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Yes i'm almost 100% sure they used that same excuse for not including WAMU prior to 2017, on more than one occasion, that i actually saw.
Were WAMU figures ever included in any annual report since that initial Statement in 2009???
If they haven't i believe the reason is quite obvious!
Am i wrong here???....reference post 518718 by Justice.
The FDIC on the 18/02/2009 provided a statement of assets and liabilities in liquidation. The total assets listed at inception was $298.79B while the assets acquired by JPM was $258.58B, a difference of ~$40.21B, referred to as "Asset-Related Equity Adjustments (Note 8)".
Making up this $40.21B is a Net Assets/(Deficit) At Inception valued at $26.4B and Claims At Inception which sum up to be ~$13.78B. These items are identified in the first line of Note 8 in the same document.
Quote: "Note 8. Non Cash Adjustments: Unrecorded Assets and Claims determined to have existed as of the institutions failure are deemed Discovered Assets and liabilities, respectively, and are recorded as non cash equity adjustments.
Above a clear distinction is made between the $26.4B Discovered Asset and the $13.78B Liability. That $26.4B is an Unrecorded Asset that was IMO, PURPOSELY NOT RECORDED, to ensure that the FDIC's statement showed a negative balance when in actuality there is a surplus.
Is it pure coincidence that this $26.4B falls neatly into the range of WAMU's last 10Q estimated valuation of $25B-$27B for it's Available for sale securities???
Questions re posts 519292 and 518706......
1) What happened to those Available for sale securities valued at $25B-$27B that were mainly comprised of MBS's ($18B-$20B) and Investment grade securities???
How do you account for the FDIC regarding the $26.4B Net Asset/(Deficit) at inception as an UNRECORDED ASSET???
From FDIC's Inception Balance Sheet...........
Note 8. Non Cash Adjustments: Unrecorded ASSETS and Claims determined to have existed as of the institutions failure are deemed discovered ASSETS and LIABILITIES respectively.
Why respond??? I own WMIH and you don't! I also enjoy pointing out the rubbish posted by others eg...............
Noticed you haven't addressed my other post re FDIC excess assets....very telling!
Wasted enough time with your bs theory...do carry on.
The "dumping" and lawsuit arguments aren't working....try again!
Why repeat yourself also??? Your dumping argument is specious at best since no other HF's are. Seems research on what "dumping a stock" actually means is required.
Again...i repeat, let's ignore the 60M+ shares each will receive upon closure of the merger since it deflates ""our"" silly argument.
Seen too much of these attempts to "poison the well" in too many other stocks once news is imminent, it's actually rather amusing really...LOL
Seems you have some special insight into two of the largest HF's WMIH strategy.....of course you don't!!! Watch carefully....as you put it, Two dumped, while 30X+ added...got it yet??? Let's also just ignore the 60M+ shares they will both receive as soon as the merger closes. By the time they report again, they'll be back to owning more shares than most HF here. It's obvious that you know very little about these wolves!
Using the officially reported figures and the other FACTS laid out below, it seems that the FDIC holds almost twice as many ASSETS as it does LIABILITIES.
Relying on your extensive WAMU expertise, do you still actually hold the view that Equity will receive nothing substantial from this Bankruptcy/Receivership???
1) As of June 30, 2008 (3 mths before seizure) WAMU held between $25B-$27B (depending on amortization of the asset) in Available for sale securities (Afss)....FACT
2) Of that figure $18B-$20B were MBS's....FACT
3) WMB did not securitize loans into MBS's....FACT
4) MBS's securitized by an SPE are protected from seizure by bankruptcy creditors and Receiverships (FDIC)....FACT
5) The FDIC's Inception Balance Sheet (IBS) for WMB listed $26.4B in Unrecorded Assets....FACT
6) The IBS denotes Asset - Related Equity Adjustments (Note 8) as Unrecorded Assets + Claims ($26.4B + $13.8B = $40.2B)....FACT
7) Note 8. Non Cash Adjustments: Unrecorded ASSETS and Claims determined to have existed as of the institutions failure are deemed discovered ASSETS and LIABILITIES respectively....FACT!!!!!!!
Two holders dumped both of whom btw are set to receive tens of millions of additional shares from the Series B conversion and dividends. The shares sold were those that they received for investing in prefs and gave them a cost basis of <$0.10-$0.50. They made at least a 300-400% profit on those shares and can buy back in if they choose at any time. Two holders "dumping" while everyone else is adding...do the math. Your premise is nonsensical.
That's obvious since the POR stated ALL ASSETS AND INTER-COMPANY CLAIMS of WMI and WMIIC go to the LT while only the EQUITY INTERESTS of WMMRC and WMMIC go to WMIH.
Intercompany Claim.... A Claim by a Debtor against another Debtor or a Claim by an Affiliate of the Debtors against a Debtor.
IMHO it would serve us better if we decide to post about our Markers that we focus on WAMU's Available for sale securities (Afss).
I say this because it provides a factual and documented account of investments that WAMU owned up to June 30, 2008. When this is coupled with the unrecorded assets noted in the FDIC's inception balance sheet, this would warrant some optimism.
Post #518718 by Justice, IMO, lays out the case that the FDIC is using creative accounting to "conceal" estate assets from Equity.
If one third the effort, used to promote nonsensical $Billion payments from GS, Bofa etc or the now irrelevant "DC dual tracking", was put into useful DD we would be much better informed.
So what? Either way you still pay and there's no guarantee the pps you are issued shares at will hold it's value.
I don't envision anyone who's given the choice of payment in CASH or SHARES of WMIH to accept SHARES.
Give me all cash and then I WILL make the decision on what to invest in, WMIH or otherwise.
Also these Court Registry accounts that keeps being mentioned,..do they actually exist, where are they accounted for and who controls them???
Is this another one of our board misconceptions that's being propagated or are they actually there???
Let's just say the S4V becomes a reality, will the WMILT be the negotiator of the sale of assets to WMIH, and if not them whom??? If it actually is the WMILT, how do you explain this from the LT Agreement about what assets must be converted to...ie CASH?
1. What is the WMI Liquidating Trust?
WMI Liquidating Trust (the “Liquidating Trust”) serves as a mechanism for liquidating, converting to cash and distributing the Liquidating Trust Assets ( as further described in these FAQs) to the holders of beneficial interests in the Liquidating Trust (the “Liquidating Trust Beneficiaries”)
I don't think anyone's actually upset, it's just a crappy option if it actually happens.
When the merger occurs with no S4V event what then for that theory???
Based on the LT's stated mandate in the LT Agreement, there can be no shares for value transaction. Liquidate....Convert to CASH....Distribute!!!
1. What is the WMI Liquidating Trust?
WMI Liquidating Trust (the “Liquidating Trust”) serves as a mechanism for liquidating, converting to cash and distributing the Liquidating Trust Assets ( as further described in these FAQs) to the holders of beneficial interests in the Liquidating Trust (the “Liquidating Trust Beneficiaries”).
Yes you are correct.....assets + profits. I'm still drunk from last night...............my bad.
Yes they definitely did. Of the 75% that Prefs are entitled to receive the TPS will receive 52.6% of that amount.
WAMU's $24B+ investment portfolio yielded a $4.4B profit in the 6 months leading up to June 30, 2008. If it is sold, the price paid definitely won't be $24B or anything close to that.
My "speculation circuit" fried from an almost 10 yr overload. Sticking to provable theories from now on!
In that we have little or no say but we are partnered with AAOC, who actually own the largest share of Prefs and probably commons also. I don't see them giving up on any legacy cash that easily.
I just go where the facts take me....good or bad!!!
Pg 50 of June 30, 2008 10Q....
"Available-for-Sale Securities
The Company holds available-for-sale securities primarily for interest rate risk management and liquidity enhancement purposes. Accordingly, the portfolio is comprised primarily of highly-rated debt securities. The following table presents the amortized cost, unrealized gains, unrealized losses and fair value of available-for-sale securities as of the dates indicated. At June 30, 2008 and December 31, 2007 there were no securities classified as held to maturity."
They are not held primarily for sale to third parties
Of that $24B+ in Available for sale securities, $18B+ were MBS's whose returns i suspect were pledged to WMI.
If WAMU held more Participating Interests in MBS's these would have to be recorded in it's filings.
This is because there were no bankruptcy issues pre September 2008, so those assets would have to be accounted for.
I have not seen any additional revenue streams in filings that would indicate WAMU held additional mortgage interests.
You are correct IMO since the bankruptcy filing of $32B - $8B could not include any Safe Harbor assets as those would be bankruptcy remote and thus not reportable in that process.
I will start by saying WAMU was NOT is as much financial trouble as was made out in the media. Sub Prime Mortgages were a part of the problem but the accelerant was Derivatives. WM had less than minimal exposure to these toxic products as evidenced in their filings.
That said, it shows they were not in a position where they were compelled to liquidate performing assets. This is validated by the minimal reduction in AFSS from December, 2007 to June, 2008. That investment aspect of their business remained relatively stable.
To your questions, my current expectations remain the same for the time being. This is due to the lack of credible information available for me to change my view. We do not know what happened to these assets and which WAMU entity owned them prior to the seizure.
I am relatively confident that the $18B+ in MBS's that made up the AFSS were not part of the $1.9B sale. These MBS's would have been securitized by remote SPE's like WMAAC or WMMSC, NOT WMB. Once WMB originated the loans and "transferred" them to those SPE's, that qualified as a "True Sale".
When those loans were securitized into MBS's (pre 2008), the then law recognized asset transfers to qualified entities, SPE's, as sales. Once this "sale" occurred those assets would be protected by Safe Harbor. This is why IMO the FDIC could not seize these assets for sale to JPM or for liquidation to pay it's Receivership claims.
See pg 51 of the June, 2008 10Q, the figures quoted are already the Fair Value of these assets at that time. There was very little depreciation because the bulk of the AFSS was MBS's and of that the vast majority were rated AAA. Here is the breakdown.....
FV- Fair Value / BV- Book Value / PV- Par Value
Available for sale securities- Total MBS: $18.241B (all FV/BV)
AAA: $17.49B (BV as % of PV = 95%) loss in value = $920.53M
AA: $416M (BV as % of PV = 56%) loss in value = $326.86M
A: $108M (BV as % of PV = 41%) loss in value = $155.4M
BBB: $84M (BV as % of PV = 32%) loss in value = $178.5M
Below Investment Grade: $143M (BV as % of PV = 18%) loss in value = $651.4M
The total unrealized loss on the MBS portion of the AFSS was ~$2.23B (12.23%), once the assets were NOT sold.
Question...........
With the recent statements made by NSM management (Jay Bray?) concerning a possible hike in interest rates and how it would positively affect the profitability of their operations.
Could the FDIC also use this pending hike as an opportunity to liquidate WMB assets it "may" be holding to receive a greater return for those assets???
I will reserve any excitement when i see definitive proof that these assets were withheld from JPM and the FDIC.
If we could determine what these assets were and which entities held them that would be helpful.
What is hopeful is that as of December, 2007 to June, 2008 those AFSS assets decreased by less than $1B.
This IMO shows WAMU management were optimistic and did not seek to liquidate assets to raise fast cash.
The June, 2008 10Q shows, they actually sold $5B+ and added $6B+ in AFSS, the portfolio of which generated ~$1.6B in revenue for that 6 month period.
Not 100% sure but the bulk of WAMU's retained assets would be comprised of "Available For Sale Securities" (AFSS).
Agreed!!! WAMU IMO couldn't have liquidated $24B+ in MBS assets in the less than 3 months before WMB was seized,...not under those market conditions leading up to the crash.
In addition the FDIC, according to the P&AA, were entitled to withhold assets from sale which it deemed to be "essential to the Receiver".
Still not sure how this will play out re our Markers but at least we have WMIH!
Any asset that was directly owned by WMB or pledged to it could have been seized and sold to JPM. Whether that actually happened this way has different interpretations here.
SH assets are different in that it sets out a specific way assets originated by WMb can be immune to seizure by the FDIC. Once that process is followed the asset is protected by SH rules.
IMO, virtually all MBS's securitized by WMAAC and WMMSC etc and transferred to Trusts are protected. Whether SH is moot depends on if those SPE's and/or WMI/WMIIC retained interests in those MBS's.
Based on my initial post re Available for Sale Securities, it is clear WAMU retained securitized products which they could liquidate if required, and as of June, 2008 these accounted for ~$24.4B worth.
If they did, that property was NOT among the assets sold to JPM, nor could the FDIC seize same to pay claims against the Receivership. Our problem is we don't have access to all the information.
Download pdf in link below for explanation of FDIC Safe Harbor provisions. (pgs 3-7).
Safe Harbor
Actually no, any assets/interests that belonged to WMI could not be legally seized or sold by the FDIC. Those assets, IF there, will have to be returned to the LT to be liquidated and distributed to those who released.
Regarding Safe Harbor, again no, if assets were owned directly by WMB they could not qualify for that protection. Safe Harbor has specific requirements to qualify for protection involving ""sales/transfers"" of assets to SPE's and then again to Trusts.
No WMB owned MBS assets could or would qualify for SH. What is required is information on whether WMI or WMIIC held interests in any assets that qualified for SH protection. This is the info that we require, not useless daily postings of historical events that are already publicly known.
The figures below are taken from WAMU's last 10Q covering the 6 months up to June, 2008. They show the investment activities (income and expenditure) for that period, a mere 3 months before the September seizure of WMB.
Could the Safe Harbor assets that we believe (hope) exist have been accounted for in the "Available For Sale Securities" statements??? In the breakdown of the accounting of these AFSS's the largest investment component of it was MBS's ($18.241B) and Investment Securities ($6.134B).
Of note, the MBS's that comprised the AFSS, 95.9% were rated AAA, 2.28% AA, 1.0% A and 0.46% BBB investment grades, while only $143M worth was Below Investment Grade. These figures were as of June 30, 2008, the last filing by WAMU before seizure.
Who held/owned these assets and/or interests prior to the seizure and were they all sold to JPM or protected by FDIC Safe Harbor???
Available-for-sale securities, total amortized cost of $24,375B
Cash Flows from Investing Activities
Purchases of available-for-sale securities ($5,694B)
Proceeds from sales of available-for-sale securities
$6,822B
Principal payments and maturities on available-for-sale securities
$1,566B
Net cash provided by investing activities
$4,418B
What was not factored in was the $2.75B loan, the revenue from NSM's $500B+ in mortgages and the ??$590M from KKR??. This will all become assets owned by WMIH upon the merger.
The increase in the OS to 1.1B shares will also positively affect the stock's trading volume due to increased share liquidity and eventually IMO the pps.
I responded to jerry stating what i hope will happen and intended to do, not advise anyone about what to do. I asked whether bob was dictating to others what to do, not state that he did it. Do you even know what these symbols (???) even mean? Before posting BS try reading and understanding first!
Are you attempting to dictate to shareholders what their trading strategy should be??? Anyone with even the most basic market experience should know that a MB is the LAST place one should seek reliable investment advice. Whether that be a long or short term strategy or what to invest in. TBH, what someone does with their own shares is actually nobody's business but the holder.
Sarcasm!!!...obviously not detected.
I'm not sure why Long and Short Term Strategy trading seems so novel. Apparently i'm now a MB plant with some nefarious motive. This just keeps getting better every day...LOL.
Nice conspiracy theory...very intelligent.