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All you just posted is a bunch of unsupported "what if if if" fluff that makes little sense and is irrelevant to what I posted. The FED is selling Billions in assets monthly and as ti's article so are non banks such as KKR for a combined total of Trillions in assets being offered. Yet we are expected to believe WMIH will issue millions of shares to purchase any former WMI CASH producing beneficial interests that totals a fraction of these other assets on the market. Recently uou made the claim that WMIH did not intend to make any further acquisitions but rather would purchase assets, so I find your claim to be laughable, at best.
This does not support the S4V theory but rather discredits it since the market is now oversaturated with relatively cheap financial assets being offered for sale.
It is not out of the realm of reality that WMIH could leverage funds in order to purchase a chunk of these assets without involving the issuance of hundred of millions of shares.
I heard the BOS will be compensating us Billions in Scotch, Bag pipes Haggis and mini Kilts.
It's not necessary or sensible for me to prove your theories are wrong...it is your job to prove your own theories with evidence linking JA and your Part(BS) to any coming actions. This you have clearly not done, the reason being it's irrelevant and nonsensical.
Quote: "Blah, Blah Blah!"
This is literally what I see when I read your posts. A perfect representation!
It does not apply except in your erroneous theory and unsupported narrative. You are the one claiming JA and Part(bs) means something but expects me to disprove it when you haven't actually proved anything yourself. Just stating JA and Part(bs) in every post means nothing and proves nothing.
I don't know where you got the notion that anyone stated that WMI shareholders were also shareholders of WMB. The only ""shareholder"" of WMB was WMI, since they held 100% of the shares/equity of WMB. Based on a recent post by mordacai is seems that even though the WMI bankruptcy estate abandoned WMB's stock it DID NOT abandon it's interests in WMB property which would revert back to the Debtors, ie which is now the WMILT.
I suggest you read mordacai's post since it is an actual example of DD pertaining to us being compensated, unlike most of your posts which are clearly not.
The perfect example of conflation and misunderstanding of issues....ie your posts.
This article is significant to the merged WMIH IMO, where KKR may use WMIH as a financial vehicle for acquiring/offering these products in addition to the distressed loans being sold off by the FED. We're talking about Trillions in combined assets in the market, not Billions.
The equity interests in WMIIC seem to be worthless since the POR stipulates that ALL assets of WMIIC were contributed to the LT on the ED.
The same applies to WMMRC since we know for a fact that the vast majority of WMMRC's run-off proceeds, ie ASSETS, were contributed to the LT leaving just the shell of the company.
Quote: "and,subject to the abandonment of the equity interests of WMB, WMB."
IMO that refers specifically to the NOLS WMIH received as per POR 7.
Pleasant morning sir. Have a blessed day!!!
Yes, as the sole "Successor in Interest" of WMI/WMIIC, the LT would be the beneficiary of any assets that would be returned to the Debtors estate.
CBA09 posted this late last year and it seems to apply to this issue perfectly.
Quote: ""2) WMI abandoned it's stock as worthless on record with the Estate. The Estate in turn diverted all future benefits back to WMI. A clever astute move by WMI."
Thanks for posting the info and bringing it to the board's attention!
Will be paying more attention to WMIH's trading patterns post merger but agreed, their status as a 5%+ owner will prove to be an obstacle. Thanks
This is the relevant part of the msg I received last month. Did not want to post it because of the accusations and lunacy that's exhibited by some here daily.
Quote: "AND Fortress wanting to know about their ability to sell WMIH shares post merger)."
I don't believe it was meant as a dire warning but rather an issue I should be aware of.
On the subject of the merger, have you read/heard of Fortress making inquiries about their ability to ""treat"" with the WMIH stock they are set to receive once the merger occurs? I was imo reliably informed that they have indeed made such inquiries and their actions should be monitored,... whether they act on them is another story.
Looking at Code 554, it bears a some similarity to the wording in the WMI Abandonment Motion below for WMB stock, where WMI asserts it has not relinquished it'screditor rights with respect to WMB and the FDIC-R/C.
Quote: "provided, however, that such abandonment shall not constitute a withdrawal or release of any claims asserted by WMI as a creditor of WMB against the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation(the “FDIC”), in its capacity as receiver for WMB or in its corporate capacity, on account of WMI’s status as a creditor, and does not constitute a withdrawal or release of any rights under the Second Amended and Restated Settlement Agreement, dated as of February 7, 2011, among WMI, FDIC and the other signatories thereto (as amended, the “Global Settlement Agreement”)".
Who knows???
This bankruptcy code actually seems to have great relevance to our case because it references the abandonment of assets by the bankruptcy estate.
If correct it demonstrates how the Debtors (WMI and WMIIC) interests in assets were "shielded" from the bankruptcy estate and how the Debtors title to those assets/interests were secured.
This fits nicely with what several of us here believe about what the WMILT manages, in relation to the Debtors interests in Safe Harbor assets held by WMB and/or it's SPE subsidiaries.
I remembered this post by CBA09 which was in response to questions I posed. See post# 498722 on 12/05/17. mordacai's post seems to verify and legitimize CBA09's comment about the abandonment of assets.
Quote from CBA09 post: "2) WMI abandoned it's stock as worthless on record with the Estate. The Estate in turn diverted all future benefits back to WMI. A clever astute move by WMI
Quote: "Abandonment under Code § 554 removes property from the bankruptcy estate and returns the property to the debtor as though no bankruptcy occurred."
Quote from mordacai post: "The only determination made by the trustee and the court in the § 554 abandonment process is that the property is (1) burdensome to the estate, or (2) of inconsequential value. In making this determination, the trustee is guided by the best interests of the estate, not necessarily the interests of the debtor and creditors.
Comparing the percentage of the company owned to the value of the overall company.
Right now WMIH'a only tangible asset is the $600M cash so since those who released owns 100% of the shares, we fully own that asset.
Post merger, NSM's $18B in assets will become WMIH property but our ownership % will drop to 18%, therefore we will own 18% of the total value of the merged company...........
18% X ($18B + $0.6B) = $3B+
After the merger even though our ownership stake in WMIH is reduced from 100%--18%, the value of that reduced stake increases from $600M--$3B+ due to WMIH owning much more assets.
I've been asking the same question almost a year now with no success. For all the research one claims to do and being that knowledgeable it should be an easy task to answer these questions. The reason is obvious IMO, one does not or cannot refute what is being posted.
From reading that article, which is quite interesting IMO, it seems to confirm what many of us here believe.
What is being said is that abandonment removes property from the control of the estate, but NOT the Debtor.
By doing this the Debtors property would be protected from Creditors of the Estate and also relieve the estate of that burden(litigation???) and once resolved that property could be returned to the Debtor.
I can see a clear link to our case, "IF" this rule applies to us, where WMI/WMIIC's (Debtors) interest in WMB assets are removed from the control of the bankruptcy estate.
This also confirms that the property remains that of the Debtor which in our case is now represented by the WMILT, as it's "Successor In Interest" and NOT WMIH.
A few important quotes....thanks to mordacai for posting (note that I am not stating this rule applies to our case)
Quote: "Abandonment under Code § 554 removes property from the bankruptcy estate and returns the property to the debtor as though no bankruptcy occurred."
Quote: "an order of abandonment acts only as an abandonment of the estate's interest in the property and not as an abandonment of the debtor's interest,"
Quote: "Although the legislative history indicates that property of the estate may be abandoned to any party with a possessory interest in the property, as well as to the debtor, such abandonment of the estate's interest to a specific non-debtor entity(<---WMIH???) is inconsistent with the concept of abandonment under the Code."
Exactly!...As it is WMIH has no assets other than the NOLS and $600M in cash. When the merger occurs the company gains billions in NSM assets.
Pre merger: 100% of $600M = $600M in value for those who released
Post merger: 18% of $18B+ = $3B+ in value for those who released
Why am I not surprised! It's a technique in writing called "paraphrasing", look it up. Enjoy..............
QUOTE: "The only source of common stock available for any such a distribution would be from the 1.5 million of shares remaining on deposit in the Disputed Equity Escrow.
WMILT Statement on Escrow Cusips
This was covered months ago. The NOLS are no longer in danger of being lost because the "3 year test period" has elapsed already, if I remember correctly.
This is why IMO KKR etc waited this long to effect a merger. Our ownership of 51% of WMIH is no longer required to protect the NOLS and is why KKR and Fortress can now own more of WMIH that we do and the NOLS will still be there.
All retail and Hedgies who own <5% of WMIH are aggregated together to form one 5% holder. If I'm correct, once our aggregate holdings doesn't fall below 5%, an ownership change will not be considered to have occurred.
The Hedgies who are 5% holders must also maintain their 5% holding unless their reduction to <5% is sanctioned by the bankruptcy court.
After the merger our ownership % will fall from 100%, to ~18% ownership of WMIH. I believe Justice and mordacai are more familiar with this issue.
Well it seems you were unaware that WMIHC has contributed over $130M from WMMRC's run-off proceeds to the WMILT for the payment of LTI's as stated in the POR. Basically they are informing all MB conspiracist's to not expect any further cash payments from WMIHC.
As for it meaning WMIHC will issue shares, maybe you should have read the whole PR. They stated exactly why we were issued Escrow Cusips and it was for distributing the 1.5M disputed shares ONLY. Facts matter!!!!
QUOTE: "As stated above, the Escrow CUSIPS were established solely to facilitate potential distributions, if any, of shares of WMIHC common stock. The only source of common stock available for any such a distribution would be from the 1.5 million of shares remaining on deposit in the Disputed Equity Escrow."
Might be to you but there are apparently many posters still unaware that Escrow Cusips are for share distributions ONLY and LTI's are for cash.
WMI LIQUIDATING TRUST ISSUES STATEMENT ON ESCROW CUSIPS
The Trust has received inquiries regarding the status of “Escrow CUSIPs” issued on the Effective Date in accordance with the Plan. As has been stated in the past, such Escrow CUSIPs were issued solely to facilitate potential future distributions, if any, to eligible former shareholders of WMI if Claims involving Disputed Equity Interests are disallowed.
As stated above, the Escrow CUSIPS were established solely to facilitate potential distributions, if any, of shares of WMIHC common stock. The only source of common stock available for any such a distribution would be from the 1.5 million of shares remaining on deposit in the Disputed Equity Escrow. Specifically, the Escrow CUSIPS do not, in and of themselves, represent an entitlement to any possible future cash distributions from the Trust, WMIHC or the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (either in its corporate capacity or as the receiver for Washington Mutual Bank), as the case may be.
In accordance with the Plan, the Trust will issue Liquidating Trust Interests to WMI’s former shareholders if, and only if, the Trust is able to monetize Liquidating Trust Assets in amounts sufficient to pay-in-full claims held by beneficiaries of the Trust who are senior to members of Classes 19 and 22, and then, only if a shareholder had satisfied timely all conditions applicable to receiving any such Liquidating Trust Interests.
Does anyone know for a FACT that some or all WAMU originated Trusts continued making principle and/or interest payments to investors as usual when WMB was seized and WMI filed for bankruptcy, or whether some or all of these Trusts suspended payments to investors in lieu of the outstanding issues being fully resolved???
I honestly don't know where you guys come up with these inane theories from. So prior to the POR Prefs had payment priority over Commons but after the POR Commons now have payment priority over Prefs??? All this even though Commons only survived because they agreed to the 75%/25% compromise.
AMAZING!!!!!
A valid document was posted which shows that the $33B in assets included the WMB stock interest. If you refuse to accept reality and instead choose fantasies, that's not my problem. A valid link proved my claim, where's yours??? Seems this case is affecting some more than others..........
Thanks for the info in this post and also the confirmatory link to the amendment of the WMI bankruptcy filing. Looking forward to some progress on at least the WMIH front. It's been way too long overdue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Classic 22"?....more like the Non-Existent or Imaginary Class 22.
Quote: "25.2 Cancellation of Common Equity Interests: Notwithstanding the provisions of Section 25.1 hereof, on the Effective Date, all Common Equity Interests shall be deemed extinguished and the certificates and all other documents representing such Equity Interests shall be deemed cancelled and of no force and effect".
From Justice's post........
QUOTE: "IMPORTANT: This amount includes the Company's common stock interest in Washington Mutual Bank, which is currently in receivership and the assets of which have reportedly been transferred to JPMorgan Chase and Co. or an affiliate."
Satisfied yet???
The docs for the FASB letter, the June 2008 WAMU 8K and the FDIC Inception Balance Sheet have been posted and discussed numerous times here. May I suggest you start reading posts from others instead of one flawed source.
I don't recall ever seeing you ask AZ or others to provide any supporting docs...why is that?
QUOTE: "How can you say that there was not enough assets when they filed around $33B in assets with in a legal document?
Yes I was aware but there was also a document that seemed to show that the bulk of the $33B in assets was from the abandonment of the WMB stock that generated the NOL benefit. Of this I am very skeptical but till shown otherwise, I can only rely on what that document stated and how it was interpreted.
QUOTE: -"Can you specify what is safe harbor assets?
-Prove any legal document that shows there is safe harbor assets filed by the debtors?"
-SH assets in 2008 were assets that were deemed to have been "sold" (transferred) from a bank or possible debtor to a bankruptcy remote entity (SPE). Thus if WMB or WMI "sold" any interests in assets that were pledged to 3rd party investors or in which they also retained an interest in to an SPE like WMAAC or WMMSC, those assets or interests were deemed to be protected from seizure by Safe Harbor.
-Safe Harbor assets can never be filed by the Debtor, once an asset is in the possession of the Debtor, it does not qualify for Safe Harbor protection and can thus be seized and sold to pay Creditors. SH assets are protected from the FDIC, Creditors and also the Debtor.
NOTE: There are several sources which seem to indicate that WAMU held Safe Harbor assets.
1) WAMU letter to the FASB. Here they stated that WAMU held Snr and Sub interests in MBS's. It was standard industry practice for companies to retain interests in the MBS's they sold to investors as a means of assuring them that their products were "safe" to invest in.
2) The June 30, 2008 WAMU 8K. Shows WAMU held $26B+ in Available For Sale Securities (AFSS). These were comprised of $18B-$19B in highly rated MBS's and ~$8B in investment grade securities. These were recorded <3 months before WMB was seized and were likely to be Safe Harbor assets that could not be sold to JPM. To date no further info has been available to confirm this.
3) The FDIC Inception Balance Sheet. Again it seems to demonstrate that the FDIC has retained $26.2B in WMB assets which were not sold or transferred to JPM. Due to the FDIC's mandate, these assets, if they exist, must be liquidated and distributed to eligible parties. Again the lack of info prevents this from being confirmed as 100% true.
QUOTE: "This PATHETIC conversation about escrows, money coming or not coming, millions v billions, LT, trusts, 75-25 WHO CARES!"
What groundbreaking info do you present regarding WMIH??? All I seem to notice is your constant complaining about everything. By all means, start the conversation about WMIH even though there's really nothing to discuss. Some of us have been set and waiting for years hence we find current WMIH news not very interesting. If something major breaks, great, we'll discuss it. The merger's a done deal!!!
The NOLS resulted from WMI abandoning ownership of it's 100% equity interest (Stock) in WMB, not WMI's Common shares, which were WAMUQ!!!
WMI Common and Preferred shares had, and now have absolutely nothing to do with WMIH or their NOLS at this point, they were all cancelled on March 19, 2012.
Good grief................
What were trying to show is that up to March 18, 2012 (day before the Effective Date of POR 7) old WMI stock existed under the original terms they were issued.
Preferred (Wampq, Reits + Wamkq) were owed $1000/sh and $25/sh + interest owed and once that was paid the remaining value of the WMI estate belonged solely to Commons (Wamuq) using the Absolute Priority Rule (APR).
The problem was that there was not enough assets within the bankruptcy estate to fully satisfy the Preferred debt since Safe Harbor assets could not be included in the bankruptcy estate.
The result being that Commons would have been permanently cancelled as in most bankruptcies, and the Preferred stocks would have received WMIH and any remnants of the WMI estate.
This did not occur since the EC represented Wampq, Wamkq and Wamuq, so the Reits were convinced to allow Commons to participate but with a major compromise and as such APR was consensually violated by all parties involved.
The compromise reached to allow Commons to be paid simultaneously with Preferred, was that they agreed to accept 25% of all returns to the estate, while the Preferred who were owed $7.5B + interest, would receive 75% of the estate value.
To enable this compromise to be valid, all old shares and their legal documents which specified the original rights of Commons and Preferred stock, had to be cancelled for this agreement to be ratified.
Once these actions were accepted and carried out on the Effective Date (March 19, 2012), NEW PREFERRED AND COMMON EQUITY INTERESTS were issued to all shareholders who signed the "Releases".
QUOTE: "So then who would own the assets?"
Those who released and received those new Preferred and Common Equity Interests. They now represent our modified interests in all that WMI formerly owned,...whether it's bankruptcy or Safe Harbor assets.
Whether you agree with my assessment or not, examine the facts concerning the Cancellation of the Old Stock and the Issuance of New Equity Interests. There is only one logical answer.
QUOTE: "Annex C - Item 1.01 Amendment of a Material Definitive Agreement.
Annex C to the Agreement was revised to clarify that holders of Preferred Equity Interests and Common Equity Interests will be issued Liquidating Trust Interests in Tranche 6 on account of those interests when Tranche 2 through Tranche 5 Liquidating Trust Interests have been satisfied in full, AND that the distribution to Tranche 6 will be shared 75% and 25% pro rata between claims on account of Preferred Equity Interests and Common Equity Interests, respectively.
Been asking the same question for a while also....
If SH assets are 100% bankruptcy remote, then why in every case where commons were cancelled they've never been compensated???.
The POR made it absolutely clear by stating that the stock and ALL ASSOCIATED DOCUMENTS were extinguished and of "no force or effect".
It was those very documents that outlined the legal status and ownership rights of all WMI stock.
Once the docs were cancelled all former rights were voided and replaced by the POR, irrespective of the bankruptcy and SH processes.
Was that a serious statement? Not sure what case you're referring to but that certainly was not the case with WMI. In fact it was the opposite, where the Preferred holders, mainly Reits had to agree, since Commons, Pq and Kq Prefs were all represented by the EC. They needed to agree to allow Commons to receive a distribution along with Preferred rather than after they were paid in full. That's why the 75%/25% compromise was agreed to.
Could someone please decipher this statement?....using documented evidence rather than MB fantasy preferably.
QUOTE: "Your Released Markers Are Class Specific"
Somehow I believe this belongs in the same pile with the "Embedded Derivative" foolishness.
It's very difficult to "see the light" when the idea being promoted is illogical.
I don't believe anyone denies that any WMI SH assets are separate from bankruptcy assets.
Those assets are the property of the WMI estate, whom are now represented by the WMILT, as it's Successor In Interest.
Whether these assets are distributed by the LT, FDIC or other entity, the 75%/25% split applies.
The former owners of thee WMI estate, ie Commons, were clearly voided therefore nullifying their former rights.
It is the POR, as of March 19, 2012 that determines how any legacy returns are dispensed to our Equity Interests.
Why would WMIH/NSM concentrate on former WMI SH assets that does not even belong to them when the FED has and is seeking to liquidate in the next few years over $1 Trillion in distressed assets it secured after the Financial Crisis. The S4V theory makes no sense IMO.