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Yeah, it's not just the bashing, especially not the one we're talking about, who's too obvious to be taken seriously anyway. It's mostly the lack of confidence, the sell orders under 3c being taken out, people selling millions, no buys over 5c, etc. Nobody would sell this low if there was a PROVEN product...
I feel like beating a dead horse here saying this again and again but if the company released whatever info they had on the prototype and proved they actually have a product that is close to completion these huge drops would not be possible and we would be trading at a significantly higher level. Sure, bashers could claim it won't sell well or won't be efficient or whatever and they will but there is a huge difference between small things like that and no product at all which is what they are claiming now. And really we have no way to prove them wrong at the moment. Are you listening Wanderport? Tell us what the deal is, not that things are going great, any day now, etc etc, just where things are with the prototype TODAY, nothing more, nothing less.
A little dangerous to say that. If it doesn't happen the bashers and MMs will have their way with the stock again.
Wish the company would actually release a PR that focused only on the state of the prototype. Even if it will take a bit longer, tell us exactly what stage it is in, what the problems are and what is being done to get around them. Don't even need any deadlines or specific details that could be stolen. A photo would be great too. Some efficiency estimates would really be great but if they aren't available yet at least tell us it works heating water. Something, anything... We should have had this kind of stuff a long long time ago really.
Lol nice! Not only he has an agenda but he doesn't even respect the board enough to be a little subtle about it, get separate accounts or something. Come on, put a little effort into it...
Lol you must be a really really nice guy to spend all this time and effort with all the posts trying to save people from this evil stock. Most other people who had no interest in a stock because they thought it was bad news would just move on. It's good to see there are still nice thoughtful people out there.
That isn't fact, it's just your opinion. They may not have provided proof of progress but according to the PRs they certainly made progress. Yes it was slow but they are definitely closer to a finished product than they were a year ago. At least according to them. Also, waiting for those 400 mil shares to be available won't help them any if every 5 mil sold drops it 20%. Having a working prototype would put many many times more money in their pockets. Really, haven't seen bashing so obvious in a very long time... They say it's a good sign for a stock.
Either they're giving it one last whack before things take off or things are bad and someone knows something... I still think a PR about the prototype would put an end to all this.
Good post, agree.
It is interesting that some become very concerned for their fellow traders and try so hard to keep them from staying in a bad stock exactly as the pps shows some weakness.
With meaningful news we'll see .10 no problem pretty soon. But without, no way... I'm sure they'll put out something by the end of the month. Hopefully it's good. Should be, it's been a while since they ordered the parts.
Come on Robert, throw us a bone, could really use it right now... Sometimes it's ok to sizzle the steak a bit.
I'm not sure that they have 100% firm signed contracts. If they do the manufacturers would just be aware that there is a chance it will never happen but it doesn't mean they would only sign an agreement of any kind on a 100% finished product. I don't think it's that unusual for a manufacturer to say when you have a product in a year or so we'll be happy to build it for you.
As far as waiting until his shares become available that bothers me too. But honestly from his point of view I'm sure the pps would be higher by that time if they do release the prototype and move ahead with production than if they don't. So I can't see how he would benefit from holding it back. Honestly speaking the state the stock is in now no way could someone unload any significant number of shares, it's only held up by the fact there are no sellers but there aren't any buyers either. So if his shares become available tomorrow he can't really sell anything. Once they're in production it's guaranteed there will be a lot more buying going on and he'll be able to unload more without a crash if he wants to.
At this point I really think they're just behind where they thought/hoped they would be. It's a tiny company, not a lot of experience, lots of parts to get and test etc... Anyway they can't stay quiet much longer, April is over, I'm sure we'll get some sort of update soon.
Exactly, once the prototype is out and proven to be a very competitive product there is very little risk left in the stock. There aren't any complex trials like there are for medical stuff and finding someone to manufacture that kind of hardware, regardless of the volume they are looking for, won't be hard at all. It's technically already done for most of the parts. So even though there may be delays (given their track record so far it's almost a given...) it will definitely be worth investing in, and far before the first sales figures come in. If anything that may be when it starts to fall again after the initial hype is over.
Also, it's funny how whenever the pps dips people start hammering it even further in a more aggressive way than normal. That said I do agree that they kept us in the dark about the product and have taken forever. But if anyone has held this for a few months you'd have to be crazy to sell now instead of waiting a couple more weeks.
Any guesses on the reason for a drop after what seemed like a good quarter? Sell the news?
Seems like good value right now...
There was no mention at all of any bad news so I would assume pole is shorter :). They should release the prototype within a month at most. But then there's testing... Finalizing details for production... Details for sales... maybe marketing, certifications, finding financing for it all... In theory all that stuff is mostly figured out but who knows. Bottom line is by the time the first sales figures come in Robert's shares will be available for sure.
Lol it's not about what you find in there to tear them up. It's about what you DON'T find in there. Like dates and specs and actual info.
That said I do admit it sounds good. Wasn't planning on selling anyway and that makes me feel even better. Maybe have some cash ready for right after they actually do release some facts.
What i meant was because they are a penny lets assume they don't owe us and can't be held accountable. My bad, wording wasn't clear.
The point of PRing stuff before the BIG release is so that we take off from .25 not from .05. That could make a huge huge difference. People trying to double their money will sell at .50 not at .10. And there isn't even an obvious downside to PRing more at this stage.
I didn't say they owe us anything. Although technically companies are supposed to do their best to increase value for shareholders etc etc. But lets assume this is a penny stock, not a "proper" company and it's my gamble to put money in it, no way to hold them accountable. So it's not that they owe us, it's about what we DO have compared with what we COULD have. If they could increase our value by putting out the right PRs why not do it? Since they are a public company they obviously needed investors at some point. They may need us again when they need money for production, marketing, expansion, etc etc.
If, like you said, they could put out a PR with a picture and a couple of ballpark efficiency estimates why not do that? Yes, the flippers will take it from .15 where it will go, back to .10, pretty big drop. But we're still over .05. There is no way more and bigger investors would not come in if they released more info about the product. Right now the company looks squeaky clean, retiring shares, no dilution, reporting etc etc, but where's the product? The stock would move really fast once the big money comes in. They haven't yet or we would know. Showing pictures and coming up with numbers would not give absolute guarantees of anything but they would go a long way towards making people more confident. I know I would be. Yes, there are some people who have a lot of faith and never need proof but there are also enough (especially the bigger fish) that would appreciate more info on the product status and more proof it's real. Just IMHO...
What is the point of PRing stuff about the PRODUCT, including difficulties and what they are doing to overcome them? I don't know, how about investor confidence? Transparency is rarely a bad thing. The truth is they did a poor job informing us about the product itself. The business in general, yeah, they had PRs. The heater itself honestly we don't know a whole lot more about it than we did a year ago. And a year is a long time. They were "very excited" about it a year ago, it's always "almost there". If they tell me why I need to wait another 3 years to make a couple of million I absolutely will, I got time. But for a penny stock with only one product that everything relies on, they should tell us a LOT more about it.
1. Yes, this is IMO IMO IMO...
2. Been here over a year, never sold a single share.
It is true that before everything is 100% production ready there will be a fair amount of testing to be done but I really think that not releasing anything until everything is completely ready would be a huge mistake. At the rate they move that could take weeks, maybe even months worst case scenario. By then the pps won't be pretty. I think having a (almost production spec) prototype that works and heats water, even with no numbers and no testing is huge news worthy of release.
On one hand I do agree that tweaking is a little different from inventing. But on the other hand I'm fairly sure they had all the parts put together in one location before. It would make no sense to work on half the parts in one place and the other half in another. Maybe in the initial stages of developing individual components yes but by now not so much. Once you have a full specification exact enough to order all the parts I would assume they have that because they put very similar parts together before and they worked well together. I guess we'll see...
They have to still be at least a little bit in the inventing and tweaking stage, otherwise with all the parts on the table how long does it take to screw them together... Even running it to get some numbers wouldn't take more than a day.
Lol not a month, no way. But in the long run I'm hoping it happens. Could see a quarter by the end of the year best case scenario, really doubt anything more.
Yeah I thought maybe someone knows something. But the buy isn't that huge. Think it's just no sellers around 5 at all... hope we'll be able to say that about .25 and then 1.0 soon...
Awesome. Nice jump. Hopefully just a small taste of how fast this can move.
This week? And how do you know?
Lol. I hope it is. I'd prefer a small update to no news at all in case they aren't done with the prototype.
I wonder if we get news this week. This time they actually said April in the PR so I would guess they will put out something, no matter how small. They did put out something at the end of March even though they had only promised that unofficially...
They've backed themselves into a corner a little bit at this point. And we helped a lot by being impatient and pushing them. If they release a "wah wah" PR it's bad since they did it so many times before. Bad news are obviously bad. No news are bad once April ends. Delays are bad regardless how promising they say things are... Pretty much anything other than good, significant news and on time will cause people to be unhappy. And maybe sell. Although at this point it seems like the investors left are pretty strong.
Looks like next week is the big week. Assuming they stick to the promise of something coming out in April.
Probably a bit of investor fatigue too, a case of crying wolf too many times... But I'm 99% sure by the end of the month we get something we can really sink our teeth into. Hopefully things start moving a little faster with testing, production and all that stuff afterwards. Either way we should see a pretty good increase in the pps pretty soon.
They aren't useless numbers. Like I said before, there are plenty of efficiency claims for plenty of products that can be PROVEN to be close to 100% efficient, based on physics, completely independent of whatever technology they happen to use. If that is the case the WDRP heater will not be SIGNIFICANTLY more efficient. And they haven't claimed it will be, at least not recently. It will still most likely be a great product, definitely worth investing in. But most people would invest very differently depending on whether we are talking about a product that is merely competitive and innovative rather than talking about something that is completely revolutionary and far more efficient than existing solutions. So I definitely think it's worth talking about, especially since they haven't put out any efficiency ball-park numbers at all in the past few months while they were playing with various prototypes.
It is true that a convection oven is less efficient at transferring heat then a traditional water heater but that still doesn't make the traditional heater similar to the microwave one. It still only comes in direct contact with a tiny tiny part of the water molecules (just like the hot air in an oven comes in contact with a tiny percentage of turkey molecules), where the microwave ovens and heaters transfer energy to all molecules at the same time. But yes, it is less wasteful since the heater element is right in the middle and in direct contact.
It is because the convection oven has lots and lots of heat left in it after it is used. It also loses a lot more to the surrounding than a microwave does. Neither of those things is true for a conventional electric water heater, or at least a lot less true.
Agree 100%.
If this thing is just as efficient as a good existing electrical tankless heater when it comes to watt hours we're still in really good shape. Possible advantages:
- Lower cost to buy (and maybe even to install)
- Less scaling + Less corrosion = longer life and less maintenance
- Faster hot water once you switch it on
- Less waste in a heating element left hot once hot water turned off
- Smaller size
- New, cool (green?) technology (same people who buy hybrids even though they don't really save money at the end of the day)
Without any actual efficiency improvement these advantages are enough to make them a huge player in the market.
And even without any of these advantages, assuming that it isn't much better in any way at all than a good traditional heater, the world market is still so huge that even a tiny slice of it would be really serious dough.
And it is technically possible that people like me who doubt the overall electric efficiency advantage over an existing model are missing something to do with the way existing models operate, something to do with safety or regulations or extending lifespan or something like that which might make them less efficient in every day operation that the laws of physics say they should be. That said, heating stuff faster, through an increased surface area or by bombarding molecules directly (microwaves) rather than contact doesn't improve efficiency and the final energy cost, just the speed. Hopefully we get a set of specs soon and then we can really start arguing :)
Yes, I agree with that. In cases where the hot water gets turned on and off repeatedly the microwave heater would have an advantage for sure because of its faster speed at the start and less loss through overheated contact elements at the end. However, if you were to let water go through both the heaters for a long amount of time it is hard to see how the microwave one would be far more efficient since in this case a traditional heater would waste hardly any heat/energy.
That isn't a very good example because:
Either the small pan is smaller than the size of the heating element and then a lot of the heat just goes past it and up into the air from the parts of the heater that aren't covered by the pan.
Or... The heating element is small enough to where it is completely covered by the small pan. And in this case the larger pan gets no advantage because it has the same contact patch with the heater and doesn't get any advantage out of being wide. If anything there will be more metal to heat up initially and part of the metal won't be in contact with the heater, since it is wide.
In either case the smaller pan has more losses to the outside (in the first case a lot more losses) which is not the case with electrical water heaters, either microwave or electric, which is the main reason the example doesn't really apply.
Anyway, honestly it's not very productive to argue about whether heating a substance by the same amount faster uses less energy than doing it slower. It's a law of physics, it will not change, ever.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/heat-work-energy-d_292.html
this does a pretty good job of explaining it.
No, bigger surface area will "suck" more heat out of your device in the same amount of time. Like the radiator in a car is far more efficient at sucking heat out of the engine than if air was just going around the engine alone because all the fins give it a far bigger surface area. In this case a heater that heats the "flattened" water would need more amps. With the same voltage that means more watts per second. Fewer second, more watts per second means the same amount of watt hours in the end. There is a certain fixed amount of energy needed to increase the temperature of a gallon of water by one degree and it is not affected in any way by the time taken to do this.
The time taken will be less but the energy needed will be identical. If we talk number of watts used there is no difference between a gallon of water that has been heated by 20 degrees while in a compact container and a gallon that has been heated by 20 degrees while flattened out. One will be faster but the cost will be the same.
That's oversimplifying things a bit as far as a water heater goes of course but still...