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Pay $1.88 Bil and get $29 Bil in cash back. Now that's a bargain!
Questions for the entire board with reference to the Corporate structure contained in post #404754.
In this structure from the P&AA, there were over 30 NON-BANKING SUBSIDIARIES owned solely by the Holding Company(WMI). My questions are.....
(1) What business were these subs engaged in prior to seizure ???
(2) Were they seized by the FDIC and are they still operating???
(3) Did they have any assets and what were/are they worth ???
(3.1a) Are we saying these non-banking subs solely owned by the holding company held/hold no assets and were/are completely worthless ????????????
Questions for the entire board with reference to the Corporate structure contained in post #404754.
In this structure from the P&AA, there were over 30 NON-BANKING SUBSIDIARIES owned solely by the Holding Company(WMI). My questions are.....
(1) What business were these subs engaged in???
(2) Were they seized by the FDIC and are they still operating???
(3) Did they have any assets and what were/are they worth???
(3.1a) Or are we saying these non-banking subs solely owned by the holding company were/are completely worthless ????????????
Firstly...there needs to be an definitive identification of assets that were wholly owned by WMI(HC). These assets must then be properly valued (market not book value) and the proceeds returned to WMILT.
The assets in which WMI had partial ownership or held an interest in with WMB or its Subs will definitely be more challenging to resolve.
They had "LIMITED" access, which essentially meant JPM allowed them to view what they felt was sufficient. During many instances in the bankruptcy case crucial documents were not made available or their whereabouts were "UNKNOWN", leaving many issues unresolvable or unanswered.
They are basically saying all documents (including those for non-banking subs) are bank related and since we bought the bank they're OURS!!!
LT distribution for escrows are 75% to preferreds/ 25% to commons. Preferreds are made up of Cayman trust preferreds $4 Bil/ Wampq $3Bil/ Wamkq $500 Mil for a total of $7.5 Bil. For every $100 Mil that comes back to escrow, preferreds get $75 Mil and Commons get $25 Mil. The $75 Mil preferreds get will be divided as follows: Cayman Trust Prefs $40 Mil/ Wampq $30 Mil/ Wamkq $5 Mil ie Wampq gets $10 and Wamkq gets $0.25 for every $100 Mil that comes back to escrows.
The 2.5% payment to WMIH from LT comes out of the Commons 25% share i believe.
This is in essence the chart I was referring to, although I have seen alternative variations to this version. Now there needs to be clarity as to what value/assets (if any) these non-banking subsidiaries possessed pre-seizure and subsequently post-seizure. This needs to be done because IMO JPM seized everything they could get their hands on with the blessing of Sheila's FDIC, including assets of the holding company, WMI.
This vital info has not been forthcoming from either the FDIC or JPM who now possesses these records which they clearly have no authority to do (details of non banking assets owned by WMI) . During the bankruptcy they showed no intention of providing this info and continue to do this even today. The same applies to the FDIC, in whom I place no trust whatsoever to be forthcoming.
Basing my opinions on the pre-seizure holdings/value of WMI I am inclined to believe that assets are being held by the FDIC-R. The burning question is what are they worth today now that the real estate market has seen a revival of sorts.
This however does not mean that any of the proceeds they gain from the sale/appreciation of any assets will find it's way back to LT if they have their way. There is a long line of hands waiting for any cash that surfaces here in the form of pre-seizure Bondholders($25 Bil) and Deutsche Bank($13 Bil).
Is the corporate structure you are referring to akin to the one in post #404736 by iPrelude? If so I can assure you this is a basic representation, usually used to simplify the presentation of the pre-seizure structure of WMI. I have personally seen many variations of this structure over the past 6 years and I can assure you that this representation is not fully indicative of how WMI was "set-up" in actuality. I will go as far to say it was in some ways just as or even more convoluted than this present case.
The FDIC must first fully unravel this complex "web" of intertwining companies and their vast network of subsidiaries. They must then denote exactly what was "owned" by WMB(assets sold to JPM and those currently in their possession???) and WMI respectively(assets that were under the direct control of the holding company). I can assure you that based on those structures presented, all assets were "NOT" under the direct control or the purview of WMB!!! It is then and ONLY then when these burning issues are fully resolved will I make a final pronouncement on the fate of my/our much maligned escrow placeholders.
Until then I will continue monitor the progress or lack thereof with regard to my shares in WMIH.
If my consecutive posts are taken in context together, as a whole you will get the point i'm trying to make. I am not saying that JPM desires to become the "successor in interest" but I am implying that due to the ambiguity ie lack of detail of the PAA, taken with subsequent litigation (DOJ investigation) there are still many unanswered questions that still need to be answered!!! Just to name one, the PAA does not list the destination of many assets that were seized by the FDIC(curiously missing section 3.1A) and where they are currently being held and by whom exactly. All these anomalies must be corrected before "ANYONE" can make any definitive pronouncements as to the direction this case will take. That's all i'm saying.
Words i find appropriate to describe the P&AA between JPM and the FDIC.... Ambiguous, Convoluted, Inconclusive, Inconsistent, Fraud......etc etc. This document would never survive scrutiny in any court of law if it was not crafted by the FDIC ie the federal government.
"The term successor in interest means a successor to another's interest in property, especially a successor in ownership of a business that is carried on and controlled substantially as it was before the transfer"
"No Acknowledgement or Admission: Nothing in either this agreement or the DOJ Agreement shall constitute an admission or imply that JPM or any of its subsidiaries or affiliates became successor-in-interest to Washington Mutual Bank, Wamu Capital Corp., Long Beach Securities Corp., Wamu Asset Acceptance Corp., or assumed any particular liability of Washington Mutual Bank, Wamu Capital Corp., Long Beach Securities Corp., Wamu Asset Acceptance Corp., when JPM purchased the assets and assumed certain liabilities of WMB pursuant to the P&A Agreement date Sept 25, 2008 between JPM and FDIC in its corporate capacity and its capacity as receiver for WMB"
www.justice.gov/iso/opa/resources/51720131119202421482972.pdf
For those who purport that the P&AA with JPM is a done deal. There are too many open ended questions yet to be answered!!!
(credit to Deekshant's sticky post)
While I understand and AGREE with your points here, the facts are that this case is anything but your typical seizure. I challenge you to name one case that mirrors this one in terms of its size, circumstances surrounding and manner of the FDIC intervention. Please enlighten me !!!
With that said, I am in no way endorsing the figures being quoted here but I do believe some returns will be available at some point.
I read somewhere that the total is $28.4 Billion. Is this amount correct?
Can someone remind me how much are WMB Sr Bonds owed to be made whole?
Unless someone here is privy to all the details of this case from an insider's perspective...all one can do is speculate sir !!!
BTW...my post was based on at least one FACTUAL statement he did make.
Quote from David West's post...."Several posters are adamant the escrow shares are relatively worthless, and base their analysis on all “open” court documents filed".
Clearly to maintain the "ruse" in this case no value other than what was to be distributed to creditors could be made public in the plan (POR V6 / 7).
This same tactic was used in the KMART case to eliminate equity, after which "substantial value" was revealed in the form of its Real Estate assets. These assets were valued at their purchase prices and were way undervalued during the bankruptcy proceedings. This was discovered early on by the Hedge fund ESL Investments controlled by Edward Lampert and the rest is history.
"It was servicing for itself and other banks loans totaling $689.7 billion, of which $442.7 were for other banks." referring to WMB.
Servicing rights does not automatically mean ownership of same.
How many of Wamu's 2239 branches did they own the real estate on which it was situated?
So i lend 10 people $10 each of "MY OWN" money($100 total) and they agree to pay me $10 interest (should collect $200).
Later 5 people(exaggerated) don't pay me so I lose $50 of my principle and $50 in potential interest($100) but I can still collect $100 from my five remaining borrowers($50 principle + $50 interest)and could possibly recoup some of my losses from those 5 that defaulted($10-$20).
Later Mr. FDICk swoops in to sell "MY MONEY" to JPMofo for $1.88.
Now multiply that by Billions.
As for the billions in real estate...even when a mortgagee defaults, the property reverts to the bank which it can then resell because there is still some value. Who holds these defaulted/unsold properties and what are they worth now since values in many areas have rebounded to varying degrees since 2008???
NEGATIVE GOODWILL MUCH
I am confused !!!! When a homeowner defaults, do they get to keep the property they didn't pay for or does the bank reacquire it which it can then resell?????? Some value is lost not all of it. Last I checked property values in many areas have rebounded since those dark days. So the question is....who owns/holds those properties now and what are they worth today???
Two questions:
(1) How could the SNH's have been after the Nols of the Newco as some contend when they would have been lost once the Newco went private triggering the "change of ownership" clause?
(2)For arguments sake, lets say there are Billions in assets hidden and the SNH's plan was successful and they gained control of the Newco by remaining an impaired class via Piers. How would those assets have been treated and who would they be assigned/gifted to?
This scenario seems similar to what happened with KMART.
I am a realist when it comes to any value that may return to my escrow shares, so I take "every" post here as what it really is....SPECULATION !!!!! With that said, is it really beyond the realm of belief that there are indeed assets unaccounted for in this case?
I mean, with all the apparent malfeasance and blatant unethical behavior by the FDIC, JPM/Debtors and the SNH's, it really isn't that hard to believe that an asset "coup" was the plan all along. I would never take a dismissive view when it comes to the greed of the super rich.
Almost all of the evidence presented here paints a picture that there is nothing left. To those who have been here since 2008 (including myself)knows deep down that this doesn't smell right or add up in any possible scenario and we're left with this inane feeling about this case.
It is a fact that the SNH's were going to continue going down to each class to get paid until all the money was gone. Are we then to assume they were that intent on eliminating equity just to gain control of WMIH and it's Nol's? Then wouldn't the majority of the Nol value been lost due to the triggering of the "change in ownership" clause when WMIH was privatized??? What are we missing here?
I am sure there are examples of other cases where equity has been shafted as well as where they got wind of the "plan" and were able to retain value for equity. I am also sure none of those cases were of the magnitude of this case and involved such high profile entities. Again with the possibility of such a huge windfall at stake I am convinced that this saga is far from being over. All we can do is sit back and try to enjoy the ride if that's at all possible. I could go on and on about the perceived irregularities in this case but those will be addressed at another time.
ps...this is what boredom at work at 3am leads to.
Repost:
Could anyone weigh in on the significance, if any of these two quotes as to their relevance to WMILT? (quotes are from deekshant's sticky post #402890)
"No Acknowledgement or Admission: Nothing in either this agreement or the DOJ Agreement shall constitute an admission or imply that JPM or any of its subsidiaries or affiliates became successor-in-interest to Washington Mutual Bank, Wamu Capital Corp., Long Beach Securities Corp., Wamu Asset Acceptance Corp., or assumed any particular liability of Washington Mutual Bank, Wamu Capital Corp., Long Beach Securities Corp., Wamu Asset Acceptance Corp., when JPM purchased the assets and assumed certain liabilities of WMB pursuant to the P&A Agreement date Sept 25, 2008 between JPM and FDIC in its corporate capacity and its capacity as receiver for WMB"
www.justice.gov/iso/opa/resources/51720131119202421482972.pdf
and
“Certain FDIC Claims not released. The FDIC, in any capacity, shall not release, and expressly preserves fully and to the same extent as if the Agreement had not been executed (provided, that this provision shall not be construed as an acknowledgment that any such claims or causes of action exist or are valid):
a) any claims or causes of action against JPMC or any other person or entity for liability, if any, incurred as a maker, endorser or guarantor of any promissory note or indebtedness payable or owed by them to the FDIC, any financial institutions in receivership, other financial institutions, or any other person or entity, including without limitation any claims acquired by FDIC as successor in interest to any financial institutions in receivership or any person or entity other than financial institutions in receivership, excluding for avoidance of doubt any claims expressly released in the Agreement;
I have my opinions but I would appreciate other views also. Thanks
Could anyone weigh in on the significance, if any of these two quotes as to their relevance to WMILT? (quotes are from deekshant's sticky post #402890)
"No Acknowledgement or Admission: Nothing in either this agreement or the DOJ Agreement shall constitute an admission or imply that JPM or any of its subsidiaries or affiliates became successor-in-interest to Washington Mutual Bank, Wamu Capital Corp., Long Beach Securities Corp., Wamu Asset Acceptance Corp., or assumed any particular liability of Washington Mutual Bank, Wamu Capital Corp., Long Beach Securities Corp., Wamu Asset Acceptance Corp., when JPM purchased the assets and assumed certain liabilities of WMB pursuant to the P&A Agreement date Sept 25, 2008 between JPM and FDIC in its corporate capacity and its capacity as receiver for WMB"
www.justice.gov/iso/opa/resources/51720131119202421482972.pdf
and
“Certain FDIC Claims not released. The FDIC, in any capacity, shall not release, and expressly preserves fully and to the same extent as if the Agreement had not been executed (provided, that this provision shall not be construed as an acknowledgment that any such claims or causes of action exist or are valid):
a) any claims or causes of action against JPMC or any other person or entity for liability, if any, incurred as a maker, endorser or guarantor of any promissory note or indebtedness payable or owed by them to the FDIC, any financial institutions in receivership, other financial institutions, or any other person or entity, including without limitation any claims acquired by FDIC as successor in interest to any financial institutions in receivership or any person or entity other than financial institutions in receivership, excluding for avoidance of doubt any claims expressly released in the Agreement;
I have my opinions but I would appreciate other views also. Thanks
The evidence is there that GS was NSS Wamu while they were tasked with finding a buyer/investor for the company. The lack of impetus on the lawyers to shine a light on them leads to even more questions as to WHY they aren't?
Can someone confirm that the "Cayman" Trust Preferred shares were also lumped in with our escrows? I believe they were about $4 Bil in value if I remember correctly.
The way this whole saga played out I wont even try to guess how this will turn out. It does look hopeful for some kind of return to escrows. I mean, $300 Bil does not just go poof into thin air!!! Where the remains of it ends up is the real question here.
I agree with almost everything you said with the exception of the Nols. I do believe the Nols will be sacrificed in whole or in part to utilize the less restrictive Ordinary Loss(OL) benefit instead. JMO!
PMS !!!!
regarding your message about streaming data plus level 2 free trial .
please sign me up for the 30 day trial of the ultimate trader plus level 2 package. thank you
Exactly! I've learned at least one thing over the last 3 years and it's that u can count on the $$GREED$ of the major players here.
"They" can try all they like....I dont scare easily!!!
Whats amazing to me is that this company has loads of Cash, is debt free, has billions in tax breaks and lastly...is not a scam stock and people are still complaining??? Ive seen many stocks with NOTHING run to ridiculous prices based on rumour/fluff.
Leave if u want...i'll be here for the run, whenever it comes.
I am a non US holder of wampq and just got my 13 page ballot yesterday. My broker Etrade told me to fax my ballot in when completed. Does this mean the whole document ie all 13 pages or just page six(6) of the ballot? Thanks
With or without dimeq being classed as equity, the total shares issued will not exceed 200 mil as stated in the DS. Commons portion in newco just gets smaller.
That would be great once this issue is addressed in said letter.
Wouldnt it be more prudent to simply email parker or ed to provide some clarification of the issue? It's not material npi since its stated in the current DS for everyone to read. I believe this would be the best avenue for an answer rather than speculating.
maybe im misreading your post but are you suggesting that if dime is ruled as class 21 that this "influx" of new shares would precipitate the loss of the $5.4 bil nol???? as i see it a TOTAL of 200 mil of newco shares will be issued irregardless of the dime ruling. as i see it all that changes is that percentage owned by existing commons will be reduced from 30% to anywhere between 10-15%....thus preserving the $5.4 bil tax benefit for the newco.
Has anyone considered the potential impact on the unrestricted NOLs that classifying Dime as equity will have??? It is being suggested that $5.4 bil in unrestricted Nol($2 bil asset) could be lost due to the vicarious wording of the new plan as it relates to sect. 382 of the tax code. Is this the avenue for rosen $hite to screw us and the EC one last time?????