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johnny -- examiner not appointed yet... For all we know, after Rosen gets sanctioned tomorrow, maybe we'll get the examiner appointed, or maybe it will wait until exclusivity is over and EC comes up with a POR, then since the numbers will be so much different then Rosen's, JMW will appoint an examiner to get the true numbers.
Johnny -- Susman's objection is weak compared to the disclosure statement?
Wang- I didn't read entire document asking for rescheduling of Disclosure hearing. Does it say anything about dealing with motion of shortening for time to get documents to TPS? Since it was already signed, I assume that JMW is still going to tell Rosen he better hand over some documents soon. Also, I believe that exclusivity still ends on 26th. Can anyone else sound in on that?
Y board -- Very interesting thread related to gifting money to FDIC . Any legal experts want to weigh in?
http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_%28A_to_Z%29/Stocks_W/threadview?m=tm&bn=86316&tid=460056&mid=460056&tof=9&frt=2
PICKSTOCKS -- Interesting concept -- What would the judge do if EC came back with POR that release FDIC of any liability and gave all money to EC, none to bondholders. Would she screw the FDIC or the bondholders?
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229100517000000000022.pdf
Interesting read. It looks like Trust isn't getting documentation they need. If Susman comes in saying the same thing Rosen really needs to be sactioned for this as well.
Wednesday is definitely going to be an interesting day!
Speculator -- If we go around and around for months and months THJMW will not look so honorable or bright. IMO, our main hope is that Solomon's numbers prompt the judge to force the parties to settle or have the examiner appointed, and say all is fair game if we get to the examiner all documents become unsealed, depositions begin, and we WILL get to the true numbers, so you had better make a fair settlement for all parties (except JPM) since they stole billions and billions they need to give back.
Can class action lawsuits include jailtime? I would trade my 60,000 shares to see Rosen's and or Dimon, plus a few of the WMI BOD a**es in jail.
Amended Disclosure Statement --- I haven't gone through it in it's entirety yet, but I didn't see anything about specifics of A vs. L at time of seizure. I saw future projections, but nothing about what it was at time of seizure, other that run on bank kind of stuff. Can anyone fnd the specifics? Thanks.
Dude ... I've been question this all along. If this is true, especially not being able to get refunds because of TARP money, shouldn't the judge know this, instead of Susman having to say anything? This is the kind of thing that is starting to worry me about this case. Either we are wrong on many fronts, or the judge doesn't know the law very well. This hearing should not even be taking place because this POR is such crap, yet here we are, praying that Susman can pull off a miracle.
UZ or others -- Do you have an opinion/fact on what exactly will take place at the hearing on Wednesday? Will JMW rule on new disclosure statement without having time to hear objections, or will she possibly hear objections on Wednesday (oral , not written since the new document was supposedly file yesteday) Or will she possibly set a new date for objections to be heard? Thanks Steel58
Renee -- I agree with your logic, except for the fact that since the judge did award grace at the alllowance of an EC, common sense would say that she wants to make sure that there is legitimately no money for the EC before she approves a plan. The judge SHOULD require that she knows where all the money is coming from for a settlement. If in this case, like many believe that JPM should not be entitled to any tax refunds, then the judge or the UST needs to speak up and say, JPM doesn't get that money -- I don't agree to the plan. She will need to see Susman's numbers before any plan can be signed off upon, IMO. Sure I suppose a judge can break the law also, or cover their eyes to the breaking of the law by another party. If that happens, then I agree commons are screwed.
Renee -- Thanks for the information. The point I am getting at, is that I don't know if a judge has to approve if the parties you say have agreed all do. The fact that the judge allowed an EC means she wants them to have a voice. If all the other parties agree (not EC and I'm not sure if UST must agree), the judge can still say "that this plan stinks, might possibly be illegal (JPM shouldn't be able to get tax refunds snce they got TARP), so I am not going to sign off on it until I see all the numbers".
Besides at this point, with all the objections that must be allowed to this new disclosure, won't the period of exclusivity run out and then the EC can present another plan? If the numbers are as most of us here believe, then wouldn't the judge have to approve the EC plan, since all debtors, creditors, will be made whole, as well as equity. With this plan, JPM will lose, which the judge shouldn't care about if the numbers are true.
hestheman --- At this point, why would Susman wait for exclusivity to end? Shouldn't he come forward with everything now to give the judge reason after reason not to approve any ridiculous plan
Wouldn't the fact that judge OK'd EC make it harder for her to approve the PLAN without EC getting their say? Regardless of what any document says, judge, as you say, still makes final ruling, so why should she aprrove this plan without letting EC do their job?
so what is that 150 million in new offer -- 1 cent on the dollar?
If there is another plan out there, what is the deadline for objections to this one? Or can JMW just ask anyone, including EC who objected to the first one whrn they are in court on Wednesday " Do you object to this one also?" If enough do object again, at that point, kick Rosen out for good.
PICKSTOCKS --Great read --- I have just one question (maybe 2 :] ). If we get settlement and agree to go away, how will that stop the governemnt from probing JPM, which apparently was just announced yesterday? If they can still get into trouble even without us at the table, why would they ever settle? I can't see the government not having access to ANY document, even the ones we appear to not be able to get.
bet0001970 -- Reading your post, I never would have thought of the possibility that JPM could end up going under before we would get our money. If that were to happen, that would be the biggest irony of all time. Hopefully we could atleast manage to go back into business and getting out of BK.
Either that or this witchhunt against JPM is the most creative government sideshow/conspiracy/trick ever set up!!!!!!!
Sidedraft -- While I agree with your assessment that the cases are completely different as far as what to us looks like clearly highway robbery, the fact is that since we have same judge, we are now relying on a hope of justice rather an expectation of it. No matter how clear cut our case is, we are at the judge's mercy. Pizzaman brought up a case which definitely gives us food for thought.
Again, my feeling tells me that how Judge Walrath handles this joke of an updated POR/Disclosure statement will indicate our fate. That fact is kind of concerning, considering we all feel that it is just a matter of time before we should be declared victorious. If she allows all these antics of Rosen to continue, IMO, she is just putting on a show and will ultimately defeat us with that classic, "it was close...." that she used in turning down the examiner.
Rickszy _ I don't think any of us are quite sure what to make of possible revised POR. post 198040 has link to document where it mentioned. I don't know if they were referring to fact that they got letter just as late as we did, or if they got letter about REVISED POR that we haven't either been notified of or even seen. I am greatly concerned about the circus atmosphere this case seems about to take. I feel the only way we can win is if the letter of the law is followed. Otherwise, we have no chance if Judge Walrath falls for any of rosen's tricks.
Zilla and others who may wish to comment- Since none of us have seen a revised POR, and it is only possibly mentioned in one of the responses (objection / right to discuss/ whatever those documents that have been flying all day) -- If one does actually exist -- Rosen is going to have to file it with the court. Will he file it tomorrow, with possibly more sprcific numbers, or will he request another delay? Either way, this is the true test for Judge Walrath IMO. If she at all sides with him after these blatant attempts to make a mockery of these whole proceedings, we as common equity holders can be in great trouble. She needs to make an example of Rosen and make a ruling in favor of EC soon. Any thoughts?
never-again -- is that a new one, or did the creditors in the document only receive their notice at the same time most of us did?
Exclusivity -- I am bumping my own post, because I am really interested to see if anyone thinks it possible that Judge Walrath would even consider extending the exclusivity period in this case. I saw this Visteon article this morning and it gave me concern. If she is interested in seeing this case end, how in the world can she extend exclusivity?
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-05-12/visteon-keeps-reorganization-control-as-protest-fails-update2-.html
Thanks. Steel58
Does anyone have a reason to believe that Judge Walrath will extend the exclusivity? or unlike Visteon, the fact that we already have the equity committee will force her to move this along?
Can any legal experts parallel our case to Visteon in terms of chances of actually winning anything?
Visteon exclusivity article in Business Week
Anyone have an opinion as to the chances of American National Insurance actually getting a jury trial? EOM
hestheman -- In ordr to find out what's left, don't we need to find out what there was to begin with? If we find out that what was there is not equal to what's left, and there is no way to account for that, I would hope that more discovery would be needed/permitted.
Otherwise, I will cite this case, when I refuse to ever pay taxes again. I will just show them my checking and savings accounts with a balance of zero, and say I didn't earn any money. Sure there will be forms that my employer sends to the government, but those can't be important since I don't have any money now.
Stock Manipulation:
This posted on the Y. I tend to very much agree. The more I think about, the more we must be crazy to invest at all. We must all have either nerves a steel or enjoy the thrills of being scared, like a hanuted house or a roller coaster. What will it take before they are forced to let this run? Also, this again leads to the question as to exactly how much Susman will be allowed to "uncover" before either a settlement for us, or we are ruled against and out of the money?
This was posted by Swordsmanzorro on the FAZ board.
Massive Fraud
6-May-10 06:32 pm Almost amusing, if it was so pathetic. A miserable excuse that the sudden drop then rebound was due to some trader glitch. And people are buying this cr*p. Fox was showing the tape. It went from down 400, to down 500, then 600, then 700, then 750 then hit 958 or so, then it gradually over a few seconds came back up the same way. This was a massive crash and dash by some inside group of brokers and banksters. It was not instantanious. It was too fast for the public to get in on, but if you were sitting at a traidng desk waiting to pick this move up it would have been easy to make a lot of money on the way down, then back up. Proctor and Gamble(one stock of 30) could not have done this by itself. We are talking about over 500 points in about 30 seconds each way. No the answer to this will be about as likely as the answers were coming as to who was trading in anticiaption of 911 or who made some much money on some big out of the money option bets on Lehman, Bear, Etc.......just more of a sign as to why the public soon will have absolutely nothing to do with the stock market.
Sounds EXACTLY like what happened to the Wamu stocks on 4/12 and 5/5 here on the pinks. I'm beginning to think that everything is rigged in favor of the big boys. At least they used to be somewhat covert or clandestine, now it's just obvious, blatant, and in your face manipulation. The crooks have no concern for any consequence or repercussions whatsoever; it's sickening.
Ornate -- Your Disney land example is good, but I assume my parents are doing what is right, not what they feel like, or not what someone else told them to do. I do not see the judge acting in a parental way. As a parent, you have to tell your kids, either we will see everything in Disney Land or we are going to Disney Land for 2 days and we may see everything, something or not much at all, depending on circumstances. If I decide to go to Disney Land for 2 days in early December because I know that's when the park is less crowded and I can see everything in two days, then when I get there and hand the Disney employee my tickets, it turns out Disney decide they want more people to come to their park, so they can make more money off t-shirt sales, concessions and parking, that they decide to let everyone into the park for free the two days I am there. Now I have a small problem. I won't get to see everything and all these people got in for free, while I paid $100.00 a ticket for 5 tickets. I then go to the customer service window and ask for a refund since it is free day, and they say they don't issue refunds. Do you think I am going to be happy? Was justice served in my eyes?
Is this overanalyzing? Of course, but I like many others have been invested for quite sometime. What looks obvious to us, is not turning out to be that way. We want many things out of this case. I think the two most prevailing are justice and money. Most of us are now losing money and don't see justice anywhere in sight. When you look at it from our perspective, there is no overanalyzing. That is all we can do while we wait, wait, wait.
It has been a pleasure to learn many perspecives on this board, but in all honesty I would rather meet some after justice is served and we get the rewards of our DD and our initial investment risks, so we can talk on friendlier terms and leave this ordeal far behind me. My oldest son is a teenager and wants to be a lawyer. I am half proud and half scared that he may end up like a Rosen
Suprabiz2 -- You treat shareholders like a bunch of whiners. All they want is fairness. While some have held pre-seizure (I hope you can recoup everything you invested), most of us have invested post-seizure after doing DD, believing that the bank had more money that is being stated, thus, our shares are undervalued, so we intend to make money. If all the facts come to light and justice is served, we will either walk away rich or at least satisfied that our gamble didn't payoff. All we want are all the facts. If the judge prevents that from happening, why should we not turn our back on that injustice.
If I buy a car for $10,000.00 and sell it for $20,000.00, not only am I supposed to pay taxes on the money I made selling the car, but I better have paperwork to prove I actually paid $10,000.00 (instead of $5000.00) for it, so that I am paying enough in taxes. The car dealership has the paperwork to prove that I paid $10,000.00. Therefore all the needed facts and numbers exist.
For the sale of Washington Mutual, the facts and numbers are all there. The only problem is that they are missing, hidden, or something that is preventing the facts from being public. The question is why. My belief is that the judge's first question about the examiner should have been "EC -- Will an examiner help you get everything you need to show this court whether or not you are entitled to any money" After the yes answer, the judges next statement should have been "Rosen, either you give EC everything they need in one week or an examiner will be appointed. If I hear that you prevented even one piece of evidence from going to the EC, I will allow the UST to appoint an examiner and open up the possibility of allowing the cost of this case to be part of any settlement since you are wasting my time".
Her next statement should have been, "once all the facts are given to me by both parties I will look them over. If they match, I will rule accordingly on who gets how much based on what is available, with no appeals. If they do not match, the billing on this case will be halted until ALL sides reach an agreement. If after six months, an agreement cannot be reached, I will rule that Washington Mutual/JP Morgan/Chase/whatever will be sold, with all parties in this case splitting the proceeds"
Her final statement should have been " Don't f**k with me again"
Since none of those happened, it is impossible not to question the proceedings thus far.
Windfall -- I agree with you 100%. It is only common sense. That is the problem. I stated in my previous post that the case should never have gotten this far. The facts should have been allowed to be revealed. Someone is not allowing that to happen. That is the injustice Susman or whoever must overcome if shareholders are to see any return. The judge needs to make sure ALL records are allowed (not just saying "don't test the court's patience", but allowing Susman to depose ANYONE he needs to, etc). If not, we have very little chance of winning
Chiron -- I am not going to accuse the jusge of anything. This case should never have gotten this far. If WAMU was sold for an unfair value to JPM, there are numbers to prove it. Anything that is preventing those numbers from coming out is unjust. Once ALL the documents are given to all parties in this case and any depositions, emails, phone calls that are needed to be examined have been examined, the facts will speak for themselves. This shouldn't be a "he says -- she says" -- all the facts are there! Just show them. Once that is done, the judge will have to rule according to the facts.
Anyone who has been paying attention to this case, knows that all the facts have not been revealed. Until that they are, I will not believe justice is being served and there are many who are to blame for that.
Speculator -- FF down almost 2%
http://www.quote.com/global/stocks/quote.action?s=WMI-FRA&ref=60
Rickszy -- I would have a very hard time believing Walrath would give WMI an examiner. I thought everything Susman/Solomon would find is based on information WMI already had. If there is enough of a A>L discrepancy and WMI says something about it, I would hope someone gets fitted immediately for their prison garb for hiding those numbrs in the first place and has to pay some serious court costs for wasting all this time.
Garyhalvo -- Read firs link from you post about foreclosure and JPM. from article :
never-again -- I, like yourself read much more here than I post. I try to learn and become more informed as this journey continues. Quick question if you don't mind. Can you share your thoughts on the possibility of the change from Chapter 11 to chapter 7 actually being agreed upon by the judge? Thanks.
Decon1401 --If she accepts any POR before the EC has had their "discovery time", then I can see lawsuit after lawsuit and this thing never ending. Hopefully Susman will put up enough roadblocks to prevent that from happening.
Remington --- Would you mind clarifying your reason for posting the article about 2019? I'm not sure if it meant ot be informational, or if you think there is a chance that we will somehow be denied either 2019 or recognition as a party in the case, or maybe you're analyzing some other aspect. Thanks.
Uzual or others -- Has anyone been able to gather from Walrath's ruling whether Solomon/Susman can do things like depose Dimon and Bair, or can they only simply look at all the paperwork that has been gathered, which I'm sure non exists that says a 300 billion bank was sold for 1.9 billion and shouldn't have been sold?
Several questions --- Anyone with serious answers feel free to answer.
1. HAs shareholder meeting actaully been approved in Washinton State?
2. Can Solomon/Susman/etc. look at all documents from WMI, creditors, JPM, US Senate, FDIC, etc, or are they limited to what they can access?
3. Is everything over for us (neagtively)if motion for Chapter 7 is not denied?
Thanks all. This journey seems to be continually going in unexpected ways. I appreciate all the information/knowledge so many have shared.