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Many, if not all of the loans contributing to that $8B in interest were sold to JPM so they can't be included. That is a vast oversimplification of this case.
Goodness me...30K per PQ would net me well over of $US100M. LOL
You're missing the point...the issue is not how much will come back, if anything at all.
It's about events being portrayed as 100% proof that we will be paid.
Using the Underwriters case for example, the facts show they did not request to be in Class 19.
They were assigned to that class, making it a false claim that they knew of cash being available so they selected Class 19.
If i'm proven to be 100% wrong I will be the first to apologize but I suspect most won't care due to being rich.
I honestly hope those that profess riches for all will do the same if they are proven totally wrong also.
I also suspect their apology will be greeted with a much different response than mine will.
The claim was made and it was subordinated to Classes 18 + 19 prior to 2012 hence it's inclusion in the POR document. The settlement was agreed to in 2013 where the Class 18 claim was dismissed and the Class 19 allowed IN FULL for $72M. Could this mean that the 1.4M WMIH shares received was just an initial payment with the rest or more being paid later??? Seems possible based on the language.
Quote: "During the course of the Debtors’ chapter 11 cases, the Debtors objected to the indemnification claims and the claims were subordinated to Class 18 and Class 19 (as defined in the Plan). Pursuant to the terms of the Underwriter Stipulation, the parties have agreed that (a) the Underwriters’ $24.0 million Class 18 claim will be disallowed in full, and (b) the Underwriters’ $72.0 million Class 19 will be allowed in full."
"They could have been put in 18 19 or 22 classes correct."
No they couldn't as made quite obvious below...only Classes 18 + 19 and it was not voluntary. No need to speculate when the facts are clear!!!
"During the course of the Debtors’ chapter 11 cases, the Debtors objected to the indemnification claims and the claims were subordinated to Class 18 and Class 19 (as defined in the Plan).
My conservative guesstimate has always been and still is between $2B-$10B but there is some speculative evidence that it could be as much as $26B. All to be shared 75%/25% between Prefs and Commons as prescribed in the POR.
Did you read the quote I posted? The Debtors assigned the claim to Class 19 for the full $72M and the Underwriters accepted a settlement payment of 1.4M WMIH shares, FOR NOW. They did not select or dictate to the Debtors what class they wanted to be included in because they had inside info that Class 19 would be paid. The document showed that quite clearly for anyone who read it but with that said, it in no way means our Markers will not be well compensated. Two separate issues are being conflated.
I'm not disputing the possibility that the Underwriters could have inside info about Class 19 being well compensated, I am just pointing out that they did not choose to be in that Class as is being wrongly claimed.
Below is the true account of the Underwriters claims, they didn't SELECT a Class 19 claim, their claim was subordinated to Class 19 by the Debtors. This was eventually negotiated and a settlement was reached between both parties. Facts not speculation!
"During the course of the Debtors’ chapter 11 cases, the Debtors objected to the indemnification claims and the claims were subordinated to Class 18 and Class 19 (as defined in the Plan). Pursuant to the terms of the Underwriter Stipulation, the parties have agreed that (a) the Underwriters’ $24.0 million Class 18 claim will be disallowed in full, and (b) the Underwriters’ $72.0 million Class 19 will be allowed in full. Accordingly, pursuant to the Plan, the Underwriters, as the holders of Allowed Claims in Class 19, received a distribution of 1.4 million shares of common stock of Reorganized WMI from the Disputed Equity Escrow, such amount having been calculated in accordance with the Plan."
How do you know that the Underwriters wanted a Class 19 claim or was this result negotiated because they realized the cost of litigation would deplete their claim??? Settlements are not based on what one party wants but rather compromises are made by all parties involved. All speculation, which based on past experience has been wrong because of zero facts...were you there??? To dismiss any other scenario as possible is as I said, displaying Attentional Bias!!!
You seem to believe i'm claiming that the Underwriters will only receive the 1.4M WMIH shares, that is not the case.
Too many times generalizations are made based on limited info and have almost always turned out to be 100% wrong.
All i'm saying is there are other possibilities to the one being presented that everyone is eager to believe.
There is a severe problem here of Attentional Bias where many don't recognize that a positive outcome isn't guaranteed.
Quote: "If for some reason there is only 96M coming back, they will ??get it first?? but no more."
Members of the same class (19) can't be treated differently ie if only $96M comes back it will be shared among Class 19 and 22. If what I think you said is true then they will be entitled to entire $40M from the LT. I don't believe this will happen.
All true but as in many claims it's also possible that instead of expensive and prolonged litigation they could have ultimately settled for the 1.4M WMIH shares. We just don't know the true merits of their original $96M claim that they settled for so little.
The underwriters will get way less, proportionally, than us who bought Prefs for <$10 where the ROI will be 100X+ more than we paid.
If we get $2000/PQ my ROI will be 250X my investment, their ROI will only be 1.5X their $96M claim.
The perception that they will benefit more than us original holders is not accurate.
If you meant in terms of actual cash they receive, yes, but not more in proportion to their $96M claim
This all depends on if they even own equity interests in the estate.
Common sense would indicate they would have but so far I have seen no evidence of such. Though by them having a Class 19 designation this should mean they have Equity Interests in that class. This imo would entitle them to share in any SH assets that could return.
If by Class 19 "shares" you meant Escrow Cusips then yes, there is no evidence of that but they did receive a distribution of 1.4M WMIH shares.
This came from the Disputed Equity Reserve, ie a Class 19 share distribution as settlement for their original $96M claim.
Whether their allowance of a Class 19 claim entitled them to Preferred Equity Interests in the WMI estate and a share of any SH assets is left to be seen.
I agree with basically everything you posted, my only disagreement here is with the unsupportable claims that are made.
How actual documentation is constantly ignored and shoddy DD, at best, is accepted without question.
Imo cash will not come directly to our Cusips because the Trustees do not recognize us as owners of WMI Trust interests.
The WMILT as the "Successor In Interest" of WMI is the entity that legacy WAMU Trusts view as legal owners of any WMI interests.
Again I base my opinions on what actual documents state, taken in context, not on theories that have been constantly proven false.
The Prospectus's made it crystal clear what Preferred dividends were based on...ie the overall performance of WAMU, the company.
There is no direct link between Preferred and any WAMU Trusts as is constantly being claimed here.
WMI was almost wholly dependent on the performance of their subs and the contracted dividends paid to the parent by those subs.
This is not based on my opinion but stated facts which could be easily read if one desired to.
Covering for what exactly?...we have zero effect or input on what JMW will do. I actually prefer to be prepared for any outcome in a situation rather than being blindsided. I fortunately don't suffer from "Attentional Bias".
Let's just ignore the FACT that former WMI equity (Pq, Kq, Reits and Uq) were all cancelled along with the documents outlining their original rights to WMI property.
At any point if doubters would take the time to read ANY Preferred Prospectus, either Pq or Kq, they would see mentioned throughout that they are not backed by any Trusts...period!!!
This not only applies to the Preferred, but also to Commons, and Reits since the "Exchange Event" occurred because their assets were assumed by WMB, now JPM, as "core capital" to the bank.
Everything I just posted is 100% confirmable and supported in the POR and the Prospectus's, but i'm confident this info will not be verified but rather the unsupported opinions of posters will be accepted as fact.
EDIT: Was not directed at your contribution but rather the proponents of the "class specific Trusts" theory.
In every situation I tend to explore possible outcomes dispassionately, both positive and negative, that way if the desired result does not materialize I won't be taken by surprise.
Is it even possible that JMW could reverse her decision to dismiss the employees claims if the FDIC documents show that "Golden Parachute" rules were broken when they settled with some of the employees???
This IMO would show selective application of FDIC rules which JMW could view as unacceptable and request equal application for each employee based on the precedent set with those settlements.
This would definitely be disastrous for us since it would mean that both the employee claims and their lawyer fees would have to be paid from the DCR which would eliminate any payment we were set to receive.
He's referring to SH assets where Class 19 will receive 75% of those returns if they were also issued Preferred Equity Interests.
This obviously means they would receive more than Class 22 holders and more than their $96M claim IF over $14B comes back.
Do you or anyone else know if the settled DB Trusts are still active or have they been terminated?
If they were terminated, FDIC settlement funds could filter back to the WMILT for any snr or sub interests WMI held.
Hence the probate judge's "mom and pop" investors reference at the hearing in 2017.
The cash being withheld until the bankruptcy is closed, thus freeing up payments to our Markers.
Of zero importance if anyone does or not. Do the math...the numbers don't lie!
EDIT: If YOU don't believe SH assets are bk remote all that proves is how little you know.
Believe me, you'll get zero support here for that statementt!!!
You know exactly what...the rate of return for myself (250X) vs the underwriters (1.5X) for a $2000/PQ return.
Don't dodge the issue.
We have all agreed from day one that Safe Harbor assets are bankruptcy remote and therefore exempt from bankruptcy rules.
Please explain how Safe Harbor, bankruptcy remote assets could have been included in the POR or any LT filings which are both bankruptcy documents in a still active bankruptcy case?
This IMO is why only "certain" assets were transferred to the LT on the ED in 2012, because those any Safe Harbor assets available would have been unrecognized by the bankruptcy and also the WMILT.
If 75/25 results in $2000/PQ, I will receive 250X what I invested in those PQ's.
If the Underwriters also get $2000/PQ they only receive 1.5X their $96M claim.
Those who invested in PQ's @ $5-$10 or less have a much better ROI than the Underwriters.
This does not negate 75/25 happening at all but either way I don't believe they received Markers.
Still possible if JMW decides to get off her A$$ and sign the order since I believe the employees window to appeal has passed and is moot in any event.
Did the Underwriters also received Preferred Equity Interests (Markers) when they settled for a Class 19 claim or did they only receive WMIH shares in the settlement???
Yesterday you stated that the removal of WMI senior debt and subsequent release of WMI Trust assets would be "quite good for COOP", so with that said....How much of this potential $2.2B in cash (3% of WMCT 2001's $74B Trust) will COOP be receiving soon??? Waiting patiently.....
Asking for exact figures is a bit unfair since we were never privy to those documents.
I do agree however that the "know it all" attitude displayed is totally undeserved based on results.
The fact is most, if not all his predictions/DD has been consistently proven to be wrong.
Available documents prove as much but unfortunately flawed promises of riches blinds many here.
I do realize my posts tend to cause members who live in the $100B fantasy land to become "triggered".
Simple, because I actually own COOP shares and PQ Markers, and in addition to be one of the few dissenting voices that counters many of these garbage theories that are presented as actual DD eg S4V, NOLS are gone, COOP owns WMI estate assets etc etc. Nobody benefits when the discussion becomes an "echo chamber" for nonsense and foolish conspiracies.
I'm referring to specific posts where that idea is clearly being "asserted" based on the references to COOP.
This impression, if incorrect, could be resolved if a clear explanation was given on what is being stated,..but it never is.
I've always stated that it's possible COOP that could purchase WMI assets with CASH, NOT SHARES ie NO S4V.
Yet again totally irrelevant due to not reading and comprehending the posts being responded to. Just sad!
EDIT: Again in reference to the assertion in certain posts that COOP has legal ownership rights to any WMI Trusts assets.
A bit off today?...yes actually since my posts were yet again misconstrued to mean something else.
The LT does not accept SHARES...LOL. Only CASH, read the LT Agreement again!
I can confirm reading that in most Trust agreements, if not all, there are clauses that halt payments to entities that have filed for bankruptcy.
The main reason being to prevent Creditors from attempting to seize these assets/rights to payment from the bankrupt entity.
It makes no sense why anyone would think the WMILT lost it's ownership rights to WMI's Bk remote assets, IF ANY.
The LT keeps referring to itself in every document as WMI's and WMIIC's, "Successor In Interest" for a very specific reason.
COOP is not in bankruptcy therefore if they owned interests in WMI Trusts they would have been receiving payments since 2012 upon emergence.
Nothing so far. We should get a slightly clearer picture if Piers holders start receiving the LTI statements any day now.
So you believe posts that misleadingly assert that COOP could inherit billions from the WMI estate should not be challenged???
The WMILT can in no way be moot because it is the sole "Successor In Interest" to the WMI Estate and owner of ALL WMI property whether Bk remote or not. Facts matter, as evidenced below.....
Quote: : "WMI Liquidating Trust (“WMILT” or the “Trust”), as successor in interest to Washington Mutual, Inc. (“WMI”) and WMI Investment Corp. (“WMIC”), formerly debtors and debtors in possession (collectively, the “Debtors”)2, files this motion (the “Motion”) for an order"
Successor in Interest Law and Legal Definition. The term successor in interest means a successor to another's interest in property, especially a successor in ownership of a business that is carried on and controlled substantially as it was before the transfer.
NOTE: COOP (WMIH) was neither "carried on" nor "controlled" as WMI was in terms of ownership. It is a brand new company with a new ownership structure, totally different and separate from the former WMI.
We didn't buy anything associated with these Trusts, WMI (WMAAC, WMMSC etc) retained those interests before the bankruptcy, for the company's benefit which would indirectly benefit original shareholders.
The Trustee, usually a bank, eg DB, BNY etc are the only ones who would know whom the investors are and would be responsible for delivering payments to those investors, not the originating bank, eg WMB.
We only became involved because of the bankruptcy and the WMILT now being owners of those interests as successor to WMI. We inherited these interests from the WMI estate, nothing more.
What we "own" are the rights to the accumulated payments to WMI, now the WMILT, that were stopped when Bk was filed. Shareholders NEVER held any direct interests in any MBS Trust.
Quote, post 547017: "...Just stop including the WMI specific, WMI-LT to everything ?, ... read a QSR’, and keep the Performing Trust Returns separated to their individual participants…"
So essentially a certain poster is saying, stop associating WMI owned property with it's sole successor in interest, the WMILT...hmmmmmm, very interesting concept.
That would be like telling the lawyer for an estate to ignore the person(s) who inherited the estate from their benefactor...what absolute nonsense!
As for the QSR's, seems the reality that Bk remote assets cannot be reported in a Bk document, which a WMILT QSR clearly is, has not set in yet.