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Buying by accredited investors, institutional investors, it would happen rather quickly once the right verdict is dropped.
They are both in the same boat. They are a different class of preferreds than what the treasury is holding. Only the treasury is receiving a divie at present. This is all so corrupt. What Cramer and all should be screaming is class action suit in federal court.
Toe dippers. These folks are like those that dip their big toe in a cold pool and take 1/2 an hour to get in up to their waist. Every step of they way they tell you how cold it is.
Once other swimmers (investors) have made the decision to swim they just jump in at once and get wet. It's still cold but within a minute they are good because they already made up their mind before hand. Co complaining, no toe dipping. Same result.
Get wet everyone. FNMA is bringing the pool and the party.
Because he is a well know short side player. "Do as I say NOT as I do"
And buy subscriptions to my stock picker service!!
But buy buy!!!
That's the way they are treating it on many many levels. How many midnight "executive orders" have we seem with this clown? They are making a mockery of the US constitution and the country at large.
The situation at FNMA is like asking your dad who comes down to Florida from up north to watch your house and take care of the bills while you are away on an extended military leave. But when you get home you find that he is running a flop house and collecting rent from 20 people. You want your house back but he has grown accustomed to that rent money. Now through no fault of your own you have to fight to get it back.
No. The gov IS taking only dividends on only their preferred shares. Not only is this a violation of the 5th amendment but this is the government having a time at the casino at the shareholders AND more importantly the TAX PAYERS expense. They are using FNMA divies to fund their other flubs when they have an opportunity to sell their preferred shares and make good on the tax payer investment. Just like any trader or investor would tell you, take profits off the table. The government is playing with our money and while today they are winning the climate can shift without warning. So besides the 5 th amendment issue (which is huge) this is just fiscally irresponsible. The point of the bailout was to secure against a possible collapse of the mortgage market. That has been averted. The job is done. FNMA back from the brink. Now it is both illegal and highly irresponsible of them to keep any principle investment of tax dollars in the game.
#1 Pay back the taxpayers
#2 relinquish the conservatorship
#3 let shareholders resume ownership and let business as usual prevail.
The government has no business being in this any more. They are like a older investor who needs to focus on capital preservation as the capital being preserved is all of ours. They do not need to be risking social services allowances on a gambling trip to Vegas.
Yes. But what is lacking is a rule that prohibits them from naked shorting when there is obvious liquidity from normal buyers and sellers. When you let the fox set the rules for the hen house you will get less and less
chicken and eggs to market.
Great idea. A few of us have been doing that on a small scale but I love the idea of having a concise draft that covers all the hot button issues that congress will have to address if they fail to make the right choice here.
The fed can't afford toilet paper right now let alone take a risk at losing the taxpayers principle so they can misappropriate the divies earned off the taxpayers backs. That will land them in court and all incumbents will be to blame.
Lets face it. This congress can't get a consensus on what to order for lunch let alone be responsible for making a huge decision like this without serious input from constituents.
As a taxpayer we want our money back, and deservedly with interest. As it stands the fed is acting as if that is their money to use fir whatever. As shareholders we deserve this as the courts are upholding the judgements against the banks for selling bad paper. And the company has righted a seriously listing ship.
I don't have pm on Ihub but pc does and I'm tight with him.
I don't mind sharing some input and I'm sure he would as well.
That's going to depend on the strength and protracted nature of this real estate boom. Buffet and other say this a great time because rates are still cheap. Overall input markets around the country 30% drop from highs was about the limit of the loss in homeowner equity. Many markets have already recouped this. That means that we are about back to where prices were a few years ago in many places. That said a strengthening market could boost us back up to the previous highs very quickly. And given a protracted period of growth from here we could surpass those previous highs. We could see $100 in under 3 years if gov does the right thing AND the broader market conditions remain strong i.e. lower jobless rate, rising consumer index etc. Thats going to be a tough one to call.
No doubt. I have been tweeting as many as I can find twitter accts for.
Debbie wasserman, John McCain, Barney Frank, etc. every day several times a day. I want to be the #1 pain in their ass. And what they will soon realize is that by all of us doing this we are actually preserving them their jobs.
Get political folks. Your money is counting on it.
They better hurry up. Nothing last forever. This cycle will not last as long as the last and ideally won't go as high so on the backside the fall should not be so far either.
The fed is playing a risky game of craps right now with tax payer money. Debt criling, sequester, GEV furlough, none of that sheite was part of the deal at FNMA. Cash cow today could be a dead pig in a few years or less. (Just for gits and shiggles) so it is far more prudent of them to take a fiscal and political win today vs staying in and risk giving back all profits AND the taxpayers principle investment. No taxpayers or shareholders or homeowners will forgive or forget that come election time. Factor in the trespass on 5th amendment and the fed would have itself a quite a festering feces storm.
It's still sideways. The best sign of bullish momo is the trend lines in upward movement. Undies are great but OTC MMs are a crooked lot and despite FNMA trillion dollar penny status it is slumming it in a very bad neighborhood still.
Don't expect the sec to miss any porn or stop working on their resumes to top tier firms on this one.
Harvard, Yale, Columbia MBAs are not cheap. They can't afford to
Work for Uncle Sam any longer than need be to shake a few hands and get a few introductions.
: @JohnMcCain
Let FNMA live and congress look like heroes. Tax payers get $ returned with interest. If mkt reverses good luck at Wallmart
That would be great, and according to the CEO forecast very doable.
I believe you are right about phasing that would seem more appropriate.
Seems to me the CEO is in a good position to play hardball with them given the profitability coupled with the DTA. Why post them all this quarter unless it was favorable to FNMA? By that I mean the fed should not be at the casino with tax payers money and right now that exactly where they are. Sure it's all good while you are winning but what kind of f-ed up mess would that create for them not to exit with the tax dollars now after the dividends they already took and in a year or so we fall back into recession for other reasons? The voters will want blood. The fed and especially the POTUS and dems have it all. Exit now they are heroes. If they wait and market conditions reverse and tax payers get screwed, no incumbents will survive the onslaught of voter wrath.
So what would the fully dilutive pps be if all the preferred shares the Treasury has were converted to common shares in order for the fed to exit its position?
This was the case with AIG. FNMA is in a far better place in terms of assets and earnings compared to AIG so one could assume that despite the large position the fed holds the profitability of FNMA should be able to absorb this in a much more expeditious fashion with a far less drag on the pps.
Legally and mathematically there should only be a finite number of variables here to consider. From where I sit the current pps does not represent this at all. This should not have so much frigging mystery about it yet here we all sit waiting. And the worst part is that we are waiting like hungry dogs for the most corrupt and inept group in the country to make a decision about it.
I for one would feel much better taking this to court ASAP as a class action from shareholders and get a judge involved that can apply actual law to this. Waiting for the keystone congress to decide does not give me the comfort that this should warrant considering the variables we are aware of.
I agree. And in more ways than one. For them to mess with the recovery and lose will be an eviction notice for all incumbents come mid term elections.
I would jump on that train in a heartbeat. Who will be the champion here?
This is the 5th amendment problem the gov now has. They can not just reap in the profits as if this was the Treasury's own personal cash cow without regard for the shareholders or the tax payers.
They essentially did something similar to a 504 funding where the gov got preferred shares in exchange for cash. Now the funding has fueled the re emergence of a strong company. The legal battles are showing that it was the banks that put f and f in that position in the first place. So now the government needs to move very quickly to rescind the conservatorship or risk getting into a constitutional violation issue.
Convert the preferred to common and allow Fannie and Freddie to pay them back. They can not just take the money and not have it count as either sale of stock or as a dividend.
How long should the other classes of preferred and common shareholders have to wait? How long should the tax payers have to wait? Why should the government be allowed to operate this like no other entity could especially in light of how things have transgressed?
Am I wrong in this interpretation?
I hear you. They can not simply convert the preferred shares to common and sell them. This would dilute the commons to a very undesirable level and likely lead to a reverse spilt not a forward split.
This would be an example of government loansharking for sure. The preferred shares were a hedge against what most suspected was sure death for F and F and the inability to pay back the bailout. Now that the playing field is different there needs to be a different strategy. You can't maintain preferred share ownership while at the same time taking in dollars as repayment of the bailout funds without also deducting from the preferred shares the gov holds. That is double dipping at a minimum. You, me, no one could work out a deal to hold on to our shares while at the same time taking in all that cash and not have it be accounted in the same way. You either buy the shares and take the commensurate dividends or you sell your shares and take the cash value.
They are currently in a pickle as to what to do as the whole mess stinks.
Who makes a deal like that?
From the link. Just as Bodach was saying.
"Whatever policymakers ultimately decide, at least one other investor, Bronte Capital's John Hempton, believes the Fifth Amendment prohibition of the taking of private property for public use without just compensation is what will protect his investment in Fannie and Freddie preferred shares."
I know it's a win. It's a huge win. At the end of the day it won't matter to me.
The frustration is relative but stems from folks who refuse to use their computer, (or their head) to unravel enough dd to choke a maggot. Then these folks come on here asking unanswerable questions like; when, and how high, without taking the time to read even what others have produced from actually doing their own homework.
We have a whole society that cheated to get their degrees now they use the same tactics in life as a whole. These will be the same folks who sell off on a,whim because again, they lack the strength of their own convictions. And why is that? Because nothing free is easy and nothing easy is free.
I think you understand that.
Fair value is over $16/ sh. But then everyone who trades would have to be educated enough to understand why. But being this is America, and education being what it isn't, there will be a clear lack of understanding of what has already been put in print regarding the possible outcome for shareholders.
The only reason it is not trading at fair value has mostly to do with the gross ignorance of the majority of traders. This is a boon for short sellers and mm's while at the same time very frustrating for long shareholders who have done their dd in places besides a chat room.
Nothing much going on here. Http://beta.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/house-bill/234
this will remain a working entity for the years to come. During that time provided the housing market recovery stays strong the conclusion of this committee will have to give serious thought to how easily this can all fall apart if F and F were to be unwound.
This committee does not take into account the violation of 5th amendment rights.
Fnma. Looking goooooodaah!
200 million. We have set at this level for months. Billions and billions of worthless air shares are there for the taking.
Do they test for transparency of ongoing activity with the shareholders?
Do they test for the legitimacy of a non performing shell game?
It seems all they actually test is:
1) shareholders patience
2) the intelligence level of blind supporters
3) the limits of the bank accounts of #2 above.
Have fun.
It's not very productive to compare who has the biggest ding dong here pal. Immigrants with naturalization papers have the same vote to cast as a natural born citizen. It doesn't mean squat.
If you want to be productive here are some things you can do
1) call or email the FHFA conservator
2) call or write the Sec of the Treasury
3) call and write your congressman
4) call and write your senator.
5) get the class action machine revved up
6) promote all of the above to encourage others.
There is far more money to make for shareholders s d taxpayers by letting this resume normal business and seeing both a wholesale valuation and a valuation with a forward looking PE added return to this ticker.
;)
" nor be deprived of life, liberty, or PROPERTY, without due process of law; nor shall private PROPERTY be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Go ahead. Take another one lying down America. Just like NDAA. Just like all the false flag bs that spawn the public's prescribed and predetermined reactions. Oh, Uncle Sam, save me, save me....from myself.
Why don't you save yourselves?
Together we can. We always used to before everyone became such greedy and complacent pussies.
The do nothing (but let the POTUS pass midnight executive orders) congress needs to know that they have much to lose here.
Get the class action paperwork started. These dirty bastards need motivation from shareholders and the tax payers.
I sent this to Debbie Wasserman Shultz.
Partial credit to Bodach- in quotations. I suggest you all do the same once a day. I have been.
Email Me - Thank You
The following information has been submitted:
Name: Robert XXXXXXXX
Address:
XXXX XXXXXXX XXX
Hollywood, FL 33019
E-mail: XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Telephone:
Message Subject:
Message Text: I am writing to urge you to tell congress and administration to let Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac lose from the control of the FHFA and the Treasury and free them from conservatorship. They have proven beyond a doubt that they were not the sole reason for the financial crisis as we are now aware given the likely 200 Billion dollar award from the banks that sold the bad mortgages to them in the first place. They do not deserve capital punishment!! GM and Chrysler did not get "unwound" and neither should F and F especially in the face of the record profits that they are reaping given the housing recovery.
You and every single incumbent will be run out of office come next election season if your negligence and greed over F and F leads to the demise of a very fragile recovery. This is not to mention the draconian mortgage market landscape that would ensue as was the case way back when they first emerged. The problem is solved by establishing realistic loan criteria not by eliminating an entity that has stood as the number one buyer of US home mortgages in the history of the USA.
I further add that by allowing the stocks of both F and F to continue to trade while loudmouth politicians speak out of class to the press is grounds for their dismissal. If the CEO of Youtube can't post a message to friends on facebook or twitter about their umteen millionth video viewed without the SEC issuing a warning as a violation of insider trading prior to making the announcement to the broader general public then a politician with the same potential to influence the trading of a stock should be held to the same standard.
Another issue is the fact that stocks trade on future earnings. How can there be a legal market made to trade F and F if they have no future? Is the government in the business of now blatantly allowing the robbing of the constituency that support the financial markets? At present the whole thing is wreaking of severe impropriety.
Here is another point made by a colleague that references the current violation of the 5th amendment by the Treasury. At what point does your boss stop the blatant and inexcusable pilfering of justice that we continue to witness? NDAA, 2nd Amendment rights, late night executive orders. What country is this?
"A group of lawmakers including Warren, Warner, and Senator David Vitter, a Louisiana Republican, on March 14 introduced a bill that would ensure Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac could not emerge from government control even if they end up paying more to the Treasury than they took in aid. The measure would ban sales of senior-ranking U.S. Treasury-owned preferred shares without congressional approval. It also includes a provision banning the use of fee increases at the enterprises to fund the government.
“I think this is an important development,” Julia Gordon, director of housing finance and policy at the Center for American Progress, a group aligned with Democrats.“If the guarantee fee can’t be used as a pay-for, that removes the incentive for keeping the status quo.”
The bill's motivation is misleading, in my opinion. I'll explain why.
5th amendment: No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
There is a constitutional issue in keeping Fannie under conservatorship after the government profit exceeds the bailout. Fannie and Freddie have historically been backed by the government. The government had to step in to keep their end of the bargain. No one expected a pay back to happen. But now, it's in sight. According to that mutual synergy of government and Fannie/Freddie, then the bailout, after being paid back, should (IT LOOKS LIKE TO ME! SPECULATION....in the end) thereafter constitutionally release it back to it's former state. If not, then it is an exploitation of the BACKING the government promised it.
Again -- my opinion. I'm not a lawyer or certified to give any financial advice. There are shareholders. If there were no shareholders to begin with, then the constitutional issue would not be a compromise on the "has been" plan to wind down.
If the government somehow insists on the wind down, then, it seems to me, there would then be a class action lawsuit submitted by the shareholders citing the 5th. The wind down is a dead end, in my opinion. Hence the $200 billion lawsuit against thebanks. Interesting timing there."
Props to bodach. Everyone long should be posting this to the heavens, then call your attorney.
"If the government somehow insists on the wind down, then, it seems to me, there would then be a class action lawsuit submitted by the shareholders citing the 5th. The wind down is a dead end, in my opinion. Hence the $200 billion lawsuit against the banks. Interesting timing there."
Go ask Angel. I hear he is working at the Long John Silver's on Marketplace Av.
Check the men's room stall with the hole in the partition wall.
Yes agreed. There are tons of manipulating forces here holding it down. Not the least of which is from senators and congressmen opening their stupid mouths to the media. If it considered insider information for a CEO to disclose things like You Tubes CEO did on twitter re: their umpteen millionth viewed video as that could effect the market then the same should be true of these politicians and public servants speaking out of school. This is bs as all of what they are saying is currently just conjecture. Of course every scum bag mm and short will twist this in their favor hence the low volume and stupid PPS relative to the earning per share. Why allow trading at all any more if these bastards are going to be allowed to illegally manipulate the share price at the common shareholders expense? This wreaks of wrongdoing.
Right. If you discount the fair valuation of assets/shares outstanding being at over $16/ share.
Good grief. Do the math. This is grossly undervalued.
Shorts are not a fantasy buddy. One bets it goes up the other bets it goes down. Neither want to lose the bet. Problem: private short sellers are vetted for their net worth prior to being allowed to bet. The MMs and BDs cater to them like the casino does for whale gamblers.
Problem 2: market makers have carte Blanche to naked short. (In order to provide liquidity) but FNMA does not have a liquidity issue.
Problem 3: there is no justice, there is only Just Us.
Screaming manipulation. No retail doing that. No reason to naked short here as there is plenty of liquidity to make a real market. But still they do and just where oh where is the SEC?
Biggest company in America, biggest profits ever, and the skull and bones boys over at the SEC are still watching porn instead of the trading action on the most publicized stock in America these days.
Good grief!!
The math says it should be a $15 to $20 stock based only on asset valuation. Don't take this crap lying down. Call your reps and demand that F and F are released from conservatorship and can resume normal operation while paying back the taxpayers what they deserve.
Reporting it on Ihub does nothing but preach to the choir. I urge everyone to drop a dime and let congress, the Treasury Secretary, POTUS, and FHFA know you think this is dirty rotten bs. Ihub won't do it.
I went to the websites of all of the above, (not POTUS), and sent a clear message. I also called and left messages at their offices with pages and assistants, etc.
Please don't leave this to our criminal congress and gov at large to decide. Let your representatives know that if Fannie and Freddie go....
SO WILL THEY COME INTERIM ELECTIONS.
This is a violation of the 5th amendment. The government can not take over a private entity without just compensation. F and F got a loan and they can pay it back in spades. The American taxpayers, homeowners, and the shareholders should not allow them to steal this from them.
If the profits are not paying down the debt then the Treasury Department is royally screwing the tax payers, homeowners and shareholders. In this apathetic and just plain pathetically sheepish country it's no surprise that many folks would never knew this happened until it was too late to do something about it. Pick up a g d phone folks and drop a dime on your representatives, the treasury secretary, and the FHFA. Hit up their complaint sections too. This is a robbery.
Great post and article. Everyone needs to speak up before a great injustice gets any more attention or momentum from those with ulterior motives to "unwind" at the expense of the general public.
If they did this we go back to greater difficulty in getting loans and the draconian system that preceded F and F. Not to mention that every politician in office can kiss their ass goodbye if they kill the housing recovery which as we all know is the bulk of the greater financial recovery.
Yea right. I guess someone didn't "like it" so he stamped his feet and 10 fell out his pockets and into more stable minded folks pockets. Lol
As a long. I Liked it, hey M!k€y!