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100% agreed....I just can't get past the fact that it was slightly over 7 years from the time Wave first shipped the ETS- embassy security system shipped with DELL earlier- to the announcement of the Credant purchase...especially when they provide many of the same functionality.
Credant had been a tech partner for DELL for awhile prior to this sale, and I can remember a few of us that were brow beat by many longs on the boards for even suggesting that Credant was viable competition.
I think we need to look at facts here. We know that prior to DELL basically cutting ties they renegotiated a lower rate.
The customers either found the Credant solution worked more fluid for them, the wave solution wasn't working properly, or their wasn't a market for the product.
If there wasn't a market for it I think DELL could have kept cutting pricing to Wave, since it was already in the box and at the end of the day would still have cost less than the acquisition of a company that offers the same basic service for a non-existent market.
They had a seven year relationship with Wave. To see how the terms of the agreement have changed speaks far great volumes than any DD ever has.
Dig...I think history,and I know wavoids hate the word because it's the boogie man- as it pertains to DELL going back was exactly that, a gambit. I think they were caught up in this new technology right from the start and I believe they felt it was going to give them the leg up.....until nobody was buying in. I see their investment in the purchase of Credant maybe along the same lines as a futures bet as well.
For the life of me I cannot figure out why the hell they never made a serious pitch to get Wave when the shares were so friggin cheap. Hell they were already in the box, probably in greater numbers than Credant.
I can only think of two scenarios and one is that the insiders wouldn't entertain any attempt by DELL and the second one speaks to what DELL thought of the product which isn't very reassuring if you are holding shares.
If that's the case, one could make an argument that Wave is pushing a different set of product..but I think maybe this in and of itself could make the case for all product they were pushing across ALL product lines during this time frame, and the reasons we have heard Solms talk about retooling these offerings. I think the DELL move verifies that in my mind.
Dig..to be honest after seeing the names Wave has been associated with and the lack of sales or traction I can only believe that these companies are partnering with Wave as sort of an insurance if this takes off not when.
Look at the time frame that has passed since most of us have been here ..look at the technology that has come and gone in that same time!
The Samsung deal is one that I find very curious. They are already 2 years past signing that which I found surprising because I hadn't realized that much time has passed 27 months actually. I don't believe there have been revenue inroads with them to date.
I don't feel it's unfair to say Samsung is about as aware as any company in the technology sphere and very aware of what the future may hold,or at least being able to position themselves to take advantage of the new technologies.
Some saw the 15 year contract as a boon to Wave, maybe the 15 year contract is like a huge futures play for them that costs them nothing and could expire worthless.
Wavedreamer I agree the field is still wide open in the TC space. That is why I think it's a damn shame the DELL situation has collapsed. I have often felt that DELL dragged along wave as a way to hedge it's bet in the trusted space. Dell provided cache to Wave and wave provided nothing to DELL...It was obviously cheaper for DELL to purchase a rival company.
Just think for a second about this..the shares were incredibly cheap and the product was already established in the box..should have been a no brainer.
At the end of the day what is overlooked and hurts the most in my eyes is that you had the in with an established OEM the end user is familiar with and has probably personally owned over the last 15 years. That familiarity is going to be a huge deal to companies dipping their toes in the water of TC
Wavedreamer....To your Samsung post I would say this. We thought the same thing when DELL put Wave inside the box.. While that was quite a coup, it did not stop the dilution and the bleeding of cash from the company and shareholders. The Samsung deal is already over 2 years old, May 30, 2012, and has produced hardly anything in measurable revenue. I'd bet the DELL revenues were much higher over that same timeframe and if my recall isn't too foggy, the Wave product was only in laptops at that point but ICBW. I get the impression the wavoids feel that Samsung would offer a greater array of opportunity.
Sandisk "To provide the ease of encryption to everyone, SanDisk is including a license for Wave's EMBASSY Security Center with every X300s. While Windows 8 provides native support for hardware encryption through eDrive, most corporations are still using Windows 7 and that only provides software based BitLocker encryption. Moreover, eDrive has a rather strict set of hardware and software requirements, which can be a dealbreaker if dealing with older hardware with no UEFI and/or TPM support. In addition to Wave, the X300s has been certified by McAfee, WinMagic, Check Point, Softex, and Absolute for Opal encryption in case you or your company already has security software."
Yes I am well aware there are a few names on that list that Wave is associated with, and still the reveues from the SED barely moves the meter.
I see articles touting the revenue growth of Sandisk's SSD line and I see growth touted in Micron, but I don't see any mentions of the headway this new technology is having on these established brands as it pertains to the revenues.
That is a problem. This company has had alliances with large companies in the past that amounted to slightly more than nada.
At the end of the day what good are these names if they can't even contribute an ante?
BP..what if..............
What if he applies for the job and once he gets in realizes what many of us have said for years that haven't toed the message board line? Believing the opportunity and then being faced with reality, the reality that led to the removals of those in charge.
What if the dilemma he discovered was one of a company that flitted from one product to the next and those products need major retooling to work in an environment outside of a testing phase?
What if those products were marketed towards a vision shared only by the former CEO and not those of the marketplace?
What if that was the vision that was sold to the investors?
What if these are the reasons?
It has everything to do with decades starved shareholders searching for needles. Many end up as trips down the rabbit hole. A desperate search for vindication. This search has been the only game in town for years. The real life equivalent of the year-end bonus scene from "Christmas Vacation".
Blue, what constitutes truth is different things to different people. For some it's numbers, others it's something completely different. One would think after so many years it would be easier to spot what passed for as more truth than the other.
Dig this is like a circle game because we don't know if the strategy was bad under the former leadership or if it's technology.
I often felt that the reason DELL chose wave was they seemed to be ahead of the game so to speak, and in truth this was a fantastic hedge for DELL in case the market was going to take off. The outlay for DELL was really minimal in the bigger picture.
Now one can argue semantics but I think the purchase of Credant by DELL was a huge red flag. Even if wave was not providing any added benefit to the bottom line DELL still thought enough to purchase a solution in this space in spite of that. They obviously found some value there that they did not see in wave.
The takeout interest in my eyes is different for the take out company vs.wave. The buyer at this point is looking for value added IMO, far different than from wave's perspective.
In this scenario I have to believe there are companies who can do the DD on the product via patents etc. that can determine the value on something other than the amount of sales wave has been able to generate....ie a known brand combined with that product, being able to roll the cost in....
These companies all have very smart folks within their companies.
Dig I could be wrong here but isn't there shares owned by those in the company that matter more than the common shares?
To make matters worse, investors really have no clue at this point as to where this company is. Is it a stretch to say that the picture of the company that was put together from the words of the former regime and the DD that was cobbled together in conjunction with that is a wee bit tainted? The only DD that mattered over the last 15 years is what could be gleaned from the releases the company made through the SEC and that by the few posters who gave credence to those numbers when they were discussing the company.. everything else amounts to white noise.
As it sits today, you have a ceo in damage repair mode who had the fortune of maximizing an opportunity to inject some cash into the coffers-at the expense of shareholders yet again. He also will not benefit from the largesse afforded the former CEO by the shareholders because of the amount of time and patience that have been lost..and much of that because it seems much of what these shareholders were led to believe wasn't what it was at face value.
The question that needs to be answered IMO is why wasn't this company taken out when the shares were so cheap if the technology is so dominant? They are still cheap today if that is the case...
Want to argue against it happening under sks? Way force the company to come up with severance pay-I know it was a negotiated deal- while you are still collecting a salary with the company realistically teetering financially? I think it points more towards a dearth of interest rather than a magnanimous gesture towards seeing it through and rewarding shareholders.
Every action under the former leadership shows otherwise.
To an extent yes. If any number of those did not then that would given some clarity to the reason the product hasn't sold. There have been enough reports over the years of the off putting behavior of prior management so you could easily use that as an excuse. If they did it certainly lays the blame at the foot of the product...
Dig....I have seen those numbers that surround thse renewals. I am not near a pc to go back and check. Were those numbers ones that were gleaned from comment, from wags off the quarterly numbers or actual hard numbers they reported? I will be the first to say that if it wasnt in black and white through a document I would be suspect of anything and everything that came under the sks regime.
Blue given what has arisen about the truthines of what was fed the shareholder base, can one speak with certainty that every trial and test actually took place?
Blue, those that have pumped this stock for years don't even have the hope that was dangled from the former management team because that has all been shown to amount to exactly what many of us believed for years- a figment. The facts bear this out, the lacks of sales is my DD on the words before Solms..WBS........
Makes one wonder what was the underlying reason for those companies you mentioned GM,BP, PcW to have selected wave at the time, and why they never moved further.....
The message that is coming from the company today is the one that should have been generated 5 or 6 years ago and the enemy is the expectation set from the exiled
This isn't just a little drop at this point with lots of time left in the day today.......
Exactly Zen and that was my point. The longs seem to just buy all the time..the run up because they are scarred now and don't want to miss the run up, on the price drops because for years these have been touted as buying opportunities. The next time the longs take a wait and see will be the first time.
The reality here is that in spite of what has been churned out on the boards for years, this group has really had to start at square one. The company has next to zero name recognition with IT people. The couldn't find away to monetize their relationship with DELL beyond getting in the box. That is shameful when you consider how many organizations purchase quantities of computers from them across their organization at one time. How hard could it have been if they were working in tandem with DELL to have made a call on any of those companies over the years?
With all the money wasted over the years how hard would it have been to take one Super Bowl ad out. Cue a house voice says is your data safe? House gets strafed by explosion fire, anything you can think of and smoke clears and the only stuff left standing are the devices which have the wave product in it. Stupid yes but gets the point across to a mass audience without making them think too much.
The wavoids just need to face the facts that every tact that was used prior gained them zero ground and zero sales. From the sounds of it they also turned off some potential customers as well.
These are some very serious obstacles to try and overcome, and by reading the boards I rally don't think a majority of the longs appreciate this. Could be they don't want to believe the former regime left them in this shape, they believe the dd more than what is going on in the real world, or just fatigue from watching this play out for so many years.
The most damning to me is the DELL relationship. The cost to DELL was minimal and I still believe they put wave in as their hedge in this market. Question is given what they paid for Mcafee and Infineon given the cost to them on a quarterly basis they really had to decide their was zero value to them to continue to carry wave inside the box .
When you think about the value of the core offering under the sprague regime and what DELL shelled out for the acquisitons that year and how does that reflect on what DELL thought of the product and maybe the feedback they received from customers, or for that matter the lack of customers? Or was this a reflection on dealing with the company in general?
Either way I have to believe DELL could have purchased this company for far less than what they acquired these for.
Anyway here is some DD with meat on the bone that probably explains why they did it from a DELL SEC
consolidated financial statement
"During Fiscal 2013, Dell acquired Quest Software Inc. ("Quest Software"), SonicWALL Inc. (“SonicWALL”), Wyse Technology, Inc. ("Wyse Technology"), AppAssure Software, Inc., Clerity Solutions, Inc., Make Technologies Inc., Gale Technologies, and Credant Technologies. The total purchase consideration for all of these acquisitions was approximately $5.0 billion in cash for all of their outstanding shares. "
and then this
". For the fiscal year ended February 1, 2013, the results of all businesses acquired during Fiscal 2013 contributed $763 million to Dell's net revenue"
If only people would have seen through the genius at the time. I hope everybody realizes possibly how much better off this company could have been had anybody called BS on his deals in hand mumbo jumbo so many years ago, or flood excuse, or take your pick.....
Zen..another case in point.. Look at the comment of "another first time poster" I am a buyer on the dips in the am........a lot of that buying is wavoids period. Still.
Zen if you ask me a combination of a few things. The moment traders got it moving up-this is all automated and probably trading profits on those same shares intra day as long as the volume would support it.
Wavoids.... I don't think one can under estimated the anticipation the wavoids have to have the bucket loaded before this thing takes off. How many times have we sen this over the years and how many times have we seen the participants on the boards comment that they have bought. I am sure they have family and friends all in on this stock, along with others that don't participate on the boards.
It has to be true because there has always been support at least somewhat for the stock itself, if not so much for the products.
The dream-a pipe dream some would say, has always been the greatest elixir as far as this stock has been concerned. So much so it overshadowed everything that needed to be taken into consideration when evaluating the company.
Look, I don't even consider posts by people who say the stock is a POS, it's going bankrupt, you are going to lose it all noise you have posted for the last 15 years. Anybody who can't see that for what it's worth is too wrapped up here.
There was never any reason to believe this stock and those benchmarks that are used to determine value in other equities didn't apply or mesh. It was lain bare for anyone who looked. There are those who didn't want to look, didn't want to listen to any of that..and the shame of it all was that sort of fiscal prudence was even neglected by those inside the company at the time..like it didn't matter.
There are those who still follow that blueprint IMO, and that includes buying so we don't miss the run up..even though we have holdings in 5 and 6 figures.........and some of those holding on and other who came late to that party selling at a loss on the way down while the automated trading guys are long gone........
HeavyD...one argument will surely be laid to rest under Solms leadership and that will be whether there was interest in the product or not. And in a reasonable amount of time. The smart money would bet against this quarter, but one should see the rumblings before the end of this year going into next if it is to be something sustainable.
If there is negligible interest...and this will be a truer test than the last half decade because one could make the argument that the interest was artificial because they had the agreement with DELL and one could support that argument by the lack of recurring revenues off that product and the fact DELL has moved away from being the conduit for wave's product, it will certainly become visible rather quickly.
One thing the shareholders can take away from this is that I don't believe the new group will be selling a bill of goods to the shareholders in the name of a non existent pipeline, unbelievable undeserved pay and perks the old regime enjoyed and the total fleecing of a drooling kowtowing shareholder base waiting for the pot of gold to appear.
The things that have been done to this point have been to repair a very fractured level of trust between the company and it's shareholders and probably more importantly, possible institutional type investors who they will need very much going forward. This is unlike the pariahs that the former regime was in bed with who profited at every turn at the troft at a great cost to the shareholders, which may I remind many never included the family, friends, and board of directs combined approached a double digit number of outstanding shares.
You read commentary on these boards about how people within the industry draw blanks when it comes to the wave name. A shame and that falls on the regime that was ousted. For how many years I can remember reading about these companies and these groups wave was working with I had never heard of, and then had to search the bowels of the internet tubes to find something about them. Poster would run with it and after all these years so many of those names have been relegated to the dustbin of cyberspace.
The low hanging fruit was probably going into these companies, listening to the problems they were having and tweaking the solution to fit them instead of trying to shoehorn everybody into the solution they were pushing-no exception.
The low hanging less work fruit was flying to Europe on the shareholders dime and making announcements with alliances that had zero impact-FINREAD anyone?
Kid Card how many of those actually moved????
The success or failure here will be measurable and apparent.
It won't have to be googled.
Cypher, I have hardly been the biggest cheerleader for the company over the past few years. I think one needs to appreciate the extent to which the Dell revenue has dried up over your time frame. Couple that with the the words coming from the ASM about the state of some of the othr product and I think this is the reality to this time. A clearer picture should appear going forward for better or worse and Q3 and Q4 should provide better clues if you compare to the prior year.
The questioning that probed deeper that might have revealed these questionable things seemed to always be quelled by the motive of the poster and the offering of the next carrot to be had.
I still contend IMO that a large part of the holders of this equity watched as others around them hit big winners on the tech bubble roller coaster and for whatever reason hitched their wagon to this equity and held on waiting for that big score.
They were swayed by the pedigree of the names aligned with the company. The investor base was exploited plain and simple by all the Spragues, regardless of what Peter claims today. The names, at the end of the day were akin to Willie Mays heading back home to NYC and flailing around the outfield in the 73 series providing nothing other than a past resume.
To sell this raped and pillaged long base on the merit of dilution as a preferred means of raising capital was egregious in every aspect, and those that touted this on the boards should be ashamed. The truth is they couldn't have raised a red cent any other way.
Under Solms, it's the very first time the investors are being dealt with in a truthful fashion. Think about that for a hot minute when you realize what product is being pushed.
There is a truth out there, and all the telling and rewriting by those over the years cannot bury what has transpired. Your reality cannot change that, but enjoy that amongst your shrinking circle. SKS is gonna have another toy for you to fund soon. Enjoy.
Alea I think it is very simple. The compensation package for the work of the BOD almost seems unprecidented. The near impossible task of getting removed from sitting on the board.
One likes to discount the message board, but the sanitizing of opinions surely allowed this sort of behavior to go on unabated for years when those who questioned were always greeted by motive, while those wielding the banning and deleting were not.
They were embolden by a shareholder base that was buying into the bigger picture..the dollar bill on the fishing line they could see but always out of reach
Alea..it almost seems as if the game was to keep moving onto the next thing, kept the excitement and expectation high--the teloscopic view of which you speak....For years I was saying it was the equivalent of the old dollar bill on the fishing line....
The greatest dis-service was done to the longs by the know it all DD providers. This really should have been an easy mark to uncover, but they either were in to deep and chose not to see the truth, or they were benefiting by taking advantage and profiting of those who were too naive or too caught up in the fable that was being weaved. Damn shame.
There are very simple lessons that should be taken away from the chapter just closed and hopefully those were learned and learned well.
And you are just looking at the frustrstion they had to feel about the product line. Throw in the disconnect in the public words and what they saw inside the building. Now mix in watching the bags and bags of cash that they rewarded themselves with. I am amazed the fsmily could get thebtrunk to close, let alone not getting shived after all these years.
Under this new regime GG brings zero to the table IMO. His value was that his view was in lockstep with SS. Forward looking and always looking for the next thing with no follow thru on what was the next big thing just weeks prior. He was also wanted for his exposure to a whole group of possible investors they might not reach through his news letter and the connection was one the GG disciples could make without much touting outside that circle. He is the bull with tits to this new era.
Alea, I think many of us becsme frustrated by the disconnect between the words and the result. The longer this played out fed that belief. I would like to believe that is on the cusp of change now. What everybody has to come to grips with here besides the financial losses that have accumulated over the course of years is a very real trust deficit that exists. How much damage was inflicted we have no idea. How many times was a possible deal with a company mentioned as imminent and what if contact with that company in reality never got beyond the exchange of business cards? How far fetched is to to believe the sales ptch was so far off the mark and the product was presented in such manner that a potential customer turned the company away because it couldn't see or understand the benefit. I think this is some of the hurdles Solms and team are encountering
It brings the credibility of every long who refused to acknowledge anyone who had questions that veered from the outcome they so desired. The animosity beteween the posters grew from those very positions, and not from a desire to just provoke and attack. Alomst every question posed by many are now being shown to have merit
Entitled,privilege, elitest, and exploiter. These are the words to describe the leadership of the former ceo. Entitled to the spoils, the company and shareholders be damned. The companies should be privileged to use the product hence the horrible presentation and what seems to be a lacking in the product being rectified now. The perceived privilege of the shareholders to take part in buying these shares time and tome again. An elite attitude that refused to change the product for the market and allow them to believe thet could just introduce new product and believe the end user didn't get it , when it was exactly the other way around. Exploited the shareholder base for financial gain and through the message boards for all in longs to keep the shareholders engaged in a future outcome that had no real chance had things stayed status quo. Now you see all four laid bare in this chadder situation.
Alea new company new approach..maybe. Impressions from old dance partners maybe the hardest obstacle. The face and mouthpiece of the company for nearly a decade and a half is no more. If there is a shred of truth in anything being reported by those at the ASM, there is a lot more for this company to overcome than get the product into the market.
Alea, I would like to go back and see if he had written about wave in that letter at the time he made his purchase.
Too many of the longs thought those running the company had their best interest at hand. And why not-when those running the company reach out on a message board to shareholders, when there is a perceived hierarchy of investors on those boards that seem to have an in with those same people, and you have self appointed tech gurus who have the final say in the eyes of those same investors it makes for a very lethal situation. Lethal in growing your investment cash.
Lethal to the opinions that differ from the status quo.
Forward looking pertains to both types of investors.
Those who hold the old regime to blame for everything. They are gone the business practices seem to be 180 from what they were. Hell even the website has a new look. Last order of business for me would be seeing them relocate from Lee.
Those who hold the old regime in higher regard than the new. Pane by pane the new CEO seems to be breaking out the windows in that glass house and obliterating the strawmen they used. Another fell today with the announcement of share purchasing.
It would be very difficult to make an argument going forward had the old group remained this company would be a going concern now and in the future.
This is the first real hope many shareholders have had in years.
Player, quite a few years ago I can remember trying to rebuke those claims that they could not buy. I was following CECE at the time and they were nailing down million dollar after million dollar contract in China for their pollution control product. President, directors etc were all buying on or either side of the day the news was put out. A good chunk of those posts of mine were deleted.
Pretty sweet when you consider the lengths many of the long shareholders went to defend nearly every move that was made by this family. Unbelievable.
Waveduke..spot on about the payments...
There was always a disconnect between the words and the result that chased me out of my position. Something seemed not quite right to me. For what it's worth, the actions on certain employees in the company and some of the posts on the boards I get the feeling there is far greater expectation and structure now in place. I think the conundrum of the product or the process of introducing the product to business won't be a question much longer.
Speaking of pricing yourself for success ...the one thing that has chapped me for years was the lack of insider buying. Not only were they not putting their own money up, but by virtue of funding this company by the selling of shares which were purchased by many shareholders, they weren't even spending the shareholders money that backed the checks they were cashing.
I found it very unreasonable to pour another dime into this stock if those taking a paycheck wouldn't in effect spend those same dollars as well. To make matters worse I saw something to the effect that there was very minimal participation in the ESOP-I believe less than 30% is what I saw posted by somebody who is a well respected poster.
Only 26% of employees participated in the employee stock option program in 2013. Down from 2012 and 2011.
If the employees in the organization aren't buying shares, why should the long shareholder continue to purchase on the open market?
It would seem not a stretch to say they were far more qualified to make a sound investment decision on this equity from the unique position they have, than any investor on these boards that have to base information from other posters and how any information from the company can be digested.
Both those methods have been severely flawed for many, many years now.
Waveduke, history is litered with very large corporations that have ignored risk and bodily injury to the consumer based on a risk assessment. You have car manufacturers that have allowed defective product into the marketplace, asbestos in product etc.
Only when the cost breaks into the pocketbook does change occur. Look at the spin coming from Target. One they made it a huge point to say that they have had no instances on their RED branded store cards, and only found some instances on one of the three types of cards they offer. Two they are working very hard to get the point across that the consumer will not be liable for any fraudulent charges. Thirdly, the CEO was talking about who and what portion the parties would be responsible for.
So what you are going to have here is the consumer being made whole and being warned about being more vigilant- checking the credit report going forward and getting it monitored free for a year and not being liable. You have not a single company bearing the full weight of this, so the full impact may not be felt until this breach becomes a distant memory.
There is no doubt the company's involved are on pins and needles here, but it's about how the consumer reacts going forward. Target said business is just about where it was prior to the announcement. They say they have fixed the problem. It is the cost of doing business.
The loss of business is what will force the issue, not the monetary losses. These losses are looked at today as a cost of doing business, a business risk. The pain threshold hasn't been breached.
And another thing to consider. In a crisis situation, I have a very difficult time believing that a company in the midst of this kind of potential PR and corporate nightmare is going to turn it's security solution over to an untested entity.
This is why the business direction under the former CEO has really placed an anchor around the company in this environment IMO.
It seemed that much smaller business opportunity was shunned for the home run, a large portfolio of many small end users along with the big wins they have could go a long way in this market today.
Much further than a binder of demos and trade shows..........
WD I speak from direct knowledge that gets acquired from a product liabillity law firm, this isn't speculation and your points are very valid, but the cost always trumps everything you write in the first paragraph and that figure is far larger than you,I or any reasonable person imagine it to be.
Target CEO specifically mentioned EMV technology and said there seemed to be a push in the industry for it to be in place by 2015.
Here's your ad that could have put the money squandered on pet projects to good use.
Superbowl is coming up. A rapid succession of headlines about data breaches underneath
"Since 2006 laptop and personal computers have had a chip called the trusted platform module, or TPM, that was designed to protect your data once it was turned on. We are Wave Systems and we have made the software since that chip became a reality that will allow you to harness all benefits this secure chip can offer. This is but one of a series of security solutions we can offer for you and your enterprise's piece of mind. For more information visit www.wave.com. Juggler Logo fills the screen
Then you have a link on the website explaining the product in english and links to the products through Samsung and Dell at the very minimum.
Better than a damn electric race car anyday. Best money this company would ever have spent.