??
No, if escrow markers are deleted before safe harbor assets return then we need to start seeking legal representation or just give up.
I'm actually very hopeful even if they do not disclose what's in safe harbor...as long as they keep escrow open after distributing the last $40 mil from the trust.
Of course, if they close down the escrow markers after 40 mil then yes...we should arm ourselves with legal pitchforks
Yes, but once that $40 million hits our escrow account, I believe the estate is legally free to disclose safe harbored assets...which all of us have plenty of circumstantial evidence pointing to a large payout. I myself estimate this hidden piggy bank to be at least $80B.
So if we dont get any disclosure after our $40 mil hits escrow...then maybe we'll need to consider legal action to go after safe harbored assets.
But we'll soon find out. Either the trust shuts down our escrow markers after $40mil or we are due large money soon. If they shut down our markers after $40mil then we can start panicking. IMO
Anyone planning to attend court on the 1st? Maybe you can raise your hand and ask the judge to have Hochberg disclose safe harbor assets after she finalizes the employee claims for good.
I wouldnt mind getting just a disclosure of whats behind safe harbor. I can wait another year as long as we find out whats hidden.
Hoping they'll make the distributions on Monday or Tuesday to hide it behind the midterm election news.
I thought they've changed the claim for just base pay and attorney fees? I believe they've dropped the golden parachute claim. Anyway, that attorney seems awfully busy for someone on vacation. The judge needs to penalize her for asking extension to the 10 day stay by lying about her vacation plans.
Isnt the claimants attorney supposed to be on vacation? I think Walrath to strike down their mew claims just based on the attorney lying about her vacation!
I agree it makes no business sense for coop to buy those assets with borrowed cash but it does make sense to purchase them with shares in s4v exchange. This s4v exchange will be the same as the company issuing new shares in an ipo to raise money...instead in a s4v exchange the company is receiving profit producing assets for new shares issued. Company dilutes itself by issuing new shares but gets to grow its business by having bigger future revenue and profit from the gained assets. Having larger profit for future also allows it to use up its $6B NOL faster and hence adding more value back into the company.
Simply put, s4v exchange will allow Coop to grow its earnings faster by 1) receiving higher future revenue and hence higher earnings from the assets it gained, and 2) thereby allowing it to use more of its $6B NOLs faster due to higher future earnings from the gained assets
In return, the old escrow holders also benefits because they are not simply given an arbitrary one time cash payment for their illiquid asset...which may or maynot be true market value at the time. Instead the escrow holders will get Coop stock that would reflect the true market value of its illiquid asset as voted on by the open stock market. Additionally, it will also get to participate in the future growth of Coop as aided by the illiquid assets future earning and the faster usage of the 6B NOLs.
Coop would not be buying below market value. The beauty of a s4v transaction to purchase the assets is that it allows the old estate owner to realize true price discovery of the underlying assets through market valuation of the exchanged shares. This also allows old estate owner to capitalize on future profit income of the exchanged assets through equity ownership through shares of Coop. Additionally this s4v exchange works better for a small company like Coop vs a giant like JPM. If you do a s4v exchange with JPM, its almost like doing a cash transaction because the shares that you will receive will only represent a very small percentage of a giant JPM..this does not allow a true price discovery of your assets because it is diluted inside the massive JPM.
However, when you do a s4v exchange with a small company like JPM, you will be getting a much larger share percentage of the company for your assets. Hence your assets now represents a majority of the value of the Coop and hence you will realize much better price discovery of your assets going forward.
goodie, thats why I think a s4v makes more sense than a leveraged cash buyout. This way, old estate owners can also realize the upside of the assets performing for years to come.
We'll see..maybe you are right and Coop/Wmih already lost the transaction to a higher bidder and hence that is why we are seeing the share price tank over the last few weeks..and hence why we havent heard any news of earnings or boarding of new $65B in business.
LOL, claimant attorney seems awfully busy for someone on vacation :)
Jerry, what security law makes number 2) illegal?
If most of the old estate safe harbored funds return directly to newly merged Coop/Wmih and not to escrow markers, it will be the first evidence of discovery of security fraud. It would mean that old WMIH directors diluted us right before the assets returned. They would have to prove that they had zero knowledge of safe harbored assets returning directly to WMIH.
From that discovery date of fraud (the day old estate safe harbored assets are returned directly to new Coop/WMIH entity eithout compensation to old estate owners) we have 2 years to file the lawsuit.
https://www.gibsondunn.com/u-s-supreme-court-extends-time-to-file-federal-securities-fraud-suits/
That is not true. The Wmih/NSM merger happened this year. All we have to do is sue the old WMIH board of directors for securities fraud for diluting us right before the big payout.
Wow! It looks like employees are dropping the golden parachute claims and settling for guranteed base compensation and vested equity (probably stock grants) and attorney fees. Hopefully this would tally less than $40mil and we can move on with Nov distributions!
Ron, thats not what AZ was suggesting. At this point I do not know if such a fraudulent act has happened but we will soon find out. If it does happen like what AZ was suggesting, I will personally leverage all my personal assets to fund a class action lawsuit against the old WMIH directors. I dont think there is a statute of limitation for securities fraud.
Jerry, if it is only 1) then I think NSM board should be fired for incompetency. Because the merged Coop/WMIH entity is now ladened with loan liabilities that were taken out to fund the buyout/merger. Their balance sheet will look like crap unless they can significantly increase the revenue stream of the merged entity...not by just saving 20% on their existing revenue stream for the next few years.
I really believe there is a number 2) in the works for the remaining unliquidated loan portfolio from the old estate. Maybe Bray is correct in saying that the assets are not from the old estate because they are really a bunch of securitized loans which the old estate happens to own a percentage of the profit stream. A number 2) would cleanly end the old estate bankruptcy by "cashing out" old estate owners of any remaining interests in illiquid assets.
Ron, that still doesnt make sense. If a large amount of cash returns to the newly merged Coop/WMIH, then there will be a lawsuit against the old WMIH board of directors for diluting us at the last minute. They will have to prove in court that they had no knowledge of assets returning to WMIH from safe harbor all those years...good luck with that!
Otherwise, they can be charged with securities fraud for failing their fudiciary duty to maximize value to then current WMIH shareholders before merging with NSM.
The only way this merger makes sense is either..
1) they really merged for the $6B NOLs
or
2) the merged entity will buy the returning assets from old estate with borrowed cash or s4v exchange.
Distro, that still doesnt make sense. The hedgies owned the majority of WMIH. Why would they want to dilute themselves by merging with NSM, right before the big payout? Wouldnt they have waited until after the payout?
I never had any doubt that there is big money accumulated from the securitized loans sitting in safe harbor in the last 10 years. I'm just worried that we are going to be robbed at the last minute when it comes out.
So it is kind of alarming that AZ is now suggesting that all those safe harbored profits accumulated in the last 10 years will be going directly to COOP/WMIH and not to escrow markers.
I suppose it is possible that the hedgies bought most of NSM before they merged it with WMIH, and thus diluting and screwing us little guys from the original estate. I hope this is not the case because it will probably lead to lawsuits and insider trading charges...which would mean the money will be tied up again in the courts for years.
So are you saying that the escrow markers get nothing more than the $40 mil left in WMILT?
That doesnt seem to be logical. Why would all the hedgies agree to merge with NSM if that is the case. Wouldn't they have waited until after the assets returned before merging?
AZ, what percentage of the performing trusts will go to coop/wmih?
Jerry, look at my message number 472443
Remember, numbers are based off 2007 10k so if they are lying sec would be jailing someone.
These numbers should be accurate at end of 2007.
If WMB kept any securitized assets on its books it must only be the ones that they havent packaged and sold off from Jan 2008 to Sept 2008. Otherwise, I suspect they WMB only had 0.025% of the 2.9% profit margin from the 2007 10k numbers for servicing rights.
No, that 2.9 % figure was under their income statement on over $300B. So that means, on over $1.6T of loans that they securatized over the year, by the end of 2007, they owned the 2.9% profit rights on over $300B. Otherwise they cant state that under their income statement.
Jerry, just google 2007 Wamu 10k. You will find that the company claimed a 2.9% interest profit margin on over $300B of loans.
I've always tried to tell the board. You cant simply treat Wamu bankruptcy like others. You are not simply looking at (Assets - Liabilities)
With Wamu you should be looking at (Asset Interest Rate - Liability Interest Rate) * Assets....basically safe harbor rules saved our assess by allowing the loan portfolio to continue performing and not being liquidated at day one of bankruptcy.
JPM never got the securitized profit rights from the assets. They received the principle of the assets plus the interest owed to the liability (i.e. deposit base). That is how FDIC was able to justify giving them WMB for 1.9B.
I've calculated the theoretical max profit from the loan portfolio and it came out to like $145B. However, I do not know what percentage of the loans were paid back early or refinanced in the last 10 years...and I dont know what the put back clauses are on WMB that originated the loans.
That is why I believe Dr A's conservative estimate of $86B is plausible.
Thanks AZ. So you are saying there arent any corporate level taxes applicable to any of the trust returns? The tax liability would be treated as a direct pass through to the escrow holders?
AZ, are there any tax ramifications from WMIIC being dissolved in early 2018 that would require the segregated ABS trusts returning the beneficial interests to escrow markers by 2018 year end? TIA
Well, employees can continue to further delay and keep extending the stay order and prevent the trust from closing shop....Maybe by pressuring everyone else with delays, they may be hoping the judge might petition FDIC to make a one time allowance for them...who knows. I really doubt they can raise this appeal to the supreme court in 21 days. So maybe they are using the delay tactics as a presurring tactic against the trust who may be under pressure to close out before year end.
Judge Mary should have ordered the counsel to bring back proof of her vacation with pictures and receipts. Actually, maybe we should send the judge a petition to issue a fine for lying to the court if at the end of the 21 days the counsel cannot produce such proof.
Thanks UncleBo. Spelled out in red! Awesome! So maybe we can still end this fiasco before year end! I really hope that attorney doesnt come back on the 6th and ask for an additional 9 month stay because she got knocked up during her vacation and need a pregnancy leave!
According to your theory, PIERS cannot be paid until Feb also...because the 21 day stay is past the Nov 1st distribution date. If payment is limited to quaterly distribution dates then escrow could potentially have to wait until May 1st 2019 for first payment.
Thats not true. You may file your tax returns on April 15 but you still need to pay your taxes within the quater when your gains are realized...especially if it is a large windfall. Otherwise, you may be liable for interest payments when you file your return on April 15.
Do you recall if the trust ever released funds outside of the quaterly release dates?
Does anyone know if WMILT can give out distribution anytime after Nov 6 or are they limited to quaterly schedule and thus limited to Feb 1st at the earliest?
Thank you PorkChop. Also, thanks again for updating the board with today's hearing.
Wasnt Hochberg supposed to be in court today? Did he testify anything?
I think the 21 day stay is there to prevent the trust from paying out on Nov 1st. Notice that the attorney originally asked for 30 day stay. What attorney has a month long vacation planned right around the time of potential trial going into this hearing?
Maybe she'll come back in 21 days and ask for a 9 month long stay for maternity leave..."Your Honor, I got impregnated while on vacation and will like to request a 9 month stay for my pregnancy."
Its looking like they will try to delay this into next year to buy more time.