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That post makes no sense to me, sorry.
It's simple.
KBLB patented insertions of their versions of the spider silk genes using Vector XYZ (piggyBAC, or Zinc Fingers, etc).
If Company John Doe renders unrelated DNA into a silkworm via a completely different insertion mechanism (of which there are already many, and many more to come) it won't be covered. It's not hard. Nothing of KBLB's will be violated. It's not a tweak. It's like saying that the transoceanic flights violate the patents of ships. Either way, people get from London to New York, but they're apples and oranges.
Different DNA, different vector, same result in the worm and no POSSIBILITY of an IP fight.
I'm not saying KBLB is behind. I'm not saying there's something more they should be doing on the IP front. There's no action to be taken. I'm saying that if you think that putting spider DNA into silkworms is what KBLB has patented then you're flat wrong. That's not my opinion. That's a fact.
Nobody should avoid getting IP because their afraid of the next big technological innovation. At one point, you have to take a stand. KBLB did that with zinc fingers and their DNA of choice. However, if you go with method A, go through the whole IP procedure, and during the ramp-up someone else comes up with a newer, faster pipeline (I'm not saying this HAS happened, but it could) then there's no IP fight to be had.
These black-and-white indefensibly turned to gray arguments are why I left this board in the first place, but I'm going to try and fight through it since I read all the posts and feel like the scientific viewpoint is critically under appreciated.
KBLB has done what they needed to do. Another company could get to market first with spider silk producing silkworms, violating no patents, and KBLB could be beat. That's fact. I hope it doesn't happen. There's nobody showing signs at the moment. Just like in poker, it's just as important to know how you can lose as it is to know how you can win.
Right? And there's two points in play.
1) We need IP to be taken seriously from a business perspective (protect what you have). This is good.
2) Science IP is easily overtaken as new technology comes out that allows someone to do the same task (unpatentable) with a new tool. Nothing illegal, nothing lawyers can do to stop it. This is bad.
I'm not saying KBLB did anything wrong. They did what they needed to do on that front, and I'm not saying they should have done anything differently.
Recall, I specifically noted that I wasn't calling you out one-on-one. I'm saying this because there are folks on this board that need to know that KBLB's very useful patents (in some ways) are not going to stop competitors from putting spider genes into silkworms. Nobody can stop that.
Again, not for you directly es1, but there is nothing safe about the broad idea that KBLB has, only the exact implementation. Patents won't protect us from anyone but the laziest copycats, and that's the BEST we can do.
Again, I do agree that it's important to have, and not useless. Especially for that point. What I'm saying is that it doesn't protect us from a competitor doing the same task using different and readily available tools. We don't disagree, you're just not seeing (or admitting?) that there's two sides to the same coin.
Please don't misunderstand my point to mean I don't think IP is important. It is. It's just easily circumventable in a field like molecular biology where there are truly hundreds of ways to skin the same cat. We patented the knife. The government might think a sword is too close, but they didn't say anything about a laser.
Let me preface this by saying this is all just my opinion, and not a projection, "insider knowledge", or anything of that ilk. None of my posts are anything but a scientist's idle thoughts. Also, this isn't directed at es1 other than I jumped off this quote.
Wholly agree with you there. The argument of "It's patented so we're safe" is intellectually naive. It's simply not the way science works. You can tweak DNA and get the same protein. You can tweak insertion methods (or just wait a month for a new technology).
I feel many misinterpret your realism as pessimism, and they did that to me too which is why I left this board for so long. Now the bad science is seeping across boards and there's nowhere to have rational discussion without being name-called, so I figured I'd join back up and at least act as a scientist when it comes to discussing this scientific company.
Whispers aren't facts to me. We have (sporadic) research updates from KBLB, and from my vantage point, our competitors are sprinting to meet us. Understand that even with complete obedience to patents, once your research is published it's infinitely easier for someone else to tweak it and run. Scientific patents are VERY specific, and easily circumvented, especially when it comes to gene sequences and techniques.
This is false security at its utmost. Don't rest and don't stop doing DD until KBLB has succeeded. They're not done yet, and their intellectual brain materials are being pursued at a World War Z zombie's pace, not the shuffling meandering kind.
Of course! And I really do hope they're doing something cool over there :)
True, but for KBLBs purposes (as far as I can gather) a text file of As, Ts, Cs, and Gs would do the trick. It would certainly be interesting if they were also looking at the organism level to look at the spinnerets etc., but that would be quite a leap for the group.
EDIT for clarification: This is coming from my molecular background of classical gene editing and insertion, not to be confused with anything KBLB may be up to behind the scenes.
I don't mean to poke holes, but there's absolutely no reason one would have to go to Africa to get the DNA of a spider that is readily available from other sources (ie. other research institutions) unless they're unwilling to share.
Mike,
That's not how paper authorship works in academia. It's not a ranking of importance in all or most cases, especially a Nature paper. I respectfully disagree with your decision that mojo was wrong. He was quite right about Kim's role. He's not meaningless by any stretch, but trust me when I say that the seeds were well sewn by the time that nature paper was published. Kim is not a scientist, especially not a geneticist. He is, however, the reason that the research has any shot of being more than just a lab experiment. He's critical in the business side, but when lay folk try and 'help' scientists with their work, usually it's the scientist just nodding and saying "Good idea! Why didn't I think of that?!" when in fact they're only being polite (as they should be to someone providing capital).
Right, I only meant equal in a truly equal way ie) all the natural variation and imperfections of a wild spider silk, whichever type it may be. We can match, and improve, the technical metrics (strength, elasticity, etc) with some work.
Best of luck, honestly and truly.
We will never, ever create spider silk that is equal to that of spider-spun silk. In fact, that's a silly goal. Engineers tinker to make things better, adaptable, not to mimic. KBLB could create silk with no silkworm protein, sure. That's just a lazy place to stop.
Wow...that's really not the attitude that creates healthy discussion. I have called the CEOs of companies before, it's not a sin. They have never given me any actionable information, but I have redirected investments based on their tone, clarity, and things of that nature. If you've never spoken to Kim, that's fine. However, if your sanguine attitude towards KBLB is based solely on PRs and things we can all see, then it's even more hyperinflated that I thought.
I'm positive on KBLB. I think if you want to make money like mojo trading in and out, great. Perfect. Do it. That's a winning plan. If you want to hold long, like you and I, that's great too (thought admittedly we get paid later, but hopefully more). But there has to be some realism in there! We could get a breakout PR someday, but to me, that's not buying a worm farm. That's not a ramp-up to commercial production. It's a deal on paper with buyers. And frankly, given what I have seen from the exact same pool of information you have seen, I didn't expect to see that this morning.
I think that KBLB is on the path to success. Let's consider today and one year from now. I think that in a year, the PPS will be higher than it is now. I think that in a month, we'll be a lot closer to today's PPS than we will be to 7/29/2014. Why does it have to EXPLODE TO THE MOON1!!!!111? Why can't it have a healthy rise in PPS through building block steps that a company must take. I've been a part of a company that did that and it's amazing! One PR, and the thing went from $0.50 to $30 over the course of about a month. But that was a drug company creating a drug to treat a disease that hadn't had a new treatment in over 50 years. Instant marketability. Spider silk is cool, and has lots of uses beyond just fabrics. Is the market ready for it? We never talk about that here! People throw around names like Nike and car companies...but what are they making with spider silk that isn't just a novelty? Could it make better sportswear? Maybe. Wouldn't Nike need to do EXTENSIVE testing before they agreed to a big purchase? A full scale, spin-enough-for-a-full-shipment run? That will take a lot longer than a week or a month.
The personal, ad hominem attacks are senseless. Asking people to back up their own assertions is not. If I say, and I wouldn't say this, "Bob, I know for a fact that you have drinks with Kim every Wednesday and light cigars with my $100 bills!", you do not have to defend that accusation! Just ignore it, and don't perpetuate it on the board! However, if I say "I think that KBLB is going to be $1/share in the next 3 weeks", it's fair for someone to ask me what information I'm basing that assertion off of. There is absolutely not a shred of evidence that the next PR is going to be the groundbreaker. Hell, they just PR'ed a website upgrade last week. That's about as thin as it gets.
Give KBLB time to grow, do your own DD, and invest was you think is worth the risk. To some, apparently, it's everything. To others, it's worthy of some flip-flop trading. Whatever, who cares how the other guy makes his money? The discussion HERE should be about the company, publicly available information, and the interpretations and predictions from them, WITH SUPPORTING EVIDENCE. Maybe it's just the scientist in me, but the petulance here (and on the "other" board) is so old. It's like 8 year olds on the playground. Two or three posters discussing issues, the rest simply bickering. I'd leave, but sometimes those two or three posters are really interesting to chat with.
GLTA
Taking a break I suppose....
But didn't you see the new website?! It's PPS-tastic!
Patiently waiting, playing the long game. But it's a game. I could lose. I see absolutely no fault in someone trading in out to mitigate future losses, or simply to make some scratch.
There has been a subtle change in tone on the board that I'm happy with lately! Discussions rather than rants. Unfortunately, it's ill-timed as there's not a lot to talk about...maybe tomorrow...or the Monday after...or the Monday after...or never. Whatever, I'm just chilling out quite unrushed, unperturbed, and invested only as much as a complete loss couldn't kill me. Makes life oh so much easier :)
http://globenewswire.com/news-release/2013/07/22/561487/10041196/en/Kraig-Biocraft-Laboratories-Launches-New-Website.html
LANSING, Mich., July 22, 2013 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- Kraig Biocraft Laboratories, Inc. (OTCQB:KBLB) ("Company"), the leading developer of advanced spider silk based fibers, today announced the launch of its entirely new website, www.kraiglabs.com.
"Although we've worked with cutting-edge biotech companies in the past, our whole team was fascinated by the incredible things Kraig Biocraft is achieving in the labs," commented Jonathan Keim, owner of GPGSolutions. "We truly enjoyed working with the Company and being a part of its exciting story."
"As we move toward the commercialization of recombinant spider silks, it is important that we build our band and our image," said Company CEO and founder, Kim K Thompson. "With Jonathan's help, we built a website from the ground up, to better highlight the Company's high-tech foundations and enhance our public image. The new and improved website is also part of our plan to improve communication with prospective partners, customers and our shareholders. We hired GPGSolutions' because of their stellar reputation and their enthusiasm for the project. Their creativity, responsiveness and technical ability worked to produce a platform that better represents our vision and promotes our brand."
Shareholders and interested persons who have not already done so, are invited to subscribe to the Company's email updates in advance of the launch of that program. The sign in button can be found at the bottom of the Investors page of the Company website.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sad Trombone*
Looking sharp! Not to conjecture too much, but that seems like something you'd want to do before you expect lots of new site views. Not a prediction, just a nice Friday night thought.
To add to this point, of which I'm in agreement, the public (and most on this board) can't understand the PNAS paper. So it's definitely not publicity. If I go out and tell someone I've published in ANY journal, let alone PNAS, it won't be bug-all to most folks. "So what, anyone publish on a blog"
Obviously, PNAS isn't a blog, but if getting papers published in peer-reviewed journals meant a thing to the public, scientists would get paid more than athletes. The public has no reason to think that Spiber isn't ahead of KBLB. They have a dress. It's an object they can see, and that Pop-Sci journalists can write about.
This is a point about the difference between public perception (Spiber wins in a landslide) and industrial potential (hopefully KBLB acts fast enough to have an edge).
Kim said that he forewent seeking more financing precisely because of the extra quiet period it would cause, if I recall the last PR clearly. I remember because I found his 'benevolence' irritating if his perception with shareholder impatience made him kill a deal that would have helped the company. Really, I thought that the PPS decline set on by another quiet period would have made deals financially unstable for KBLB to make so they have to raise it (fluff or otherwise) before they can re approach bigger banks from the Big Apple. I wouldn't get MY salsa from there.
I have no incentive to call a spade by any other name. If more people on this board would stop playing games (fun as they may be) then the level of discourse could rise to a useful level. It's not much better on the other board really because it's not discussion. Sharing DD and analyzing as objectively as possible would be ideal, but it's not in human nature to do that online.
So I really just use this MB to try and talk science when I feel we need it (obviously we haven't in months) or if I feel like there's a lot of crazy speculation around some inane detail or PR that has no real meaning. I'm just biding my time.
Or how about people just cover what they think the news of the day is? Obviously on a news-worthiness level, Spiber is ahead of KBLB. They have a 'dress'.
The stuff that matters for making money isn't related to making a dress. You don't sell sexiness or novelty to industry. You sell the best product for the job. I think it's fairly obvious that while there may be spider components in other groups' silk, it's nothing like the ability KBLB has. Now that all being said, there's an obvious level of urgency because in the world of molecular biology, it's not hard to circumvent tech patents because they're inventing new tech every day.
KBLB is not doing anything at the moment that the public should give a crap about. They may be busy beavers behind the scenes, but that's not actionable for the industry, investment, or Pop Sci personnel.
Don't take comments that are simple statements of truth (KBLB mentioned as a blurb) as a personal attack on your convictions. I think KBLB will come out as a big winner in this because no two companies are doing the same thing, with the same end goal. I just realize that there's not anything to talk about while we wade through fluff PRs with no substance. So I comment on what they put out, and what folks on this board flounce around as 'evidence' that KBLB is about to EXPLODE TO THE MOON LOLOLOLOL.
I'm a realist. The internet is hard place for a realist because I'm not a basher, and I don't just pretend KBLB, Ben, and Kim are perfect. I'm a scientist and so I see good science, I invest in it, and I wait. If I don't like what I see, I pull my money out but also leave the board because why would I waste my time posting if I wasn't in it?
The science is good and in 2 years it will be outdated. So the impetus is on Kim to pull the trigger before we're able to do this whole thing more efficiently.
Ben's response time is admirable but if he's not advising Kim that these PRs are worthless, then Kim may as well write his own PRs. Your description of Ben makes him sound redundant anyway.
Recall I'm not asking for PRs that don't exist (fast rollercoaster) but rather I'm asking for PRs worth PRing. If you think this PR isn't fluff I guess we're just on a different planet. It's all tentative and if they never hire anyone you'll be right back here saying, "Well it was only a plan! You can't hold poor Kim accountable for a plan!"
It's bush-league.
The damage is done. Do you really think there's a big difference to the company at this exact point in time if the PPS is 0.06 or 0.08?
Just keep working in the background, be generally more transparent (USE A G-D BLOG) and then PR real news.
Tech is great, implications are strong, and nothing has changed my opinion of the company's future value but I'd can Ben like last years peaches. Have some guts and realize that you can't prop the PPS on fluff so you may as well just do science and work at your science's pace.
PR events, stop with the plans.
PR the hire, not the plan to hire. It's literally useless information. I think the hires themselves are fine PRs (maybe, only if their someone of note for the position).
This isn't even a carrot. This is a poorly boiled brussel sprout. I'd rather not hear anything from KBLB for a year and then get 1 good PR rather than go back to the garbage-a-week PR system.
Didn't Kim ever watch Bambi?! If you don't have anything () to say, don't say anything at all. What a HS PR.
elichen
Monday, July 01, 2013 6:19:25 PM
Re: MU_Redskin1 post# 59990
One of the things Ben said in our phone conversation today was that at the big event where KBLB had a booth, some ladies came over who design the interior of major cars and they said it would be great to have spider silk fabric to use in the interiors!
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=615641011790247&set=a.456449604376056.98921.367116489976035&type=1
Just posted by IFLS, with a link to the PNAS paper inside.
I don't deny that that's what was said, but that's funny biologically.
DNA gets transcribed with 100% fidelity (usually) into mRNA by all living things. Humans then capture that mRNA, and chemically reverse-transcribe mRNA into cDNA. cDNA~gDNA (minus the part of the genome that doesn't code for proteins, introns, etc). The shear act of removing the non-protein coding DNA (most of which KBLB is not interested in anyhow) would then make it able to be patented.
It'd be like if you robbed a bank and the bag of money had the exploding dye in there and the cops said, "HEY, you can't take that!" and then you took out the exploding dye and they were like, "Oh, that's fine now."
This is why politicians need better science advisors (or need to listen more).
If the government says that cDNA is still ripe for the picking, all the better for us. That (plus a little on/off switch DNA at the beginning) is all we need.
/This is a simplification, and there are biological subtleties that are not worth getting into on a stock board.
If you give me an email, I can get you the PDF. #AcademiaPerks
Is that a serious question? You've been around long enough to have read the PNAS paper (or at least ample summaries) and that's years-old tech now. We're still waiting on Big Red results.
The PNAS paper was akin to first steps. Cool new tech, interesting fiber qualities, and sexy field. Big Red results are a bit more exciting (to me at least) because BR red represents KBLB's first big-boy steps. They knew what they were doing, they had testable predictions about fiber mechanics, and they can test them.
Hopefully after KBLB becomes profitable they eschew the academic route of publishing their (comparable) results in peer-reviewed journals (which take lots of time). A slightly modified silk based off on an existing tech with no new tweaks could be tested by a third party and released as a PR. The publications are only really useful for big discoveries, new tech, or periodic summaries. Definitely have to academically publish novel things though, much to most's chagrin, due to time.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=tomorrow+in+review
"The Daily Reckoning"