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i am with you TD 31! See you in vegas!
Great Idea! I just did it, if all of get on the same page the MM's and Stock flippers will not be able to manipulate the market
Welcome. Please read the Ibox and a lot of the due dilligence, settlement could come in the form of stock or cash YES a complete loss is possible in ANY bankruptcy but not when the company is SOLVENT.
Read investing in distressed stocks by William j. Grace it is on Amazon
Great idea
I agree. please stop calling me johhny
That depends on how the settlement goes, either way i think boonds will see some recovery
Read my earlier posts buying bonds is about hedging against WAMUQ common stock, ive been here a while
YES. WMB Bonds NOT WMI, Bondholders have representation and a claim on the WAMU assets IN FRONT OF WAMU, INC
I am no bond buying expert and don't even know where to check the trading prices, you tell the broker the face value amount of the bonds you want and the price per 1000 dollar in face you want to buy
100,000 in face value at 2 Dollars per 1000 would cost $200.00
Someone else posted a clip of the doc was up this morning, most of the doc is under seal check the DD sorry I don't have the link
YES! if JPM is buying the stock of WMI it's a win for us!
Not Sure, it was posted last night i don't know how to post the link
look up the bonds by using the cusip only, I bought more on e-trade this morning, call e-trade if you are having trouble, Sorry I am not good at explaining how to do it
The recent court docs posted and make reference to a 363 sale, perhaps WMI stock is being bought out by JPM, the rest of the info was filed under seal. Someelse posted the info that contained a 363 sale so I did the explanation its a lot of reading but you have to stay up on the DD
.75-$2 Dollar for $1000 in Face Value
CUSIP FOR WAMU JUNIOR BONDS I OWN
93933VAS7
93933WAB2
93933WAA4
93933WAB2
CUSIP FOR WAMU JUNIOR BONDS I OWN
93933VAS7
93933WAB2
93933WAA4
93933WAB2
I'M holding my Common stock, but if you believe commons are cheap, you should also have Junior bonds, I make a living as a bankruptcy consultant, trust me my ideas are not misleading.
Bonds are very very cheap with an even better chance of recovery than Commons, I own both.
Not sure if you were referring to my ideas being ,misleading if so please make your case legally, this is going to be a great week no need for attacks of ideas other than those you like
I post with Love
Dred Scott
Each bond is 1000 in Face Value
This is the full Cusip 93933VAS7/ US93933VAS79/ 2089461
Hopefully this helps, i bought on e-trade about 6 months ago I have no idea what exchange or how to find out
No. Sorry call e-trade and ask them why you can't purchase, it could be that they don't let you buy bonds in distressed US banks that were taking over
GREAT POST FISH!
I own the bonds I listed google the CUSIP I bought mine on e-trade
Junior Bondholders get paid BEFORE COMMONS,if you beleive in common stock, the junior bonds should be purchased as well they are an even better deal than commons with better chance of recovery
IS JPM BUYING WMI OUT THIS WEEK? EXPLANATION OF BANKRUPTCY CODE 363
BELOW IS AN EXPLANATION OF BK CODE 363
In a recent case, the U.S. Bankruptcy Court for the District of Delaware held that a Section 363 sale of the stock of a non-debtor subsidiary corporation by a parent company in Chapter 11 did not extinguish claims against the subsidiary arising from events that occurred prior to the sale - even by the parent company's estate and its creditors. This result serves as a good reminder that any purchaser in a bankruptcy sale must pay close attention to the mechanics of Section 363, the structure of any such proposed acquisition, and negotiation of specific provisions in the Court's sale order as a condition of sale to protect the buyer.
One of the most valuable advantages of using Section 363 of the Bankruptcy Code to implement asset sales is the ability of a debtor to sell its assets "free and clear" of liens or other third party interests in the assets, thus giving a purchaser considerable comfort and presumably enhancing the purchase price. The comfort that a purchaser derives and the resulting purchase price enhancement can, however, be excessive if the purchaser fails to pay close attention to the language of Section 363 as it relates to the structure of the transaction. This is particularly the case where a buyer seeks to acquire a business or assets owned by a subsidiary of a debtor.
Let’s start with the language of the statute. Section 363(b)(1) is the touchstone - it authorizes a "trustee" (which, in a Chapter 11 case, usually means the debtor) to sell "property of the estate" other than in the ordinary course of business after notice and a hearing. Section 363(f) goes on to provide that, subject to satisfying certain conditions, the trustee (again, read "debtor") may sell property under Section 363(b) "free and clear of any interest in such property" that a third party may claim. Thus, reading the two sections together carefully, it is clear that the ability of a debtor to sell property "free and clear" of third party claims is limited to property that belongs to "the estate" - a concept that is developed in much detail in Section 541, but in essence means property that belongs to a person as to which a case under the Bankruptcy Code has been commenced.
With this framework in mind, suppose that ABC, Inc., a diversified electronics manufacturer, files a voluntary Chapter 11 proceeding and seeks to sell its wireless telephone equipment division to a buyout fund under Section 363(b). In such a case, Section 363(f) permits ABC, Inc. to sell the assets of that division free and clear of third party claims. Suppose, however, that ABC, Inc.’s wireless telephone equipment business is held by XYZ, Inc., a wholly-owned subsidiary of ABC, Inc. and that no bankruptcy case has been commenced by or against XYZ, Inc. Clearly nothing in Section 363 authorizes XYZ, Inc. to sell its assets free and clear of third party claims, and no reasonable buyer would be under any contrary illusions.
Change the facts slightly, however, and suppose that ABC, Inc., a Chapter 11 debtor proposes to sell the shares of its wholly-owned, non-debtor subsidiary, XYZ, Inc. pursuant to Section 363(b). What comfort would a buyer of the shares of XYZ, Inc. have with respect to possible third party claims?
This is a simplified version of the facts presented in a recent case, Amphenol Corp. v. Shandler (In re Insilco Technologies, Inc.), 351 B.R. 313 (Bankr. D. Del. 2006), decided by the U.S. Bankruptcy Court for the District of Delaware. In that case, Insilco Technologies, Inc. and several of its subsidiaries entered into a "stalking horse" Stock and Asset Purchase Agreement to sell certain of their assets to Amphenol Corporation in a sale that was to be conducted under Section 363 of the Bankruptcy Code. Among the assets to be sold were the shares of Insilco’s wholly-owned subsidiary, Precision Cable Mfg. Corp. de Mexico, S.A. de C.V. ("PCM"). Following Chapter 11 filings by Insilco Technologies, Inc. and those of its subsidiaries that were sellers in the proposed transaction, the sale to Amphenol was consummated under Section 363(b). PCM, which was a Mexican corporation, did not file a Chapter 11 petition with the other members of the Insilco group that were sellers under the Stock and Asset Purchase Agreement. Amphenol paid approximately $10,000,000 for the assets and PCM shares.
Approximately 21 months after the closing of the Section 363 sale, the trustee for the Insilco Liquidating Trust brought an action against PCM, seeking to recover approximately $1.8 million which the trustee alleged had been paid by Insilco to PCM as a preference in violation of Section 547 of the Bankruptcy Code. Surprised and dismayed, Amphenol asked the Bankruptcy Court to enjoin the trustee’s claim on the basis that the claim was precluded by Section 363.
In a carefully reasoned opinion, the Bankruptcy Court held that Section 363 did not insulate PCM from the trustee’s claim. The court based its decision on both the language of Section 363 and basic hornbook corporation law.
According to the court, "t is an axiom of corporate law that … a corporation is an entity, distinct from its stockholders even if the subsidiary’s stock is wholly owned by one person or corporation." Simply put, PCM was not Insilco - the two were separate legal entities. Moreover, although Insilco and several of its other subsidiaries were subject to Chapter 11 proceedings, PCM was not. While Section 363(f) authorized Insilco to sell its property free and clear of third party claims, PCM’s assets were not Insilco’s assets. Therefore, while Amphenol took the PCM shares free and clear of any claims that might have attached to the shares, PCM itself was not immunized from third party claims by virtue of Section 363(f).
The court expressed sympathy for the harsh result of the decision for the buyer. The effect of the decision was to expose Amphenol to the risk that the value of its investment would be reduced by approximately one-fifth of the purchase price. As Amphenol argued, had this result been foreseen it may well have affected the price that Amphenol would have been willing to pay for this acquisition. Indeed.
There are practical lessons to be learned for buyers when a potential acquisition under Section 363 includes a business or assets owned by a wholly-owned subsidiary of a debtor in bankruptcy:
1. If it is important to the buyer that it acquire the assets of the subsidiary free and clear of third party claims against the subsidiary (and it almost always will be), then the buyer should insist that the subsidiary both become a party to the asset purchase agreement as a "seller" and also become a "debtor" i.e. file a bankruptcy petition. Further, the sale agreement should make clear that the subsidiary is selling its assets to the buyer, and that the buyer is not merely acquiring shares of the subsidiary from its parent.
2. If the subsidiary cannot or should not become a debtor (either because it is ineligible to do so under Section 109 of the Bankruptcy Code or for other good reasons), then a potential buyer should be aware that there is more pressure on the already important task of getting the due diligence right to ferret out all possible third party claims that may be raised post-closing against the subsidiary. As a practical matter, holdbacks and indemnification will be very difficult to negotiate if the effect is to make uncertain or materially to delay the debtor’s enjoyment of the proceeds of a Section 363 sale.
3. In addition, if the subsidiary cannot or should not become a debtor it would be reasonable for a buyer to take into account the potential of post-closing claims against the subsidiary in deciding upon the price that the buyer is willing to pay for the acquisition.
4. Under certain special circumstances, it may be possible to obtain from the Bankruptcy Court a so called "channeling injunction" requiring that claims that may have been brought against the subsidiary instead be brought solely against the proceeds of the sale.
5. The buyer should also consider requiring the seller to release any claims that it may have against the subsidiary that is being sold. While such a release will obviously not protect the buyer against all potential future third party claims, it will at least avoid the risk that the seller may attempt effectively to increase the purchase price after closing by bringing such a claim (as in fact occurred in the Insilco case).
6. In other situations, the subsidiary may be eligible to be a debtor, but if its most valuable assets are executory contracts (such as intellectual property licenses) that cannot be assigned despite the liberal provisions of Section 365 of the Bankruptcy Code, a Section 363 asset sale will not be the appropriate structure. The solution in such a case is for the subsidiary to file a bankruptcy petition along with its parent and for the subsidiary to be sold pursuant to a Chapter 11 plan. The plan would protect the buyer by including a discharge of claims against the subsidiary, and creditors would be limited to recourse against the proceeds of the sale.
While the purchase of the business of a subsidiary of a debtor under Section 363 requires special attention and care, a buyer that is well advised with respect to the operation of the relevant Bankruptcy Code provisions should be able to identify and manage the risks.
WMI INC MAY SELL ALL IT'S STOCK TO JPM AND LEAVE THE LIABILITIES IN BK (Lawsuits, claims by pre seizure stockholders etc.)
CUSIP FOR WAMU JUNIOR BONDS I OWN
93933VAS7
93933WAB2
93933WAA4
93933WAB2
WAMU BONDS ARE THE PERFECT HEDGE FOR COMMON STOCK OTHERWISE YOU ARE CHOOSING TO GAMBLE (I Own Junior bonds, common and pref)
This is an excerpt from an article written January 7th 2010 entitled
Too Big to fail by DAVID G.TARR of New Economic School, Moscow
When Washington Mutual was placed in FDIC receivership on September 25 2008, it was 6-7 times larger than any bank that had failed in US history. It had $310 billion in assets and $182 billion in deposits. The previous largest bank failure was Continental Illinois National Bank and Trust with $41 billion in assets and $30 billion in deposits, when it failed in 1984. Despite its size, what followed was a fairly standard FDIC procedure under receivership.
The FDIC wiped out the stockholders and most of the unsecured bondholders—then without bondholder liabilities, sold the bank's assets along with the customer liabilities to J.P. Morgan Chase for $1.9 billion, and handed those proceeds over as partial recovery for the senior bondholders.
Customer deposits at Washington Mutual became liabilities of J.P. Morgan Chase and on the next day after being placed in receivership (Friday September 26, 2008) customers were able to continue banking as usual at the combined facilities of Washington Mutual and J.P. Morgan Chase. This was all done so quickly and efficiently that it has hardly even been noticed—the Senior Financial Supervisors Group investigating the credit events of late 2008 ignored it. It should be clear that there was little or no negative impact on broader
------------------------------------------------------------------
Please do not overlook the fact that the FDIC has already alloted the 1.9 Billion to the senior bondholders (according to this info)
If this is the case WAMU SENIOR Bondholders will be paid FIRST, JUNIOR BONDHOLDERS NEXT etc.
On October 13, 2009 in the DC action the Judge granted the Bondholders motion to intervene.
This is the equivalent of the equity committee being appointed for stockholders
Junior Bonds are selling for 1.00 for $1000 in Face value
1)IF the Junior bonds are paid in full this is 1000 Times the money
2).50 Cents on the dollar is 500 Times the Money
3).25 Cents on the dollar is 250 Times the Money
4).[b]125 Cents on the dollar is 125 Times the Money
IT IS CRAZY NOT TO HEDGE COMMON STOCK PURCHASES WITH JUNIOR BONDS I own the following junior bonds
CUSIP 93933VAS7
CUSIP 93933WAB2
CUSIP 93933WAA4
CUSIP 93933WAB2
The bondholders have INCREDIBLE power, ONLY owning common stock is crazy, if you REALLY beleive their will be money left for common stock ( I think so) buying the Junior bonds makes perfect sense.
Trust me I have been a consultant in a LOT of bankruptcy cases and BONDHOLDERS have priority and have a much better chance of seeing FULL recovery.
The WAMU Bondholders have FIRST Claim to the assets even in front of the holding company.
IF WMI inc had 1st priority the FDIC would have turned over the 1.9 Billion that JPM paid to WMI, NOT TO THE SENIOR BONDHOLDERS.
I am 100% sure a settlement will be reached I'm not sure when BUT lets all be aware of the incredible deal on the junior bonds, if you beleive COMMONS will get paid ANYTHING buy Junior bonds as a hedge.
DRED SCOTT
INDY MAC vs. WAMU
You are correct, that proves fradulent conveyance right there.
WAMU JUNIONR BONDS CUSIP (I Don't have the time frames in front of me)
93933VAS7
93933WAB2
93933WAA4
93933WAB2
RICKSYZ NO. I agree with you settlement will probably happen first before SJ
SJ SHOULD BE A GIVEN BUT anything can happen with these crooks, i think a FULL SETTLEMENT will happen first
This is not a long time for a Bankruptcy litigation play stock, this is normal for these types of stocks I think a lot of people are NEW to this type of investing.
This company still has time to present a plan of reoroganization, so a " long time' has to be put in perspective
Although I understand the impatience lol
WMI IS NOT A SHORT TERM FLIP STOCK-We are either going to getr paid BIG or not at all. litigation play stocks are about LONG-TERM, this is not a flip stock
The day to day fluctuations of this stock are irrelvant, i have said this on several posts, this stock requires, reading of DD, and a general understanding of Bankruptcy law, this board as a collective is very smart, buy these stocks LONG TERM or not at all.
It is impossible to guess where a litigation play stock like this SHOULD be at already, most people are actually waiting on the SJ ruling on the 4 billion BEFORE they buy in, if settlement comes this week they will be to late
I agree. The WAMU name is still a great name, people at chase would swith back to Wamu
Yep lol
Yes I own WMB Bonds, I own Junior Bonds i bought at .40 cents for $1000 in Face Value
Yes but Madoof didn't get away with it, JPM got away with it, settlement or not that was my point
WMI INC vs JPM SETTLEMENT POSSIBILITIIES-The lawyers actually ask ME to give them the Strategy, None of the lawyers I work with are following this case
A TON of different possibilities exist,
1) WMI Inc could be purchased by JPM and they possibly screw the WMB Bondholders that way, it is all about the AMOUNT of the settlement AND the STRUCTURE, which i can't speculate on, just to many possibilities
Otherwise the WMB bondholders would be in line first, Senior bonds are trading at .50 cents on the dollar and Junior Bonds are .75 for a face value of $1000 dollars
The WAMU Bondholders have been quiet by they have tremdous power from a legal standpoint, if in fact that this was a fradulent conveyance( I think it was) the WMB Bondholders would get paid first, I own Junior Bonds, Common,and preferred stock.
The possible return for the bondholders is incredible and more likley, there isn't much discussion about the WMB bondholders, and with about 13 Billion in face value, they are not going down without a fight
DON'T UNDERESTIMATE JPM-They pulled off the BIGGEST Bank robbery in History, MADOFF"s scam was bigger but he is in Jail, so technically he DIDN'T pull it off.
JPM probably owns more stock, bonds etc. (Through clients, Ghost buyers, funds, favored clients etc.) let's not assume they did not prepare to make a settlement BEFORE they decided to run this scam
I work as consultant in Bankruptcy cases and I worked in a case with only $250,000 debt, we bought the debt for .01 on the dollar and THEN filed a motion to re-opened the case and sold the property of the estate(that creditors thought was worth Zero) for about $250,000, we got the PROPERTY and OUR MONEY BACK.
If this happens in small cases, IMAGINE the level of strategy in a 30-50 Billion dollar situation.
JPM has already made their move, trust me