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I would venture to say that SEVU is not set in stone on the blue color camera bodies alone for the parking lot systems. Since they also have the bright yellow color, that is an option. Why stop there? Why not other colors? Why not give the customer what color they want?
That is why SEVU has a R&D department with engineers. I am sure there are positive developments taking place that we don't known about yet. SEVU does have the patent on video transmission over power lines and there are many camera mutations of this that can fit into commercial sales.
Let's suppose that the cusomer already has cameras they are using. Couldn't SEVU adapt those cameras to transmit over existing power lines? It could be as simple as plugging the existing cameras into a RCA jack connected to a sevu product. Then again, I am not an electrical engineer and it may be much more complicated. This is why R&D is extremely important. Today's theories will be tomorrows happenings.
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Diverdan ><>
Comparing combat handguns:
Here are some differences between the Walther P-99 in .40 cal and the Glock 23C also in .40 cal. They are very close until you look at the numbers. The 23C is a smaller .40 cal version of the full size glock 22C. I think you will see that Glock is one of the best if not the best combat handgun ever built. In fact it is so good, Smith and Wesson copied it and created a handgun called the "sigma". The Sigma is nothing but an imitation glock and S&W has been sued by Glock for the reproduction. Why buy the repo when you can have an original?
Here is a comparison between the Glock and Walther, both .40 cal
WEIGHT
Glock 23C weight - 20.92 ounces
P99 weight - 25 ounces
HEIGHT
Glock is 5.0 inches in height
P-99 is 5.37 inches in height
LENGTH
Glock is 6.26 inches
P-99 is 7.12 inches
MAGAZINE CAPACITY
Glock 23C holds 13 +1 in the chamber = 14 (will accept 15 round magazine of the Glock 22)
P-99 holds 12 +1 in the chamber = 13
TRIGGER PULL
Glock has a 5.5 lb steady tigger pull
The BEST trigger pull on a p-99 is 5.63 lbs going all the way up to 8.99 lbs
BARRELS
The Glock has a compensated barrel to blow the gases upward, thus controlling recoil to get back on target for multiple shots. (Designated by the letter "C" in the model i.e. 22C, 23C)
The P-99 does not have a compensated barrel
CONCLUSIONS:
Glock is shorter
Glock is lighter
Glock is smaller, more concealable
Glock holds more rounds
Glock has a lighter trigger pull
Glock has a compensated barrel
Referenced web sites:
http://www.glock.com/g23.htm
http://www.walther-usa.com/p99_specs.htm
One thing I didn't mention is that Glock does make fully automatic handguns. I will post a link for you showing a MPG file of a very impressive glock handgun, fully auto.
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Diverdan ><>
ONEBGG Fine with me on the quote. eom
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Diverdan ><>
Ok, I'll bite...
ONEBGG, how'd ya hurt yer fingers? Put your thumb up to high and got bit by the slide during recoil? BTDT.
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Diverdan ><>
I think there is a question of "terms" here
Normally when we say "secureview" we are talking about the light bulb camera. In this case of the "secureview parking lot systems" we are talking about a 150 mounted but using the "secureview" technology.
No matter what it is called or referred to, it looks like a good system and is one of the best products sevu has to offer. I remain optimistic that some big deals are in the works with major companies. Time will prove me right or wrong.
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Diverdan ><>
Skiper, that is incorrect.
The "Light Bulb" camera is NOT the camera they are testing at the stores for parking lot security. The camera is the MW-150, mounted on a bracket, with the adaption allowing video transmission over power lines just AS the secureview does. I also originally thought that we were talking light bulbs here. We are talking about a 150, seen at this link, with a mounting on a pole. THAT is the parking lot system.
http://sevu.com/miniseaview.htm
When I was at ASIS in San Antonio, George showed me pictures of the cameras being tested on the poles in the parking lots. The cameras were blue just as this one is. This makes them highly visible. Because they are highly visible, it does make them the best for parking lots.
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Diverdan ><>
The Ranger was designed for LE,
However, I do not know of any restriction on sales to LE only. I will check the next time I am in the now defunct K-Mart. Maybe they have a Going Out of Business sale on the Ranger rounds : )
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Diverdan ><>
Sounds like an excellent design. eom
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Diverdan ><>
Excel if you need more:
PM your email address to me and I will send more.
Excel,
Glock web site: http://glock.com/
Featured Glock pistols: http://glock.com/pistols.htm
The Glock model 22, .40 cal http://glock.com/g22.htm
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Diverdan ><>
Getting a response from investors on a message board is a very tiny part of looking into a company IMHO. I don't put too much credibility into anything I read on a board but have found some of the info true and useful. I think the next few press releases will show which direction this company is going.
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Diverdan ><>
I have read your profile. Were you not paid 185K in shares and or options to run a 6 month profile on your web site about EENT? This is called compensation for services and does not make you a non-bias source. I would like to hear from someone who has not been given compensation.
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Diverdan ><>
You qualify as a paid employee, having received restitution. I would like to hear from someone who has not been compensated.
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Diverdan ><>
Possible Investor:
Have read most of the reports and am considering an investment. If you have invested heavily in this company, PM me with your reasons why so I may consider your lead. Thanks in advance.
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Diverdan ><>
Combat handguns -
There is some talk going on about how accurate one gun is or what round is best, ect, and I would like to put in my 2 cents regarding COMBAT handguns. (Not talking target pistols here)
Statistics have shown that most police shootings are at close range, usually less than 20 feet. Police train frequently and in Texas we are required to qualify at least twice a year plus X number of hours training shooting the same ammo we carry on duty. With all this training and mandatory qualifications, you would think that police officers would be excellent shots and this would reflect during actual shooting situations. The national statistics on police shootings in actual armed encounters is that police officers hit the suspect 50% of the time. That is one out of every two rounds fired.
Why so low? I graduated top gun in my police academy in 1988 and when my shooting went down I fired 6 times hitting the suspect 3 times. Exactly the national average. The suspect was less than 30 feet away from me and pointing a .38 at me.
Why again do I ask are trained police officers only 50% efficient in hitting the target at close range?
Because you have the added element of stress combined with the need to IMMEDIATELY stop the suspect. There is no time to hold still and look at your sights. When you have someone point a gun at you 20 feet away or closer, maybe firing a shot, see an orange flash, you draw and fire as rapidly as possible, hopeing to get the first few rounds off before the suspect takes you out.
Here is where I am going with this. You need a handgun that you can quickly draw and put on target WITHOUT looking at your sights and taking your time to align the 3 dots. You need a gun that you DON'T have to worry about taking the safety off.
What is the best combat handgun for you???
Here is a simple test every serious shooter should try.
Put the unloaded handgun gun of your choice in your gun hand with the gun pointed down by your side. Choose the handgun you believe would be best for your defense in a combat situation and one that you would carry. Place your feet in your normal shooting position.
With your gun still at your side, choose a target on the wall about 15 -20 feet away, about the size of an orange, and at the height of an average man's chest.
Now CLOSE YOUR EYES. Keeping your eyes closed, bring up your handgun into the shooting position and place it to where YOU BELIEVE you are on target. Remember, keep your eyes closed, let your mind do the aiming, not your eyes. Once you are set, open your eyes and see where you are shooting. That is where you will shoot in an actual combat, high stress encounter.
What I have discovered is this, based on the design of the weapon, weight, and style grip:
A Smith and Wesson will generally be pointing low, below waist level. We had a DEA agent shooting a Smith and Wesson fire 12 rounds at a car driving at him. When we recovered the car, we didn't find a SINGLE bullet hole in the car. ALL of the rounds went low and hit the pavement.
Sigs have a tendency to point left due to the thick handgrip.
For me, I discoverd a full size GLOCK has been the most accurate and on target for point shooting.
I carry a glock model .22 in .40 caliber on and off duty. This gun naturally fits my hand and I have performed the above test numerous times with different handguns. For me, Glock is the best. The size of your hand, angle of the weapon's back strap, width of the grip etc. are all factors and you will need to find the best gun for you.
Glock also have internal safety's and one trigger safety where the trigger must be pulled straight back from the front to fire. Isn't a revolver the same thing? Pull the trigger and it shoots, no need to worry about external safety's.
My 2 cents.
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Diverdan ><>
Dannyboy,
I have an old Win model 74 (I believe). It sits above the fireplace as a show piece and I have never fired it. I would be interested to know if there is a way I can look up the serial number to see if I can get the date of mfg. etc.
If you have a web site of would like me to PM you the serial number, let me know.
The rifle belonged to my wifes father, who died 30+ years ago.
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Diverdan ><>
BGG,
I made up those rules about 10 years ago, when my kids were old enough to understand them and after seeing they fit well into my line of work.
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Diverdan ><>
We have had two glocks "blow-out"
with our department. In both cases the glocks were using reloaded ammunition and in both cases the bottom of the unsupported casing blew out. This was in no way the fault of the gun. This was ammunition that had been reloaded several times and the case weakened causing a blow-out. The gun was not damaged but the magazine was.
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Diverdan ><>
Ok, I got it now Joe...
NORMAL Killers opposed to ABNORMAL KILLERS. Sorry, didn't know we were talkiing about NORMAL killers. If you would, please state your definition of a normal killer? When the time comes to defend myself should I treat a normal killer differently?
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Diverdan ><>
Warning signs:
There seems to be a common factor that is usually uncovered after individuals commit senseless acts of violence, usually against strangers. That common factor is abuse of animals, or better known as animal cruelty. Here is some food for though, you draw your own conclusions. He are 23 reasons why I believe in the right to keep and bare arms.
Albert DeSalvo: Serial Killer and Rapist
The self-confessed "Boston Strangler" who killed thirteen women in 1962 and 1963, and sentenced to life imprisonment on unrelated charges of armed robbery, assault, and sex offenses involving four women, had, in his youth, trapped dogs and cats in orange crates and shot arrows through the boxes
Brenda Spencer: Mass Murderer
Fired forty shots from a rifle at arriving San Diego school children, fatally wounding two and injuring nine others. During the subsequent investigation, neighbors informed police that Ms. Spencer had repeatedly abused dogs and cats, often by setting their tails on fire.
Carroll Edward Cole: Serial Killer
One of the most prolific killers in modern history, was executed in December of 1985 for five of the thirty-five murders of which he was accused. Mr. Cole said that his first act of violence as a child was to strangle a puppy.
James Huberty: Mass Murderer
In 1984, Huberty was shot by police after killing twenty-one children and adults at a McDonalds restaurant in San Ysidro, California. As a teenagers, Mr. Huberty had been accused of having shot his neighbor's dog with an airgun.
Jeffrey L. Dahmer: Serial Killer, Sexual Deviant
Dahmer confessed to killing, dismembering and, in some cases, cannibalizing, 17 men and boys. As a child, Dahmer impaled frogs, decapitated dogs, and staked cats in trees in his backyard. Dahmer was convicted to death but before the sentence was carried out, he was killed by another inmate in 1994.
Ted Bundy: Serial Killer, Rapist
Bundy killed numerous females who looked like a woman for which he had a passion. In the 1970's he brought fear to college campuses in many states after killing 3 women in the Chi Omega sorority house at Florida State University. He was ultimately convicted of two killings, but is suspected of murdering over 40 females, primarily in the northwest. During his childhood he witnessed his father's brutality toward animals and he himself tortured animals. Bundy was executed in Florida
Richard Allen Davis: Accused Killer & Rapist
Davis was convicted of kidnapping of 12-year-old Polly Klass from her home and rapping and strangling her. As a 14-year-old he set cats on fire and used dogs as targets to practice knife-throwing. In 1993 he was charged with the shooting death of Marlene Voris 20 years ago. "When he was little it was animals. When he got bigger it was people," said Zak Backet a neighbor.
Michael Echols, Jessie Misskelley, Jr., and Charles Jason Baldwin: Murders
These three teenage boys were arrested in 1993 for the brutal murder of three 8-year-old boys in West Memphis. The three young boys were lured into the weeds, beaten into unconsciousness, one was sexually mutilated, another raped and all three killed. For some time prior to the killing, the three teenagers were involved in satanic-type rituals. During an initiation ceremony, they killed dogs, skinned them, and ate their flesh. Echols was also carrying a head of a cat with him.
Earl Kenneth Shriner: Sexual Predator, Killer, and Rapist
Shriner used threats to lure a 7-year-old boy into a wooded are in Washington state where he raped him, cut off his penis, choked him, stabbed him in the back and neck, and left him for dead. At the age of 16, he confessed to the killing of a teen-age girl. Police say he "was a man who put firecrackers in the anuses of dogs and strung up cats." He was committed to a state mental hospital after several incidents, including the slaughter of nearly two dozen chickens.
Eric Smith: Adolescent Killer
When Eric was 13 years old, he bludgeoned 4-year-old Derrick Robic to death and was charged with murder. Four years prior to the killing of Derrick, Smith killed the neighbor's cat with a garden hose. There are no specific reasons why he killed the little boy or the cat.
Thomas Lee Dillion: Murderer and Suspected Serial Killer
Dillion is said to be a serial killer. He admitted to the shooting of Gary Bradly in 1992, while both were hunting. Dillion, an ardent hunter who also boasted of killing more than 1000 animals in illegal drive-by-shootings, is serving a life sentence in Ohio on five murder convictions.
Michael Cartier: Stalker and Murderer
In 1992, Cartier stalked and killed Kristen Lardner in Boston, Massachusetts and then killed himself. In a prior relationship, Cartier held his girlfriend's kitten under a hot shower and then shaved all its hair off. Later he hurled it through a fourth-floor window to its death.
Keith Jesperson: Serial Murderer and Rapist
Jesperson was convicted of three murders. He was dubbed the "Happy Face Killer" by authorities after he started sending neatly printed letters to the media with happy faces drawn at the top in which he boasted of his deeds. He has claimed a total of 166 victims. Jesperson attributes the onset of his compulsion to kill to his history of killing dozens of cats and other smaller animals.
Jason Massey: Murderer and Rapist
At the age of 20, Massey killed, mutilated and beheaded a thirteen-year-old girl and shot her fourteen-year-old stepbrother. The young girl had been sexually mutilated and disembowels. As a teenager, Massey often cut the heads off dogs and cats and carried them around in a rusty metal cooler. He called these animal heads his "trophies." He is also suspected of killing and mutilated a calf.
Andrew Cunanan: Spree Killer
In 1997 Cunanan was suspected of killing five people, before taking his own life on a houseboat in Miami. An ex-roommate of Cunanan's saw him gather crabs at the beach, light a match and burn the eyes out--Cunanan watched the burned area sizzle and set the crabs back out again.
Kip Kinkel: Murderer
Kip Kinkel, 15, allegedly walked into his high school cafeteria in Springfield, Oregon and opened fire on his classmates. Two classmates were killed and twenty-two others injured, four critically. Later that day, police found his parents shot to death in their home. Friends and family have indicated that Kinkel has a history of animal abuse and torture. Friends say that he often bragged about torturing and killing animals.
Michael Carneal: Murderer
Fourteen-year-old Carneal allegedly shot and killed three classmates at their school in West Paducah, Kentucky. According to another student, Carneal talked about throwing a cat into a bonfire.
Rod Ferrell, Heather Wendorf, Dana Cooper and Charity Keesee: Murderers
"Vampire cult leader" Rod Ferrell, 17, and cult members Heather Wendorf, 16, Howard Anderson, 17, Dana Cooper, 20 and Charity Keesee, 17 were arrested in connection with the bludgeoning deaths of Wendorf's parents. Media accounts include animal torture and mutilation as part of their rituals.
Three Teenagers: Murderers
In San Francisco, California, a 17-year-old, along with two 15-year-old friends were arrested in the beating death of a 15-year-old friend. Officials reported that the older boy had a history of fire starting and animal torture, including an incident at age 11 when he is reported to have thrown a cat in the air until he broke two of its legs.
"Jack": Serial Sex Offender
This 16-year-old serial sex offender in Cleveland was charged with rape and sexual battery. His other victims reportedly included and animals.
Shawn Novak: Murderer
Convicted of slashing the throats of two young neighborhood boys, Novak, 16, was sentenced to life in prison. Several years prior to the incident, friends reported that he would wear a cat's paw on a necklace and would brag about killing animals. They also reported that he showed them dead birds, cat's heads and other animal bones.
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Diverdan ><>
Joe Wrote:
"Why would they kill people for no reason then?
James Huberty killed for neither money or revenge. He is the one who took a pistol and hunting rifle into McDonalds and did a mass killing. Huberty came from a disfunctional family and was a classic underachiever. He constantly faught with his wife, sometimes very violently, to the point of fist and hits to the face in mutual combat. He did not have the family he wanted, or so he thought, and his job was a dead end laid off insignificant type existance. What he so desperately wanted was a functional, loveable family. We he could not achieve this goal, he took his frustrations out on those that had achieved a functional family. He took his anger and years of being and under-achiever our on families. His last words to his wife as he left the house was to the effect of "Time to go hunt humans".
He then walked into McDonalds near his house and began shooting families killing 21 total, most of them children. Killing those that achieved what he could not. His mental state was that of frustration, I can do better than this, other people have put me down, fu*k those that have achieved what I could not. Some of the kids were shot through the back as they arrived on their bicycles. Police finally shot and killed Huberty or there would have been more victims. Imagine if there was someone in the McDonalds with a gun that could have prevented all this?
What you fail to understand is that there are bad people out there that will do horribile things to you and your family. Some of them would kill you for the 75 cents in your pocket or because you "Mad Dogged" them (another term for a dirty look). Imagine that, being shot for looking at someone the wrong way. Billy the Kid once shot a man and killed him for snoring too loud.
David Berkowitz was a perfect example. He is better known as the son-of-sam in NY City. He killed for no particular reason other than for control. Couples making out in their cars were shot a point blank range. Sometimes there is no motive, just a feeling of power that the criminal has never had before. Berkowitz confessed to 13 murders and attempted murders.
Take the postal workers who created a new term called "Going Postal". For years they faught red tape and regulations and always felt they were better than their jobs called for. Sorting letters everyday. Maybe they were better, but their anger was mis-directed and they had no stress management. Theodore Bundy was another example. Although he was a pathalogical liar, he killed for the feeling of power and dominance over his female victims. When the anthrax killer is finally caught, he will be a classic underachiever who has a non-rewarding job, is highly intelligent, and has misdirected anger. He is probably one who continually is glued to the TV and obviouly has a grudge against Tom Brokov. My guess is that he will be overweight, working in a high stress government regulated job.
Brenda Spencer fired 40 shots at arriving school children killing two of them. For what? For the thrill of the kill she said.
There are people out there that will kill you for no significant reason that you can put a finger on. Not everyone has a motive, some just have dementia. If you don't believe this you are living in a shell and will undoubtly become a victim.
Rule #1, Life is not fair
Rule #2, Life is what you make it
Rule #3, Treat others the way you want to be treated.
Rule #4, be armed and trained when someone does not apply the rules.
I am beginning to think that you are a plant on this thread. You really don't believe what you are saying but you want to stimulate conversation. Nobody can be that naive to think that people need a motive to kill you.
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Diverdan ><>
OMG Joe!
Turn off the TV boy, you are scareing me. Criminals FREQUENTLY target victims they do not know. That way there is no emotional attachment to the ill deed.
Why would people harm someone they don't know?????
Did George Hennard know any of his victims when he crashed into luby's (Killeen) and start shooting? NOT
How about James Huberty who walked into a McDonalds in San Ysidro, California and began shooting children and adults he did not know. At the time (1984) it was the nations largest mass murder.
FREEZE! Put down the remote control... DROP IT NOW!
I propose a new legislation. To prevent people from being harmed by their TV, lets have a 7 day waiting period before you can buy a TV. Pick up some book on criminal psycology and you will have your answers.
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Diverdan ><>
Replies to Liberal Arguments
"Guns are Dangerous" - Yes, if they are in the hands of an untrained person or a criminal. So is a car, a knife, and a baseball. Are we banning them?
"Guns should be banned" - Ban guns and only criminals will have guns. Should we lead the pigeons to the cat? Fact is - armed citizen's reduce violent crime.
"Assault rifles should be banned" No statement is more ignorant than this. An AR-15 gets banned because it is defined as an assault rifle. The Ruger Mini-15 with the same lengyh barrel, same 30 round capacity, is leagal. Why? Because the mini-14 is called a "Ranch Rifle". Liberals do not understand that people kill people, not knives, or guns, or cars, etc.
As a cop, I had to go through written testing, oral interviews, an extensive background check, polygraph, drug screening, physical standards test, and complete psylogical testing before I could carry a gun. I understand that not every citizen should or could be as extensively tested to carry a gun. Citizens are not the problem, criminals are the problem. Liberals fail to realize this. In wake of the Sept. 11th attacks, should we ban airplanes?
About 6 years ago I was invited to deer hunt on a ranch near Fredricksburg, Texas. This was a ranch out in BF Egypt and off several dirt roads. My friend and I had directions but got lost on the unmarked back roads. We stopped at a ranch to ask for directions. An elderly man came out of the porch and spoke with us and got us going in the right direction. He was friendly and accomodating. I had developed an opinion of this man as kind, friendly, intelligent, and helpful. When he turned around to walk back into his house as we were leaving, I notied the handle of a .45 M1911 sticking out of the small of his back.
And guess what Joemoney? My opinion of him didn't change any. If my friend and I had been armed criminals what should he do Joemoney? Run and wait for a depty sheriff to show up hours later?
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Diverdan ><>
Joe, so your answer is to
have a government run gun vault to keep law abiding citizen's guns? You are right, this would save lives, the lives of the criminals. Turn off TLC and look up some good hard statistics. When citizens are armed, violent crime rates go DOWN not up. Please let this board know if you are ever going to run for public office. We would like to assist you in setting a new record for the minimum amount of votes for you, the candidate.
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Diverdan ><>
Joemoney,
Yes, MOST criminals will not kill or shoot if they obtain compliance. Some of us REFUSE to be a victim and take the chance of "Will he shoot me or not". Maybe if we comply this time the next time it will be your mother or your sister who is a victim. Maybe the criminal WON'T be so nice and will kill her because dead witnesses don't talk. Let's look at some killers who got FULL compliance from their victim yet the criminal still killed them.
John Wayne Gacy Jr. - 33 killed & buried under his house
Ted Bundy - Started out small, ended up a thrill killer
Jeffery Dahlmer - Having someone over for dinner?
William Matix and Michael Platt- Security guard complied with this hands up and got three shots to the head, another victim surrended his car keys, put his hands up and was shot with a .357 in the chest.
Wayne Williams - His victims are still to this day being found in Atlanta.
These are famous cases because NOBODY STOPPED THEM and they KEPT ON KILLING!
If I am the victim of a violent crime, I will use my brain first, my resources second, and my firearm last. My best option may be to stand fast and refrain from resistance. Or it may be to draw and fire to stop the assailant. Without a gun I am nothing more than a victim, and maybe a dead one. I like having more than one option available to me. I enjoy life too much for it to be ended without a fight.
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Diverdan ><>
Joemoney,
I was trying to refrain from sounding insulting to you in my previous post. It is going to be hard now after your statement....
Joe wrote: "But isn't that what guns are used for? They are certainly not used for collecting or shooting at targets."
You need to get out of the house more, your gun ignorance is astonishing. I would venture to say there are more gun collectors than stamp collectors. Have you ever heard of the NRA? Along with defending our constitutional right to keep and bare arms, the NRA sponsors THOUSANDS of target shooting events. Ever heard of Ducks unlimited? National Skeet shooting association? National Shooting Sports Foundation? Women's Shooting Sports Foundation, International Shooting Sport Federation, ect.etc.
You are going to college right? Hello McFly? I cannot think of any state in the union that doesn't have sponsored target shooting events. Even the Olympic games has target shooting events.
You are the type of person we are trying to keep guns away from. If you think guns are only used for felonious activities, you truely have no business owning a gun. Get out of the house Joe, travel a little bit outside the city limits.
*sigh*
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Diverdan ><>
Oldblue,
It looks like the Ranger "T" meets all the minimum requirements to be an effective LE round. Here is the test results. Notice that the 12" penetration was sucessful on every test. If I find an independent study, I will send the link.
http://www.winchester.com/law/testing/testing_t.eye
This is the same standard that the FBI used to develop the 10mm i.e. .40cal. I believe this should be the standard for all handgun ammunition used for personal defense. Notice how they also included the "retained weight". This retained weight is vitally important for penetration.
"The tables below compare ballistic properties and testing data for Winchester Ranger® T-Series™ centerfire handgun ammunition. Results are shown for penetration through several substances, including bare gelatin, four layers of denim, heavy cloth, wallboard, plywood, steel and autoglass."
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Diverdan ><>
Yes, the Black Talon
has since changed names to the more politically correct Ranger name. Here is the web site.
http://www.winchester.com/law/
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Diverdan ><>
Joemoney,
I was a paramedic in Utica, NY for three years before going into the ARMY. At the time the population of Utica was about 200K+ people with the surrounding communities included. I was on the 4th floor of an apartment building going to aid an assault victim and about to exit the elevator when gunshots errupted. The bullets were hitting the elevator door causing convex bumps into the elevator. I never saw who fired because when the doors opened, whom ever was shooting only saw an empty elevator with a stretcher in the center. My partner and I were pinned against the wall holding the "CLOSE DOOR" button. I had a gun shoved in my face on my way to high school. Our ambulances have come back to base with bullet holes in the sides on severl occasions. You don't need to tell me about being on the wrong side of a gun.
Read my lips: The problem is not the gun... The problem is incompetent people and individuals who believe a gun can solve a problem that does not require a gun. Your best weapon is your mouth, but too many people do not realize this. People with poor communication skills who cannot solve their problem with talk, resort to more drastic means to prove their point. Again it all comes down to education.
Have you ever been in a car accident? Did you blame the car or the driver? AND, after the accident did you avoid cars for the rest of your life? There are more stabbings in schools than shootings. Are they banning knives? How about a background check and 7 day waiting period before you can buy a knife?
So what is the answer? I believe gun safety should be taught in schools just as sex education is. Many states have a mandatory gun safety course before you can get a hunting license. This has cut down on hunting accidents. You can't teach someone common sense, but you can teach them the proper way.
Answer me this Joemoney- IF guns are the problem, how come you never ever hear of a someone going bullistic or postal at a gun show? Here you have 1000's of guns on display, full auto, semi-auto, shotguns, handguns, rifles and ammunition. I am sure there are some absolute gun fanatics at these shows just as you would expect to see Trekie fanatics at a Star Trek convention. Yet, no shooting, no fatalities, no postal workers.
Explain that one for me????? Could it be that the type of people who go to these shows have an education about guns?
If you truely are around incompetent people you may believe you shouldn't carry a gun. This is exactly the reason why I DO carry a gun. There are too many people out there who erroneously believe a gun will solver their problems. Some are desperate, some demanding respect. I refuse to be one of their victims.
Chicago has a HUGE gang problem, HUGE! It is home to the GD-ganster deciples, one of the largest and most dangerous gangs in the country. And your answer is to shy away from guns?
If I were you, I would spend more time at the shooting range and less time gabbing on the internet about how "bad" guns are.
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Diverdan ><>
About Triton ammo:
I checked out the web page you linked. Questions I still have would be regarding penetration. Will the fragments penetrate 12"?
There is an area of the body known as the fatal "T" this is an imaginary line in the shape of a T where the top of the T is a line connecting the eyes and runs down the spinal cord. A hit in this area will cause immediate incapacitation and most likely cause death. I question if the Triton fragents will penetrate far enough to reach this vital area, especially since some of this penetration will require traveling through bone.
I also noticed that the Triton bullets are much lighter in grain weight and are traveling very very fast. Fast bullets require more powder and cause more recoil. Competition shooters will use a heavy bullet and reduce the amount of powder to reduce recoil. This helps them get back on target quickly after each shot. Some of those rounds are barely enough to work the slide on the gun and this is exactly what they want.
These Triton rounds remind me of the old "Dumb dumb" rounds where soldiers would cut an "X" into the head of the bullet to cause this effect.
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Diverdan ><>
About the .357 sig.
DPS in Texas was one of the first agencies to re-invent the wheel and go to the .357 sig. As the name states, it was patented by sig arms and was in response to the .40 S&W. I don't have enough information on it to speak intelligently on the subject and I will need to read up some more.
Give me a week to do some research on actual shooting and testing. I do know that it is more costly to reload.
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Diverdan ><>
Premier1
I know this sounds silly and it is, but one of the reasons that police departments "shy" away from the black talon is because of the name. The NAACP was up in arms about the bullet because the name suggested it was to be used on black.
Winchester should have named the bullet something more
"Politically correct" like the Eagle Talon or something.
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Diverdan ><>
Here is the actual FBI case report
obtained through Freedom of Information. I grossly mispelled the suspect's names -
The FBI conducted an administrative inquiry into a shooting incident involving FBI Special Agents and two bank robbery suspects. Special Agents Benjamin P. Grogan and Jerry Dove were killed, along with suspects William Matix and Michael Lee Platt.
http://foia.fbi.gov/shooting.htm
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Diverdan ><>
Maddox -
An autopsy on Maddox showed NO alcohol or drugs in his system. What he did, he did it on pure adrenaline.
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Diverdan ><>
Why the .380 backup weapon-
I mentioned in a previous post that the .380 is not effective in penetrating 12 inches into the body yet I recommend it as a back up gun carried in an ankle holster. If I have to pull my back up gun it means that I have been in a hand to hand combat situation and have had my duty weapon taken from me. A police officer who looses his sidearm is most likely going to be shot and killed with it by the assailant.
The .380 would be used for a multi-shot close contact head or center chest wound which would cause immediate or quick incapacitation. This is about the only use I can see for a .380 handgun, for point blank contact shooting.
The .380 is easily concealed and with an ankle holster, stays secure even during foot pursuits. After a while you forget it is even there. I have seen some officers pull their .380 backup weapon out to shoot an injured dead during a field euthanasia type situation. They use their back up so they don't dirty their duty weapon and have to clean it. Unless you put the .380 very close or directly up to the skull of the deer where the shot causes immediate death, the animal will needlessly suffer and it will take multiple shots elsewhere.
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Diverdan ><>
Follow up about bullets
The FBI also discovered what we all know. A bullet that increases in size causes more damage (creates a bigger hole) and is more likely to cause immediate incapacitation. Therefore a bullet that "mushrooms" upon impact such as a hollow point or soft point is the way to go. I carry 180 grain hydroshok bullets in .40 caliber. The bullet has a center post that aides in penetration and the semi-jacketed bullet stays together upon impact, expansion, and penetration. The .40 has been tested and proven over and over again and is quickly becoming the standard police issue. There are hundreds of documented cases showing the effectiveness of the .40 caliber during acutal police shootings. Black Talons and the 180 Winchester sub-sonic are also excellent 40 cal rounds.
Hunting is a different story. For deer hunting I use a 55 grain .223 Winchester soft point SPX-1, also know as the "Varmit round". I use this round because of the LACK of penetration. If I have to make a long distance shoulder shot, I don't want the bullet going all the way through and damaging the meat on the opposite shoulder. The bullet penetrates deep enough to expand, fragment, and cause immediate incapacitation but does not penetrate far enough to destroy the meat on the opposite side. At close range, I usually make a head shot. If I miss, or the deer moves at the last second, it is not fatally wounded and will survive. A hit and the deer goes down immediately. Those hunters that make "gut shots" or shoot when the deer is not in an optimal position should not hunt. They are wasting the animal which will run off and die some place where the hunter will not find them.
We have a rule at our house. When hunting - if you shoot it you eat it, and don't shoot unless you are sure the shot will bring the animal down immediately. Nothing is wasted.
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Diverdan ><>
About caliber and bullet weight
After the FBI-Miami shoot out where Platt and Maddox shot and killed 2 FBI agents and wounded two other agents, an autopsy determined that Maddox suffered a fatal 9mm wound early on in the gun battle. The FBI agents were pursuing Platt and Maddox for multiple violent homicidal armoured car/bank robberies in the Miami and Dade county areas.
Maddox had been shot in the chest with a 115 grain silver-tip hollow point from a 9mm semi-automatic pistol and the wound was FATAL but not immediately INCAPACITATING. The coroner stated that the wound was fatal EVEN IF MADDOX HAD BEEN SHOT IN THE HOSPITAL EMERGENCY ROOM. After the fatal wound, Maddox was still able to fire an additional 36 rounds and get out of his vehicle twice before finally doing down.
The FBI was forced to re-think about the effectiveness of the standard issue 9mm pistol and what ammo should be used, so they did some testing. They tested the 9mm, .38, .357, .45, and a new caliber called the 10mm. This was a pass or fail test based on 12 inches of penetration using gelatin to simulate human flesh. The mentality at the time was "faster bullets penetrate deeper" and a deeper penetrating bullet is more likely to cause quick incapacitation.
First the gelatin was tested to make sure it was consistent with the human body. Freshly slaughtered pigs were used in comparison with the gelatin and both were shot to find consistency. When the right consistency was found, this gelatin mix was kept throughout the testing.
Next the feds shot through light clothing, heavy clothing, dry wall, car doors, through solid and hollow core doors, and glass. If the bullet penetrated 12 inches into the gelatin, than it was a "pass". If the bullet penetrated less than 12 incues, it was a "fail". Why 12 inches? The FBI believes a bullet must penetrate a minimum of 12 inches into the body to reach the body core where it will most likely cause immediate incapacitation. This is where the body has major organs, bone and large blood vessels. This 12 inch penetration would also be effect on obese individuals. I agree with this 12 inch penetration point. After all, you shoot a person to immediately stop their actions or incapacitate them not to piss them off.
This is the results of the testing.
The 9mm and .38 were almost identical, passing about 67% of the time.
The .357 was less effective with 62% passing.
The .45 passed 96% of the time by penetrating 12 inches and
the 10mm passed an incredible 98% of the time.
More importantly, the FBI learned this - BULLET WEIGHT at a slow speed was MORE EFFECTIVE than a smaller bullet traveling at a higher speed. This is why the .38 beat out the .357. The 10mm was designed as a HOT ROUND for maximum penetration. The FBI found at that a 10mm hollow point travelng at 1200 FPS was LESS EFFECTIVE in penetration than the SAME BULLET travelng at 850 to 900 FPS. Read that again - THE SAME WEIGHT BULLET PENETRATED FURTHER AT SLOWER SPEEDS THAN IT DID AT FASTER SPEEDS.
HOW CAN THAT BE? A faster bullet penetrates further right? WRONG! A faster bullet has a tendency to mushroom quickly and the deforming shoulders of the bullet break off. The remaining body of the bullet having lost weight is too light to penetrate the full 12 inches.
Here is another example. Take a 115 grain 9mm bullet and push it to 1400 fps. The bullet breaks apart on impact and will not penetrate 12 inches. The same bullet slowed down to 800 fps will penetrate further because the deforming bullet remains together. WEIGHT at SUBSONIC SPEEDS was found to be a key factor in the 12 inch penetration standard. With this newfound knowledge, the key was find out what is the best weight bullet and what is the best speed for maximum penetration.
The FBI found that the 10mm was most effective at slower speeds and with this they discovered the didn't need that long brass casing to hold all that gun powder, thus the .40 caliber was developed. The .40 caliber and 10mm bullet are IDENTICAL, the only difference is the .40 caliber round has a shorter casing and uses a standard primer. Smith and Wesson capitalized on this and the round is called the 40 S&W.
This is what else the FBI discovered and recommended.
The FBI recommends that a bullet MUST BE a minimum of 130 grains to be effective and penetrate 12 inches. This automatically rules out the .25 and.380 handguns and most 9mm rounds. So what did Winchester Ammo do? Winchester developed the 147 grain subsonic 9mm round and labeled it "LAW ENFOREMENT USE ONLY". Now you know why there are 147 grain 9mm subsonic rounds.
Several other manufactures followed and developed subsonic heavy grain 9mm rounds to keep the 9mm in the law enforcement market. This is how the .40 caliber pistol was developed and it is what I recommend for personal protection. As a former paramedic from NY, I have seen .380 bullets mushroom out on a skull without penetrating the bone. 22 rounds are very deadly but not immediately incapacitating. .25 caliber round just pisses people off and rarely penetrate bone. A glazer safety round is about as useless as ti*s on a bull. The glazer causes a great deal of superficial damage but little penetration to cause incapacitation. I carry a 40 caliber glock on duty as does my wife. I recommend a .380 ankle holstered back up but I no longer carry one.
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Diverdan ><>
Some observations:
Joemoney mentions in post 1613 that he was in high school 4 years ago and in a subsequent post states he is attending the University of Chicago. He hardly has a vast amount of life experiences and undoubtly has been influenced by some liberal professors. The "big city" mentality is prevelant with him in that "guns are bad" and belong to those hillbilly racist folk. After all he saw it on 20/20 and 60 miutes so it must be true.
My wife got her first 22 rifle on her 6th birthday when she lived in rural east Texas. She was educated early on about firearm safety and how to use firearms properly. Having a firearm was as common as owning a bicycle. Naturally those that live in a rural environment have more opportunity to practice and use firearms. Those in the city therefore sterotype "country folk" as those firearm fanatics because "city folk" lack the practical knowledge and experience with firearms.
How do I know about the big city mentality? I was born and raised in NY and DO KNOW how most "city folk" feel about firearms. After all, they have seen guns on TV as Joemoney has.
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Diverdan ><>
Joe also wrote:
"Guns may or may not be good for society. But answer my question. Do you think gun lovers are typically of the racist type?"
Where do you dream up these stereo types? What is your definition of a gun lover? Because I own a few guns does that make me a gun lover? Therefore am I a racist? You watch too many movies.
I appreciate and respect a fine piece of machinery and the craftsmanship found in some firearms. Along with gun ownership comes the responsibility of keeping the firearm in good working order and in a safe condition/place. An uneducated single gun owner is more dangerous than a gun fanatic who lives and breaths firearms. I am talking about firearm safety and firearm education, not rocket science or master degrees.
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Diverdan ><>
Joe wrote:
"Look at the average ACT/SAT scores and compare the south to the north. You can conclude that the north is more intelligent. Texas has the lowest SAT scores of all. And you can conclude that the south is much poorer (mississippi has the lowest per capita income)."
Southern states have a larger immigrant population. You don't see to many people immigrating from Canada now do you Joe? Did you ever hear of the Cuban boat lift? Most immigrants don't bring a large amount of cash flow from Cuba and South/Central America either. This may come as a surprise to you but these immigrants from Mexico, South America, Honduras, Guatemala, Central America, Costa Rico, and Cuba speak a different language. Unfortunately this puts them at a learning disadvantage from the start in the english speaking schools. Look at the big picture, not just the stats. Anyone can bend statistics to fit what their opinion is and make blanket conclusions.
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Diverdan ><>