Register for free to join our community of investors and share your ideas. You will also get access to streaming quotes, interactive charts, trades, portfolio, live options flow and more tools.
Register for free to join our community of investors and share your ideas. You will also get access to streaming quotes, interactive charts, trades, portfolio, live options flow and more tools.
To single out both AZ and LG only on this issue is disingenuous. Everyone on this board has different views and I can assure you that we ALL have modified or altered our theories based the stunning revelations made within the last few months. I can assure you that 100% of us, including yourself and bk have different viewpoints now, than those we started off with in 2014. The difference is most here don't post them for public scrutiny or ridicule.
"although bks has links to prove all the assets have been sold"
one small correction fred...........
courtesy of ReikoBlack's post #428076
"Page 6 - Transfer WMI Inv short term securities to WMI (223,152,300)"
http://www.wmitrust.com/wmitrust/document/8817600120525000000000002
Not all securities were liquidated as per the WMILT !!!
"the FDIC, utilizing the P&AA document will ensure that JPM eventually pays "fair value" (book value as quoted numerously within it) for the "Assets" they acquired from WMB and these proceeds would be used to pay bondholders and now Deutsche (possibly)."
That's exactly what I said and at no time ever claimed that any of that payment would go to the LT....as quoted above quite clearly.
No problem. It is sad that civility, whether in person or more so, online seems to be a lost trait these days when people disagree on a topic.
I made an assumption without reading AZ's very next post where he made it abundantly clear that the docs indicate that the former WMIIC assets belong to the WMILT (original debtors) and 100% equity in WMIIC belongs to WMIHC (newco). The newco is indeed only due 2.5% of any assets returned.
How I'm reading this is that any assets formerly held by WMIIC would be returned directly to the newco, WMIHC and not the original debtors estate, WMILT???
IMO this is how it was all set up to be settled eventually from the onset...the FDIC, utilizing the P&AA document will ensure that JPM eventually pays "fair value" (book value as quoted numerously within it) for the "Assets" they acquired from WMB and these proceeds would be used to pay bondholders and now Deutsche (possibly). The WMI "assets" that were transferred along with the banking "Assets" to JPM will be returned to the LT for distribution/sale and the proceeds apportioned out to the various ESC-shareholders.
Actually they paid nothing for WAMU!!! Upon the purchase they gained approx. $2 Billion in negative good will. They were technically paid to "purchase" WAMU.
That is your opinion or interpretation of this case... not fact. Since 2008 we have experienced nothing but dishonesty from all parties involved, so am I to now blindly take their clearly crafted words verbatim or rather try to decipher their true intentions. I choose the latter and will continue to do so until I am proven wrong, which by the way I do not believe I am.
"hotmeat, the source of new 'facts are not real..."
I beg to differ BK....the plethora of redacted info in this case are indeed facts but unfortunately for us it's classified as "work product".
If you were actually here back then and was pondering what equities to sell, buy or retain then you would have seen that Piers did indeed fall to just above $1.00 and wouldn't be making such statements. I was and i chose to invest heavily in PQ's and am very happy i did.
I have no problem with you accepting the "facts" presented in filings for public view but what about the additional "facts" that were not divulged to the public? Could this additional info not have an impact or alter the current direction of this case? The "fact" is it can and as more info becomes available, it can either bolster your premise or mine positively or negatively.
No one is infallible!
I have always felt that WMI utilized their profits by reinvesting it into Tier 1 mortgages where the chances of defaults were slim to none. This i also believe was the reason they had such a liquidity crisis which forced them to accept the TPG capital injection. Management were already in the process of resolving this issue before the seizure with the $20 Bil WMB capitalization plan emailed to the FDIC/OTS.
Remember the FDIC did not provide an asset list of what was "sold" to JPM, so basically the P&AA is of no use in determining what exactly was transferred. This is the first and biggest hurdle in answering your question, in addition to the majority of said document being non-public. I'm sure everyone is in agreement that during the seizure the FDIC/JPM confiscated the books of WMI (holding co) and WMB (the bank sub) and have held onto same protecting them from all prying eyes except for the debtors. Due to this fact we are all are forced to speculate as to the nature and location of any assets formerly held solely by the holding company and those in which they held a co-interest in with WMB.
It is this speculation which is at the center of the squabbling but if one is truly honest and analyzes the ample "circumstantial evidence" available, one can only conclude that there will be a substantial return to the estate. I have clearly stated in the past that i "DO NOT" foresee $100's of billions returning to the estate but anywhere from $200-$1000 returned per WAMPQ share with equated values for the other equities. The "circumstantial evidence" of which i speak is posted daily by many here but it is absolutely your choice to accept it and make inferences based on same or accept that the filings solely tell the full story.
Edit: What is also required to answer your question would be honesty in the dealings and utterances of the debtors attorneys ie B.Rosen & co. They have already IMO demonstrated on which side of this trait they stand and can legally do so.
The P&AA ( the incomplete public version) clearly stated that the sale of loans were to be at "BOOK" value.
Are you saying the $1.88 Bil JPM payment represents "BOOK" value for over $300 Bil in mortgages, including as we are now aware, $30 Bil in high performing apartment loans ? If thats the case our lawyers were either denied access to info, complicit or just plain incompetent, referring specifically to Susman and Co.
It will be a done deal when THJMW signs off to close the BK, not before. The POR was an important part of the whole process.
I'm referring to WMI assets not WMB assets. WMI assets if seized were done so illegally since back in 2008 it was illegal to seize a holding company's property.
It was always there but due to the rushed nature of the sale and all of the negative propaganda surrounding WAMU loans and practices at the time, it was well concealed. There is still some hope for a fair and reasonable payment for OUR assets sold to JPM based on the wording of the P&AA but again it's all about the interpretation of the entire document, most of which is not available for public viewing. As for why now?....who knows really why those POS do anything but the timing is rather curious.
I wish it did but i don't believe it will. My hope is for the recovery of WMI owned assets that were seized along with WMB's and delivered to JPM. The good thing about this $30 Bil surprise is that it gives hope that there are other assets that are not accounted for.
The PR was more along the lines of...."we have your $$ and there's nothing you can do about it!!!"
I couldn't agree more. For years we were fed the old BS lines about how poorly the WMB loans were performing and their negative effect on JPM resources. Then JPM announces this $30 Bil secret which upturns the applecart and will now surely have others take a second look. What's even more disturbing is that formerly their presence in the apartment mortgage market was average at best but with this particular WMB asset acquisition they are now the leaders in this business sector.
When the BK is officially closed and this saga ends, then and only then can we all be absolutely sure of anything.
Believe me, if I didn't actually own ESC-shares I wouldn't waste one minute of my time trying to prove anyone who actually owns them wrong.
I find it not hard but impossible to believe that WMI at bankruptcy possessed only $3-4 Bil worth of cash/assets. Remember the creditors were paid approx. $7 Bil with a large portion of that payment funded by the IRS tax returns. Where are the remaining WMI or jointly owned WMI/WMB assets that the FDIC lumped together with the wholly owned WMB assets and delivered to JPM for technically nothing ????
We seem to or choose to forget that WMI accepted the TPG capital injection as an emergency measure due to the deposit outflows. It was never a situation of WMI being bankrupt but a liquidity issue which arose out of having their available capital tied up in private WMI owned investments. If these investments were liquidated at this point they would have had to be sold at a loss ie the TPG injection became a necessary evil.
This theory is supported by the "FACT" that a day before the seizure, WMI management emailed the FDIC/OTS outlining a comprehensive plan to capitalize WMB to the tune of approximately $20 Bil just over 3 months after the TPG capital infusion. Where was this $20 Bil in cash being sourced from??? It was this email from management that may have hastened the abrupt seizure of WMI the very following day.
All IMO!!!
FACTS??? A statement can only be labeled as fact when it is based on irrefutable and complete information on a subject. Any statements made, based on limited information cannot be referred to as fact but rather a preconceived judgment.
As for the toxic posts, I do not attribute these to you in any way since you do maintain a high level of professionalism but the same cannot be said of other individuals who share your views.
What I DONT get is why is it so hard for some to believe that WMI during times of plenty (pre 2008) used the profits from their operations to finance Tier 1 mortgages which they reserved for themselves. These loans were placed into trusts for protection and served as revenue generating instruments for WMI. How is this idea so far fetched when just recently JPM revealed their $30 Billion, 6.5 year secret?
What is even more baffling is that some here read filings and expect that every piece of info regarding this case will be put out for all to see, that any inference based on the info made available is invalid. I for one do not subscribe to the "ultra literal" interpretation of this case since from day one there was just way too much money involved for honesty to prevail.
Not just negative but a Toxic Negativity that is baffling beyond belief.
Who owns those mortgages held at US Bank (trustee) ie were they WMI or WMB owned?
I also wonder why these loans are never addressed by "the other side" when you post about it?
Absolutely...i'm not questioning the sale of assets whatsoever but saying "WMILT is the target" could be misconstrued to mean something other than what you meant.
I'm not sure what to make of it either (my comment)
posted on Monday, 06/22/15 03:34:44 PM by the pyramid ........
"Email by Brian Rosen on the WMILT-Target matter...
Got this mail back some minutes before. Maybe something is clearer right now ?
Quote:
Thank you for your email. The documents do not permit or contemplate a merger transaction. However, the Trust documents do permit the Trust to sell its assets for purposes of liquidation and distribution of the proceeds thereof to holders of the Trust’s beneficial interests.
Brian S. Rosen
Partner
Weil, Gotshal & Manges LLP
767 Fifth Avenue
New York, NY 10153
brian.rosen@weil.com
+1 212 310 8602 Direct
+1 914 393 3040 Mobile
+1 212 310 8007 Fax "
Didn't "the pyramid" post a while back a purported pasted excerpt of an email from B.Rosen where he replied that the LT was not/could not be the target???
Yes you are 100% correct, it was the examiner (I believe). 2008 was a long time ago after all.
Try doing some real DD on what the Trustee reported to the court back in 2008 about his access or lack thereof to WAMU/WMI's books instead.
If you were here back in 2008 you would have known that the Trustee admitted to the court that he was not granted full access (limited access) to WAMU/WMI's books to be able to make a thorough evaluation of the entire estate. Basically he was shown what JPM/FDIC were willing to show him only, hence his report was not an indepth one. It's on the record...no reading between the lines there.
I may be wrong but Piers still haven't been paid off as of yet, so the 2.5% payment provision to WMIH is not yet in effect and will only become effective when our ESC- shares become LTI's. IMO
Apparently the point of your post "flew over" one of the intended's head.
This was my initial post that started it all, reposted to remind you.....
"Nice post...especially so because it lacks the tone of arrogance which has been symptomatic of this board the last couple days."
Where did i even mention anything about MBS's in that post to warrant your long winded irrelevant response to it about MBS's??? Before one posts a response, one should first comprehend what the post says/means before responding.
Has anyone actually researched which entity, WMI or WMB directly owned (title) these 2200 or so properties?
Was Washington Mutual Mortgage Securities Corporation a direct subsidiary of WMI or WMB?
Please repost the flow chart of WMI and WMB subs
Nice post...especially so because it lacks the tone of arrogance which has been symptomatic of this board the last couple days.
Can anyone envision a scenario where assets seized by the FDIC are sold directly to WMIH to raise funds to pay off Bonds and the Deutsche claim in part/whole thus sidestepping the WMILT/Escrows?