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Philip, hell's yea it's unlikely. Smart money is betting on "nothing extra" down the road for the dime holders. However, hope remains. Plus, the law has always been on our side.
As far as who gets what, those who opted in, opted out, a combo, whatever. I lost a lot of money on this. I also opted in. I'd prefer to be made whole but I understand those who opted out wanting extra for their extra risk. I just hope some of us (if not all of us) get some of the warrant settlement money JP Morgan took years back. We'll see.
But until the final appeal is voted down, I'll continue lurking...
I'm still around. But I only check in maybe once a week. And I only post when I have something to say, preferably on topic. :)
"His judgement comith, and right soon." I've seen that movie at least a dozen times. One of my fav's.
As far as timeline for emergence, what's a few weeks one way or the other guys? If you NEED your money out now, you have too much in, IMO.
Umaw, it depends when you owned the stock. If before bankruptcy was filed, you're in. Just read the class action settlement they mailed you. I got both settlement packets about 2 weeks ago for different classes I owned.
Maybe you could. I believe one of the TPS groups objections was that they were being "forced" to accept pennies on the dollar or, in the judge's words, get nothing and never be able to recover in the future because bankruptcy stops any future lawsuits now and forever, muhahaha ... or however she said it. It sounded kind of final though.
With dimeholders representation saying we should accept it, it's the best deal we can get, etc., you can see how a reasonable person would feel compelled to settle, under the circumstances.
So most holders of dimeq's opted in, IMO. In the future, if an appeal succeeds, it's hard to know what would happen to those who opted in versus opted out.
If JP Morgan is forced to pay, say $3/warrant, they could either deduct the $.05 those who settled already got, give something extra to those who opted out, give the extra $.05 as a dividend to every newco stockholder who would have gotten an extra few shares if dimes were excluded in the first place, etc.
Equitable mootness means if it's too hard to undue a bankruptcy in a fair way, they'll usually leave it alone, even if an error was made. In this case, it would be ridiculously easy to undue the error:
JP Morgan pays $3.15/warrant plus interest to every warrant holder of record as of 2/29/12 less any amount of cash/cash equivalent paid out. The balance would be paid to everyone else who got newco stock proportionately, likely, as a cash dividend of $.08/share of whatever.
There. Error undone, problem solved. Every warrant holder gets the same amount of settlement. All newco shareholders get adjusted for the minor amount paid to warrant holders who opted in.
Catz, thanks for the PM. Yea, they're a strange breed of security, but might have a superior payoff. Plus, a legitimate appeal was filed in DE and the US circuit court in DC under judge block. I locked 200K. The pq's were the logical play here but I just couldn't sell all my dimes.
Personally looking forward to firing Wilingham first chance I get. Selling out the EC for a "stable" long term board job huh? Good luck keeping it. :)
If you want to run for the BOD post emergence, you have my vote and probably everyone else here.
Catz, thanks for your continued efforts helping everybody out. I like having this time of calm, almost zen-like quiet, if you don't read the posts from people asking "what's going on" every 15 min.
By the way, I'm not sure if I asked you this post-lock, but did you hang on to your dimes? I did.
Remmy
My Scottrade's also say C2. My TD's say NA.
Catz, some will dump immediately, some are waiting to buy immediately. Who will win the supply and demand tug of war? Your guess is as good as mine.
But I suspect, those with itchy trigger fingers jumped out already. "Day traders don't do no stinkin ballots," to butcher an old movie quote.
Remember, the big selloff already occurred because of int'l investors, those who didn't understand the balloting process, illiterate people, head trauma survivors, etc.--you know, the people you addressed in your sticky.
In short, I think this thing could just as easily rise as fall at emergence. More likely to rise IMO. That's why I'm still holding. :)
Did you hang on to your dimes? I did.
Buried for two weeks until all votes and releases had to be mailed. Another brilliantly tactical move by JMW. Sneaky till the end!
I don't know who Gang is, but he has a cool name and writes a hell of a legal draft. I especially like the embedded stock charts.
This reminds me of the titanic going down. We all knew it was sinking and now everyone is scrambling for a spot on a remaining lifeboat. But the spaces are almost gone and time is running out fast.
I bought a significant quantity on Fri, should settle today, my releases arrived this morning via UPS overnight, I included a note to call me with problems, deadline is tomorrow for TD. Must say, feeling a little pressure until they're locked in my acct.
I'm not a procrastinator. I just thought the price would fall as the deadline approached assuming most would want to vote. I did save a little money doing this, but not much. Next huge, multi-year bankruptcy I'm involved with, I'll get my shares locked in two weeks early and relax and watch the show.
Oh yes, next time. :)
Hi Philip, great effort again but there's no way. You'd need 10M LTWs to pledge .01 each contrib to reach $100K, and that would just be the start of the legal fees, trust me.
I think most of the board has decided to either sell or sign waivers to get newco stock hoping to recoup some of their losses. I love a cinderella story (ie, if the LTW holders were one day made whole) but, the odds are super low at this point.
If we had the legal expertise of the TPS's, maybe. But we don't.
Don't want to discourage your efforts. I'm down 5-figures and most on this board are down the same if not 6-figures with the last ruling.
I think that's one of the reasons many on this board either sold and left, pledged and left, or else got kind of salty and unhelpful and antagonistic.
I guess it's understandable to be upset. Nobody likes losing $50K-$100K on a ruling that runs contrary to contract law.
All IMO of course.
Wall St, you have a couple of follow up questions from your last post. Hope that wasn't just a hit and run job... :)
Philip, 3% is about right. Maybe 4%. :)
Eagle, under that scenario, yes, they would get nothing.
Wall, also, are you giving releases or not? (Assuming you're willing to share.)
Hey Wall, any realistic chance of LTW's filing an appeal outside of JMW's domain? If so, do you think Bush (or someone with deep pockets) is on the case?
BTW, I never chastised you and neither did most of us still here.
Rem
Zilla, you basically got it but remember that any shares added after you fill in your ballot will be worthless. You have to declare the number of shares you are voting on your ballot. Those will be locked. Adding more later will NOT be added by your broker because the ballots clearly say you cannot change your ballot (including the share count) after you submit it.
And if you don't submit a ballot, you won't get anything either.
Adding any shares after your ballot is submitted will be worthless; they won't even be counted if an appeal happens later because they won't be added to your brokers master ballot list.
Mike, no you cannot split your vote 50-50. You have to vote the same for all securities of the same type for each account.
If you own dimes in more than one brokerage acct, as I do, you can vote each acct differently. But if you own all in one acct, you have to make a choice.
By the way, if you also own preferreds or commons in the same acct, you CAN vote those securities differently as you have a different ballot for each security, from each broker.
Marty, I don't have the paperwork here, but it's stated in the por, ds, and I believe the ballots you received. This is the whole reason why we're unhappy with the settlement, we have to choose to get pennies--and give up all right to ever sue anybody regarding this issue in perpetuity--or get wiped out with a slim chance of it being overturned on appeal.
So it's bad to settle for pennies and it's bad to have such low odds of seeing a big recovery.
Philip, "A" for effort. Any hope for more than 8 cents now rests with an appeal.
Linda, I wasn't correcting your grammar. :)
I was agreeing with you and just adding that I hope if judge block offers guidance, he does so before the voting deadline.
I didn't listen in today but it sounds like Mr Bush's objection, and his $105K investment, was voted down. He wrote a very nice objection. I thought he was a atty until he stated he wasn't.
Philipmax also write a nice objection but it sounds like it got "misplaced" by the court. I know they want to ram this settlement through, but come on, a little due process JMW! I mean, really.
By the way, great job over the last few weeks with the research and such Linda. You're single handedly keeping this board afloat. I think most dime holders are still too depressed to type.
Rem
Hopefully he'll tell us soon.
My opinion is the same as yours. I didn't see any ex date referenced in my materials either. But this case cranks out so much info, I assumed I must have missed it.
Do you ever feel like you have two full time jobs these days? :)
Per POR7, all dimes will be canceled at emergence. If you agree to not sue and accept the settlement, you will get newco shares. If you don't sign, you won't get anything and your stock will be canceled. I believe an appeal will be "attempted" by someone. No idea if it has a shot. But I also think it's likely, that if an appeal is made AND succeeds, that anyone who signed the settlement agreement in exchange for new co shares is out of luck. You're selling your right to sue for the newco shares.
Quite the dilemma...
I'm leaning toward going down with the ship, btw. :)
Catz, this seeking alpha article says the shares have an ex date of Feb 10. If true, you might want to update your "twilight trades" section.
(See the message I'm replying to if you want to see the article. It's very brief.)
P.S. Thanks very much for the PM. Unfortunately, my acct will not allow a PM back but GLTY as well!!!
Catz, thanks so much for the info. Also, your recap of the q&a was, in a word, stellar. You've done a lot to help these folks/kids even if they sometimes forget to thank you. So thank you Catz!
On a related note, I'm seriously thinking of adding more before sending in my ballots with the final tally. At these prices, it's so tempting. I also have to decide what to do with my dimes. Tempted to opt out for a potential appeal. I think only the dimes and the piers have a shot at one.
Regardless, I hope you hold enough to make some money when the dust finally settles.
Rem
Catz, my apologies if you already answered this as I couldn't find it anywhere.
Do you know what happens if we add stock now to a class we either didn't own (i.e., didn't get ballots for) or simply increase the quantity of shares in a class we did own and are voting on?
For example, when the ballots were created, say we owned 500K shares of wamuq which we plan to vote "yes" on but then we added an additional 500K today. Does that vote cover the newly added 500K shares as well?
Second, say we add a class we didn't own when the ballots were created, say Wampq's, that we did not get ballots for. Would those automatically be opted out (voted no) as we did not get ballots for the pq's?
Thanks very much for your help as always.
Rem
It's safe to hold at this price. JMW granted $9M is cash plus new equity plus possibly $10M extra. While the value of the new equity is debatable as is the $10M, $9M/110M outstanding shares = $.082/sh assuming everything else is worth $0, which it won't be, particularly the new equity.
JMW will NOT overturn her ruling by choice. That's not been her way thus far. There would need to be an outside judge intervene or this thing will be worth exactly the figures she's already disclosed, $.082-$.24/share, depending on the variables.
The likely path is an appeal to either judge block in d.c or another appeals court. The couple of attys who've posted probably had $50K in each at $.70 (completely my own estimate) hoping for $2.80. Neither will let $50K go (much less the potential for $200K) without a fight. They have a lot to personally lose and the skills and contacts to challenge this ruling at some level.
Not saying a rise to $3.00 is likely. Just reiterating that I see no point in selling BELOW the stated minimum recovery price.
Best of luck to all...
Godspeed WallStreet!!!
Nevermind. A few just went thru. But volume has fallen off a cliff today if it wasn't halted for some reason this morning. Guess that means it's "fully sold" and can only go up from here! (ha ha)
The stock appears halted.
Nice letter Ty! My first thought was you might wish to ask for a bit more, but then I realized that it's better than asking for nothing extra and, also, message conveyed with regard to the conflict of interest and only pennies being awarded us.
Anyway, great effort and I hope it helps!
p.s. remember to pick up a few dimes of your own so you're not excluded. Even .10-.13 is more than .085.
Ty, nice summary. Thanks for your contribution.
I also held quite a bit at .75 and than bought more at .085 to average down. But I haven't sold any. I'm willing to convert over to the new co as I believe there's more value there than the $250M expected, far more, for various reasons.
Consider something else Ty. There are a few smart lawyers working to undue this as we speak via injunction, stay, change of venue claims, etc.
Even if all that fails, I believe a post conversion price of .50-1.00 is possible during 2012 and a near term pop before emergence is possible with a dollop of good luck. 5x-10x from where we're at isn't that bad.
So, if you can tie up your cash for a while, you might reconsider cashing out at .085, a price at which you have little downside.
Amen 4 cents. Wall St, can't someone with legal expertise in the D.C. area petition for an emergency stay of this order? If any legal minds out there holding dimes have any aces up their sleeves, now is the time to pull them. If not, I guess I'll see some of you on the other side...
Right there with ya linda... rounding errors basically.
I calculate .18-.207/share floor depending on if the legal fees are paid separately, which it indicates can be applied for, as that would add another .027 per share. All in all, a good day.
(I edited to correct the common stock to be 8.77% of 30%)
Hey With Catz, since we last spoke a month ago, I added dimeq's and wampq's after reviewing por7. Got blindsided by JMW's dimeq ruling but added more in the last couple of days, dollar costing my way down to .20 from .75. Feel much better. Planning to hold both to emergence. But am concerned about needing to sign a release to get our dimeq's converted as I think we'll have a decent shot getting her ruling overturned on appeal. Taking a wait and see approach on this.
I do like Wall's opinion of JMW setting a high valuation on the dimes to reduce our incentive to appeal later. Would be very happy with a .90 at this point.
Wall, do you think holders of dimeq's will have to go along with the equity plan and give up the right to sue in order to get stock in the new co?
I understand wamuq's will have to go along with the program and not sue the hedge funds. But it seems to me that dimeq's have a much clearer shot to win on appeal. In the meantime, if we got converted to new co shares at .06-.30/share, if not more, that would seem safer than opting out, getting 0 shares, and pinning all of our hopes on litigation.
Any thoughts on how this might play out with respect to releases from future lawsuits as a prerequisite to getting converted to newco equity?
Chiron, sorry for your loss. If it makes you feel any better, I lost twice as much as you did. It's all part of the game my friend. If you rode it down from .80, as I did, do not be in any hurry to sell at .08. There are a couple of good reasons for a bounce from here. The last thing you want to do is sell at the bottom out of frustration and lock in your loss. Wamuq has always required extreme patience to make money. Today is no exception.