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The Q designations were the only shares available to receive benefits or be cancelled.
WMI was reorganized into WMIH, a new and totally different entity. The ASSETLESS WMIIC shell was dissolved as stated by WMIH. Both have ZERO to do with WMI/WMIIC, now WMILT legacy assets, IF ANY.
Our Tracking Markers is what gives us the right to receive any future distributions from the estate, whether bankruptcy assets or Safe Harbor.
There's no hidden former equity that exists which supports your theory, they do not exist...Deal with it!!!
You're starting to confuse your own self now.
This is how I believe it works.....
-WMB originated loans and transferred (""sold"") those loans to SPE's like WMAAC and WMMSC.
-The SPE's securitized the loans and placed them into independent Trusts
-The Trusts sold Participating/Beneficial Interests in those assets to investors and returned cash generated to WMB. The SPE's also retained some PI/BI as an investment and also to improve the Credit Rating of the assets.
-WMI as parent of WMb/SPE's was entitled to ALL or part of those proceeds from the retained interests held by the SPE's.
Does the LT - if there is a BI in "some such trust" have any BI in the payments made to owners (they being one such owner unless their BI is only in some residual value) since the bankruptcy?
The LT as successor in interest to WMI has the same rights as WMI did, ie is entitled to ALL or part of the proceeds WMI may have earned from those PI/BI's.
Would some trustee be holding our share for us?
Would the FDIC be getting our share to hold?
It's possible the Trust is holding these payments or they are being deposited in a court approved bank account while the FDIC may hold WMB retained assets, not generated cash imo. The bankruptcy process does not strip ownership of property from the holder unless Creditors are owed, this is not the case with WMI. Safe Harbor is specific when it comes to being bankruptcy remote, it is NOT exempt from the entire bankruptcy process. See WAMU's 2005 letter to the FASB for context.
Is all that income - which is much of the original value - lost to us?
Why??? WMI's was not stripped of ownership of it's rightful property. Once the BK and/or Receivership are closed we should get a clearer picture.
Is the Bankruptcy and Receivership processes still open or closed??? It was the Bankruptcy/Receivership processes that halted payments to WAMU from those interests. I believe these issues must be resolved before any such assets are returned. These assets, if any, were ""bankruptcy remote"", but still owned by WMI, and now the WMILT on our behalf.
If you received shares of WMIH in 2012 you either did sign the Release or were a pre-seizure holder of WAMU. If you did not Release then it is very unlikely that you will receive any distributions from the WMILT. If you did then you're okay.
Quote: "In accordance with the Plan, the Trust will issue Liquidating Trust Interests to WMI’s former shareholders if, and only if, the Trust is able to monetize Liquidating Trust Assets in amounts sufficient to pay-in-full claims held by beneficiaries of the Trust who are senior to members of Classes 19 and 22, and then, only if a shareholder had satisfied timely all conditions applicable to receiving any such Liquidating Trust Interests. There can be no assurances that the Trust will be able to monetize assets in a manner sufficient to give effect to the foregoing."
The highlighted portion means signing the Releases.
That is correct, WMI reserved it's rights as a Creditor of WMB in spite of the releases granted in the GSA, they stated this in the WMB Stock Abandonment Motion.
Matchoo is claiming that the LT Assets are meant to pay WMB Creditors also.
The LT paid the Snr Notes $335M as their share of certain assets but this was really to assist in funding their litigation activities against the FDIC and possibly others.
They were paid off to not stir up trouble and delay the POR. WMB Creditors are not an LT issue.
So WMI owns the Beneficial Interest, of WMB loans I suppose. So questions:
Again, Loans owned by WMB were sold to JPM in 2008, those ""sold"" (true sale) to SPE's and then placed into Trusts as MBS's are the loans WMI could have Beneficial Interests in.
Does it cease to collect interest in 2008 or 2012 or until the loan is paid off?
In most cases the Trust Assets continue to perform as per normal even through bankruptcy until all loans are repaid or the Trustee decides to close the Trust. DB was different since there were repurchase obligations for non-performing loans. These loans could not be replaced once the bankruptcy was filed in 2008 or compensated for until the FDIC settled with DB in 2017.
you said that this interest money is not in the trust possession yet and so is it held by JPM now? Does JPM has to pay or everything will have to come from the 40B assets that FDIC has retained?
If there is cash from BI's they will be held in court sanctioned accounts, possibly with JPM or another bank. JPM does not own or control these funds. The $40B possibly retained by the FDIC has nothing to do with JPM. WAMU had $299B in assets, JPM received $258B so the FDIC may have kept $40B for their own use. Unless JPM chooses to purchase these assets, they owe the FDIC nothing.
As mortgages are paid off, do you think that the longer the trust hang onto those beneficial interest or DST or whatever you call, they will decrease in value? If so then why didn't the trust sells it sooner?
This was addressed yesterday. As payments are made to BI holders the total they are owed will obviously decrease, that cannot be helped. What affects the value of an asset is it's current worth and market conditions ie 2008 compared to 2018. If at the start the BI's were worth $2B Total, to be paid over 5 years, after 2 years of receiving payments it would not still be worth $2B since $800M would have been already paid to the holder. If the holder then decides to sell the remaining 3 yrs of interests now worth "$4.2B", they may have to sell it for $4B or less since the new investor needs to generate a profit. Selling it sooner could actually result in the original holder sacrificing profits since the asset would be discounted in order to cash in earlier.
These are all my opinions based on my interpretation of the facts I've read.
Quote: "The WMILT gets to distribute the "certain assets" given to them by WMI to pay the creditors of WMB and WMI!"
No further comment necessary. Continuously self discrediting. Please cease misleading the board. Thanks.
No....
Upon filing bankruptcy WMI/WMIIC would have ceased receiving payments for those interests, as per bankruptcy rules and/or SH rules.
The reason the LT does not report them is because they are not in their possession and as such, under Liquidation Basis of Accounting (LBA), they are not required to report such assets.
LBA only requires reporting of assets that are in, or about to be liquidated that were not recognized before, in aggregate, rather than individually.
See post 536335
Virtually everyone here understands what we meant except mattchoo. It's simple really, Old WMI stock was cancelled and we were issued new equity where we are all compensated together but at the 75%/25% ratio. He can't disprove it so resorts to making up claims nobody ever made.
Prove that Old WMI Commons and Preferred were not CANCELLED in the POR 7 and we were issued New Preferred and Common Equity Interests under a 75%/25% ratio....you can't?...how sad!!!
I hope that one day you could write a post that actually contains something resembling truth that's backed by even minimum facts that are accurately interpreted. I will not be holding my breath.
First read post 518718 by Justice, paying close attention to the following info presented in the documents...
1) Total WMB assets - $299B
2) Assets acquired by JPM - $258B
3) Asset-Related Equity Adjustments (NOTE 8) - $40.2B
4) Net Assets / (Deficit) At Inception - $26.4B
5) Total Liabilities - $13.8B
Some of us believe that the $40.2B A-REA (3) are retained assets by the FDIC.
In NOTE 8 it is labelled as Non-Cash Adjustments which are Unrecorded Assets or Claims. These are deemed to be Discovered Assets or Liabilities.
IMO this clearly means the $26.4B Unrecorded Asset are Discovered Assets and the $13.8B Claim are Liabilities.
NOTE: The Net Assets / (Deficit) At Inception is clearly a positive (+ve) figure since it is not enclosed in brackets, as per normal reporting in financial documents.
This is a perfect example of how solid, fact based DD, as presented in your post, is constantly ignored in favor of unsupported opinions.
Amazing!!!!!
I don't mean to say that JPM bought the trusts. But JPM bought WMB which WMI has claims on it. Does that mean that JPM has to pay for it?
If WMI's Creditor claims are still valid the FDIC is on the hook, not JPM or WMB. That's why the FDIC may have retained the $40.2B.....
Quote: "provided, however, that such abandonment shall not constitute a withdrawal or release of any claims asserted by WMI as a creditor of WMB against the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (the “FDIC”), in its capacity as receiver for WMB or in its corporate capacity, on account of WMI’s status as a creditor"
Again, nothing to do with JPM or it's WMB assets.
That is my question. It has been 10 years since the BK and a lot of mortgages have been paid off or refinanced. So where does the trust get the interest from? Also, did the trust cease to draw interest in 2008 or 2012 or until it is sold?
WAMU created 100's of Trusts, not one. They range from 5, 10 or 20+ years so those that expired are closed, those with long term loans are still collecting payments on those loans or assets. The Trusts continue functioning as per normal, only the cash distributions to WAMU ceased in 2008 when bankruptcy was filed, as per the law.
Since WMILT has to liquidate the trusts to get the money, the longer it waits, the less valuable are the trusts, right? Because more loans will be paid off.
The LT does not own the Trusts to liquidate them, they own Participating Interests (PI) or Beneficial Interests (BI) in the assets held by Independent Trusts. As with any loan, fixed payments are made monthly until the loan is paid off. Any Interests owned by the LT will have a set payment % over the life of the investment eg if $1B was held with an interest rate of 15% over 5 years, each month $1.15B / 60 would be paid to holders. The same amount of cash should be credited monthly once defaults and prepays are negligible. Yes, the longer the PI or BI is held, the less it's resale value would be since the total return decreases with each monthly payment received.
You're conflating separate/different terms, hence the confusion
What are Beneficial Interests
A beneficial interest is the right to receive benefits on assets held by another party. The beneficial interest is often related to matters concerning trust assets. For example, most beneficial interest arrangements are in the form of trust accounts, where an entity, the beneficiary, has a vested interest in the trust's assets. The beneficiary receives income from the trust's holdings but does not own the asset.
I posted about the Covered Bonds and how they were overcollateralized months ago, what are you talking about? (post 531033)
You are 100% WRONG about the FDIC's $40.2B Asset-related equity adjustment, that wasn't the subject.
In NOTE 8 the FDIC refers to it as a Discovered Asset and Liabilities respectively. The Asset being $26.4B and the Liability $13.8B. Facts don't lie! (post 518718)
Quote: "Yes...Eclipse is WMIIC"...LOL
JPM can't buy Trusts, they are independent entities...this has been well discussed here.
The Trust is formed, assets are placed into the Trusts and Interests are sold/retained, end of story.
No new assets are written and placed into a Trust, the existing assets pay returns until all loans are paid off...THE END!
As long as the Trust exists and WMI owns an interest, cash will be generated.
The LT may still have Creditor claims against the FDIC-C and FDIC WMB Receivership which it seems to have never released, even under the GSA. Those claims have nothing to do with JPM or the WMB assets they acquired. The FDIC-C/R must satisfy those claims by liquidating assets they may hold. The only action the FDIC has against JPM is the Libor rigging suit...totally unrelated.
"Eclipse is WMIIC"...that ron?
Please!...LOLOL.
I'll say it again....100% wrong!!!
Read the FDIC doc, Note 8 refers to the $40.2B A-rea as a Discovered Asset and Liabilities, ie $26.4B Discovered Asset and a $13.8B Liability (ie Claim).
Quote: "Yes...Eclipse is WMIIC".
That's just one example of a pattern.
I don't believe anyone can honestly read LG's post and not see the blatant similarities with our situation. This by no means confirms it, but it also does not mean it has zero merit. Taking all the other goings on, from the imminent closure of the BK, the evidence of assets at the FDIC and several other markers, is too difficult imo to simply ignore. This coming from someone who's always been very pessimistic about most claims made here.
Read what I said..."Liquidate and/or Distributeassets".
What does this have to do with JPM and WMB assets?...nothing. Why can't an interest in assets be sold? They are sold to investors so there is no reason a long term 3rd vested interest in cash returns can't be sold to an interested party.
If WMI has SH assets, being still under bankruptcy, the LT could not be entrusted with those assets yet, hence the formation of a separate body, headed by Kosturos to oversee them. Hopefully the closure of the bk will release these assets for Liquidation and/or Distribution. Nothing like an S4V, no shares are being traded for cash or assets...???
Based on other posts there seems to be some Trusts that run out to 2030-40, any interests in those would still be active.
The real money is made by the Servicing Bank or Company (eg NSM). A+M is merely ensuring the assets are accounted for, if that actually what they're doing.
Very interesting post LG....it all seems to correlate to former WMI assets/Beneficial Interests being secured in DST's using the 1031 process.
Wasn't WAMU 1031 dissolved and another 1031 company formed to replace it???
If this proves to be accurate, I wonder whom these DST's will rely on to liquidate and/or distribute legacy assets...the WMILT perhaps???
I totally forgot about Project Eclipse....wonder why not a peep since!
"Yes, Eclipse is WMIIC."
"Project Eclipse - Exhibit A - Equal Escrow ShareMarkers"
"Eclipse is not NSM!"
"Btw project ECLIPSE is the wmiliquidating trust."
"IMO WMIIC is Project Eclipse"
All proven to be complete nonsense after all.
You might want to reread my post, I never said WMIIC was dissolved in 2012. I stated the assets of WMIIC were all transferred to the LT in 2012.
Quote: "The worthless shell was dissolved by WMIH, the assets and inter-company claims of WMIIC were all transferred to the WMILT on March 19, 2012, the ED."
All ceased being distributed to WMI/WMIIC upon filing bankruptcy but are most likely being deposited into court sanctioned accounts or held by the Trustees and awaiting the closure of the bankruptcy cases.
The worthless shell was dissolved by WMIH, the assets and inter-company claims of WMIIC were all transferred to the WMILT on March 19, 2012, the ED.
Dm's DD is excellent IMO but we greatly differ on the cash returns. I do not believe we'll see anything in excess of $20B, but for now i'm sticking with my original $2B-$10B prediction.
After I posted it I checked the date of that motion's document, it was March 16, 2012.
IMO the following statement,..."as amended, the “Global Settlement Agreement”, means the final POR 7 document.
The POR, GSA and DS together make up the Confirmation Order. Correct
More like the LT has not received anything outside of WMI's bankruptcy assets since 2012.
Once they receive ANY assets, whether Cash or illiquid Mortgage Certs, they will only then be accounted for as a whole, rather than as they are received bit by bit.
This imo would apply where varying quantities of assets are being returned from multiple sources, rather than one main source, over a period of time.
Rather than constantly updating the filings, the assets are reported as one group of assets instead of as individual assets received.
Clearer???
If the LT receives SH assets they must report them in aggregate to Trust beneficiaries upon receipt of, or imminent liquidation of said assets.
If they are not in possession of those assets they are not obligated to report future receipt of assets, even if they are set to receive them at some known date.
The current QSR's/Filings are meaningless in this regard. See post 536335.
When and IF SH assets are received by the LT, they will be accounted for when their liquidation is imminent. (text in red)
Liquidation basis accounting is concerned with preparing the financial statements of a business in a different way if its liquidation is considered to be imminent. Imminent refers to one of the following two conditions:
Liquidation plan. A plan for liquidation has been approved, and is likely to be achieved.
Forced liquidation. A third party is forcing the business into liquidation, and is likely to achieve this goal.
The accounting under the liquidation basis of accounting differs in several respects from normal accrual basis accounting. The key differences are:
-Recognize any assets that had not previously been recognized, but which you expect to either sell in liquidation or use to pay off liabilities. This means it is possible to recognize internally generated intangible assets – which would not normally be the case. The main point is to only recognize items if they are actually worth something in liquidation.
-It is allowable to recognize in aggregate those assets that had not been previously recognized, rather than individually.
-Accrue for the expected disposal costs of assets that will be liquidated.
-Accrue for those income and expense items that will be earned or incurred through the end of the expected liquidation period. An example of such an income item is the expected profits from orders that have not yet been fulfilled. An example of such an expense item is wage and salary costs expected to be incurred.
Read up on Liquidation Basis of Accounting, which is what the WMILT uses. Only assets being or about to be liquidated are required to be reported. Unless the LT receives and liquidates SH assets, they will not show up in any QSR.
Does this part hold any significance re the document and the date??? The Seventh Amended document was actually passed.
Quote: "and does not constitute a withdrawal or release of any rights under the Second Amended and Restated Settlement Agreement, dated as of February 7, 2011, among WMI, FDIC and the other signatories thereto (as amended, the “Global Settlement Agreement”)."
Abandonment Motion
Was thinking the same thing but I could see how WMI would have specific rights with regard to the cash generated from those Certs. How that is adjudicated by the FDIC will be interesting.
Quote: "~ NO, NO I Will Never Be Issued An LTI ~"...LOL
Another perfect example of the usual and continuously posted bs here. Once the Employee Claims are denied, which they will, how exactly will the ~$50M be distributed since our Markers are for shares only, not cash. The LT clearly stated that any cash to be distributed will be done via the issuance of LTI's. When will the nonsense stop!!!
Enough with the redistribution "red herring" argument...they used the same term for shares.
Quote: "Upon resolution of those Claims, the related portion of the shares maintained in the Disputed Equity Escrow will be distributed to claimants holding the newly allowed claim or, if the claim is disallowed, the related portion of the shares will be redistributed to beneficiaries of the Trust in accordance with the distribution mechanics set forth in the Plan."
Yes, we WILL be issued LTI's for cash payments, starting with ~$50M, any claims otherwise are not based on facts.
Quote: "In accordance with the Plan, the Trust will issue Liquidating Trust Interests to WMI’s former shareholders if, and only if, the Trust is able to monetize Liquidating Trust Assets in amounts sufficient to pay-in-full claims held by beneficiaries of the Trust who are senior to members of Classes 19 and 22, and then, only if a shareholder had satisfied timely all conditions applicable to receiving any such Liquidating Trust Interests."
Were these Residual Certs held by WMB/WMBfsb directly or by their SPE subs???
For Safe Harbor protections to apply those assets could not be held by either bank as they would be susceptible to seizure.
WMI, as the parent would imo have a full or partial interest in the returns from these Certs.
Been trying to get an answer to this cancelled Commons question for a long time from the "APR Crew"....no luck so far.
I'm always amazed at the reference to "civility", that is until the snide comments and veiled insults are hurled at those with opposing views. It seems rather hypocritical imo.
LIQUIDATE,
CONVERT TO CASH,
AND DISTRIBUTE......END OF STORY!
If you don't get it yet, you never will.
Old WMI stock, ie Wampq, Wamkq, Wamuq and Reits were all Cancelled and replaced with those Markers. They do not represent our old shares and we only received Markers for what we owned. I owned only Preferred shares so I received 939ESC992 Markers. What part of the word "replaced" do you not understand??? Been saying this for over a year now in every post on this topic.
The questions of what Common stock will APR distributions be made to, and also when the bankruptcy is closed, what will then prevent bankruptcy remote SH assets from being distributed to our Markers as per the POR, are never addressed. Cancelled means Cancelled, no matter how it's spun!
And your "guru's", Commons own the WMI estate is also, if not moreso.