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Quote: "WMI Liquidating Trust, as successor in interest to Washington Mutual, Inc. and WMI Investment Corp., formerly debtors and debtors in possession"
Was looking at this statement yesterday trying to figure out if they were referring to WMI as the "Debtor" and WMIIC specifically as the "Debtor in Possession". If you look at the meaning of "Debtor in Possession" it has a meaningful bearing on the disposition of assets.
A debtor in possession in United States bankruptcy law is a person or corporation who has filed a bankruptcy petition, but remains in possession of property upon which a creditor has a lien or similar security interest. A corporation which continues to operate its business under Chapter 11 bankruptcy proceedings is a debtor in possession.
Could the highlighted above be referring to WMI (now the WMILT)???
As CBA09 confidently stated in post 504271...."only one end stop - Escrow Markers", ie our Equity Interests.
Here's some DD from someone who actually has some expertise and knows what he's talking about, instead of just pretending to like.....
Post# 504271 by CBA09......
Quote: "Since our Safe Harbor Assets are outside the bankruptcy estate, those captured within SPE/Trusts will follow each respective Pooling & Service Agreement (PSA) provisions. Generally, it's Parent that receives cash flows of residuals. Note, SPE# 1 create the SPE# 2 /Trusts, SPE 1 are many times direct subsidiaries of the Parent. And, SPE # 1's have a great deal of involvement in residual interest of SPE # 2 / Trusts.
In a solvent entity shareholders cannot force a distribution. A Corporation, thru it's board, has to declare a distribution of it's profit before shareholders are to receive any distribution in the form of dividends.
PSA are compelling and indivisible - only one end stop - Escrow Markers."
Everything to our Markers will be shared 75%/25%...EOS!
I'll lay it in the most basic terms so even you could understand...
Commons are lowest in priority so to enable them to receive a distribution along with the higher priority preferred APR had to be violated.
To accomplish this ALL the old stock and ALL the documents detailing their former rights had to be made null and void, which was done.
We all were reissued new Preferred and Common Equity Interests that now represent out interests in the former WMI estate at a ratio of 75%/25%.
This was the accommodation that had to be made to allow Commons to remain part of the process and share in the ownership of WMIH and legacy assets.
The other theory that you grasp onto has Zero Credibility and is not based in facts or reality, get over it already!!!
Didn't you get the memo?...Commons, even though they were cancelled and no longer exist as they were before, owns the legacy WMI estate!
P's are worth $1000 at FV, so $2000 is not much of a stretch when one looks at WAMU's last 10Q and other FDIC docs. Either way I said this figure was "more likely", not that we were guaranteed to receive this sum.
What evidence do you base your view that $100B+ will return to the estate??? There is more that indicates that it will be much less than that. A company that has retained interests worth $100's of billions does not sell half it's stake for $7.5B (TPG). It's called common sense!!!
$300B in assets and what about the $280B+ in liabilities??? You guys keep forgetting about that. You can't quote one and ignore the other.
For P's to receive $18000/sh that would mean $240B in cash would have to come back. THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN!!!!!! We are more likely to see anywhere from as little a $2B to a high of ~$20B or so. That would give P'a a max of $2000/sh and Commons $4.19/sh. Not these ridiculous figures being quoted.
Only JMW would know exactly why but IMO it was pretty clear that the assets he was referencing were not under the purview of the bankruptcy court. I don't believe the 75%/25% split was an issue at that time.
I agree that it would have been ideal if more info was available which confirmed the existence of SH assets.
We must remember though that JMW immediately "shut down" the EC's lawyer when he tried to reference those assets in her court.
At least it won't be much longer before we are finally appraised on what's actually there, if anything at all.
So that means KKR now owns $10's of Billions in WMI Trust interests/cash since the merger from their pitiful $600M investment???
I wonder who was the genius that negotiated that deal since many here will be pissed, or is it just more MB rubbish.
Seems to me it's the latter.
WMIH is not the "Successor" of WMI in terms of any interests in existing assets. They are the reorganized WMI,...a new and separate entity with different owners from the former parent company.
Quote: "WMI Liquidating Trust (“WMILT” or the “Trust”), as successor in interest to Washington Mutual, Inc. (“WMI”) and WMI Investment Corp. (“WMIIC”), formerly debtors and debtors in possession (collectively, the “Debtors”)2, files this motion (the “Motion”) for an order (a) granting WMILT’s Omnibus Objections, as defined below,"
Successor in Interest Law and Legal Definition. The term successor in interest means a successor to another's interest in property, especially a successor in ownership of a business that is carried on and controlled substantially as it was before the transfer.
Yes you are 100% correct since the LT is the sole representative of WMI and once the bankruptcy is closed could reclaim ANY and ALL WMI owned Safe Harbor assets.
The previous documents (contracts) that outlined the rights of Commons and Preferred are no longer valid, since they were rendered null and void by the Debtors.
The only valid document at present is the POR and as such only those provisions are legally enforceable. By this i'm referring to the 75%/25% division of remaining estate assets.
Assuming that you're correct, what documents would legally support Preferred's right to receive FV compensation?
I ask in this context since all of their foundational documents/contracts were cancelled and made null and void in 2012.
Think about it, if WMIH-Corp gets all WMIIC income we who released in 2012 went from owning 100% of those assets to now owning ~10-20% post merger for what...$600M??? KKR and a bunch of other non releasing Hedge Funds now own ~80%-90% of our property. Any assets held by WMIIC belonged solely to WMI which is now represented by the WMILT. This is the most idiotic theory yet.
Also see if you can get a coherent answer for this question...how would a QSR, which is a WMILT bankruptcy document, be used to record bankruptcy remote Safe Harbor assets?
Quote: "~2221 The Trust Generated Returns, Are Class Specific ~"
Commons, Wampq nor Wamkq were NEVER,..I repeat,..NEVER, directly backed by any Trusts or assets as is being claimed. Anyone who ever bothered to read a Prospectus would know this fact. As stated in the actual documents, their support relied on the performance of WAMU, the company. Just another example of misinformation being purported as facts. Pure hogwash!!!
Quote: "“WMI (now WMIH-Corp) Owns 100% Of The Equity Interest In WMIIC”
WMI is NOT now WMIH-Corp,...WMI is now the WMILT, it's sole "successor in interest" in terms of property rights. WMIH-Corp dissolved WMIIC, an asset less corp., in early 2018. They are due nothing from legacy assets. Good grief!
Note: Could someone explain why bankruptcy documents and issues are being used to explain why the WMILT cannot reclaim and distribute Safe Harbor assets??? Seems odd since Safe Harbor assets are supposed to be bankruptcy remote. Very strange indeed...LOL
This is another fallacy that's been peddled here for a long time but is actually inaccurate, as per Pq and Kq prospectus's.
Neither the Pq's nor the Kq's were ever directly backed by any Trusts or Trust assets,... only the TPS, now referred to as Reits were.
When the exchange event occurred in September, 2008, those assets immediately became WMB property and were subsequently acquired by JPM.
Dividends paid to Pq's and Kq's came from the profits generated by the whole company, WAMU, same as the dividends received by Commons.
These profits would have been partly generated from retained SH assets that we hope are still there and will be returned to our Markers.
Granted that our Safe Harbor claims are yet to be proven but there is some evidence of their existence from pre September, 2008 WAMU filings.
What WMIH received was all outlined in the POR and does not include any Safe Harbor assets.
JPM could not purchase SH assets as they are bankruptcy and receivership remote so again that claim is incorrect.
The WMILT is the sole successor of WMI, hence making the LT the only valid recipient of any property of the WMI estate.
The property rights of a company is not affected by filing bankruptcy unless Creditors are still owed...this is clearly not the case here.
My sole aim here is to provide an alternate view to the one that's constantly presented and which IMO is clearly incorrect. At this point, it's not an issue for me personally but if it ever becomes one I will take the necessary steps to alleviate same.
EDIT: The answer is simple...I can't sit back in good conscience and watch misinformation being portrayed as truth. That's motivation enough for me, irrespective of the present impasse of opinions! Also these posts are not generally for those who have a set viewpoint but rather those who are still openminded or genuinely unsure .
You then obviously understand why old WMI Commons and Preferred shares and ALL their respective documents had to be cancelled.
To legally allow Commons to receive a distribution before the higher priority Preferred were paid in full, all former shares and contract documents had to be voided.
See post# 504271 by CBA09......
Quote: "Since our Safe Harbor Assets are outside the bankruptcy estate, those captured within SPE/Trusts will follow each respective Pooling & Service Agreement (PSA) provisions. Generally, it's Parent that receives cash flows of residuals. Note, SPE# 1 create the SPE# 2 /Trusts, SPE 1 are many times direct subsidiaries of the Parent. And, SPE # 1's have a great deal of involvement in residual interest of SPE # 2 / Trusts.
In a solvent entity shareholders cannot force a distribution. A Corporation, thru it's board, has to declare a distribution of it's profit before shareholders are to receive any distribution in the form of dividends.
PSA are compelling and indivisible - only one end stop - Escrow Markers."
Indeed LG, I do know what I own and it surely isn't receiving just $1000 FV for my WAMPQ's granted that assets are available.
Some need to explain how Commons received a distribution even though Preferred's (Wampq, Wamkq + Reits) $7.5B debt was never paid in full.
""I'm here"" because i own WMIH stock, and Preferred Equity Interests in hopefully Billions in Safe Harbored assets of the legacy WMI estate. It's apparent you didn't comprehend my point in that post since your question is way off script. Is there anything else you wish to inquire about?
POR 7, since POR 6 obviously failed.
POR 6 passing would have resulted in AAOC owning WMIH and also any SH assets owned by WMI, aka K-MART.
We were set to be cancelled and receive nothing. The passage of POR 7 changed all that.
Now our Markers represent our ownership interests in the former WMI estate which is totally separate from WMIH.
In the absence of all the facts all one can do is utilize what verified information is available, if any, in a logical manner.
Former WMI Commons and Preferred, along with all their respective documentation were cancelled, that is an irrefutable fact!!!
Ask yourself by what mechanism could these shares be "rebooted" back into the current case to regain their former property rights.
Any honest person looking at this dispassionately could only come to one conclusion...they are gone and so are those former rights!
The decision to void ALL the documents was done for a specific purpose, ie to legalize the nullification of those contracted rights.
Meaning, Preferred (PQ's) are no longer entitled to $1000 FV + interest, and Commons no longer have claim on the remainder of the WMI estate.
Notice no one that promotes the "Commons theory" ever fully or sensibly explains how such a distribution could ever possibly work.
Instead all that's presented are vague opinions which very few, if anyone, can easily decipher.
I challenge anyone who believes that Commons are the rightful recipients of the lions share of Safe Harbored Trust cash to present evidence of such from any Trust Prospectus's or PSA that they have supposedly researched.
According to, IMO, the most credible poster on this board, CBA09, the Trust returns would be allocated to the entities named in the individual Trust's foundational documents/Pooling and Servicing Agreements.
That entity is clearly WMI, being the direct parent company of the originator (WMB) and depositor (WMAAC/WMMSC etc) of the loans that were pooled, securitized and ""sold"" into independent Trusts.
Since WMI has ceased to exist as an entity since March, 2012 these benefits then naturally transfer to it's SOLE "successor in interest", the WMILT, for the benefit of shareholders who released in 2012.
That being the case, there is no longer any old WMI equity with their documentation that exists to reap these rewards, but instead our NEW equity interests that will share any available cash 75%/25% as per the POR.
And??? I don't get your point.
That's why most sensible posters read everything, not just the ones that feed their own biases. Thanks for confirming what I already knew!
S4V theory??? I've always denied that this could happen, so that statement just proved to me you don't read anything,...what a joke. In the past the consensus among 99% of intellectuals was that the earth was flat, they were all wrong. Just like the view that commons still owns the WMI estate. Yet another irrelevant and inane point.
What's clear in the responses from the "other side" is that they always conveniently ignore the FACT that Commons were cancelled, along with all documents detailing their former rights.
That point is never addressed since it cannot be explained away with silly opinions that cannot stand up to even the most basic scrutiny.
Cut and pasted FACTS vs unsupported opinions. What a tough choice...LOL.
Soon reality will set in on those that post all this nonsense here.
Quote: "No One will be issued any additional Interests in the WMI-LT, referred to as LTI’s …"
So we should believe you instead of the WMILT??? WRONG!
From the WMILT.....
Quote: "In accordance with the Plan, the Trust will issue Liquidating Trust Interests to WMI’s former shareholders if, and only if, the Trust is able to monetize Liquidating Trust Assets in amounts sufficient to pay-in-full claims held by beneficiaries of the Trust who are senior to members of Classes 19 and 22, and then, only if a shareholder had satisfied timely all conditions applicable to receiving any such Liquidating Trust Interests."
You "call the game" when the clock hits 0:00, not with 5 mins left and a tied score.
In our case that means closure of the bankruptcy and/or the receivership processes.
We are fast approaching what I believe is the end of this arduous journey...GLTA!
Is this the reason why the LT's QSR's do not present any evidence of any Safe Harbor assets??? That was rhetorical......
Do you have even one shred of actual evidence that backs up that incredible claim???
I've been here since 2008 and have never seen any such document or asset appraisal.
Link???
Hey mattchew...ditto!!! After this is all over, drinks in Vegas, irrelevant how this ends. V V
Remember, WAMU's direct regulator, the OTS, did not deem the company to be a financial risk but they eventually ceded to the FDIC's demands.
The FDIC seized WMB because JPM wanted WMB and they call the shots. WAMU was a small fish in a pond full of "super predators".
Everyone who released in 2012 received "Escrow Cusips" for the purpose of receiving any shares in the disputed equity reserve. We also received a Preferred or Common Equity ownership Interest in any estate property that may return after the bankruptcy/receivership is resolved. Sometimes individuals attempt to give the impression of superior knowledge and/or intelligence but end up achieving the opposite. This is actually one of those cases, since it's a completely meaningless issue at this point.