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So just because documents were redacted means we are set to receive $10's of billions to our Markers? Why is it not also possible that certain private and non public info is being protected rather than some windfall fantasy. Nobody outside of the process could know why those redactions were done so this speculation is useless. What is a fact is that JPM does not owe the FDIC anything more for WMB. The P&AA was not amended and has already expired making any further payment moot. Explain???
EDIT: Weren't those accounts for remitting WAMU's Tax returns and have already been distributing to the LT for years? Just because there are accounts does not prove they hold billions from JPM or any other source. Much of this type of unsupported speculation has always proven to be wrong.
Wouldn't any residual assets from the Capital Trust follow the pattern of WMIIC and WMMRC where they are contributed to the LT with COOP possibly receiving a small portion of any returns.
Also, the LT Agreement explicitly states that there will be "No Reversion" of LT Assets to the reorganized Debtor which IMO would include such Capital Trust assets.
The strict interpretation of LT Assets are "ALL" assets of the former WMI and WMIIC entities together with WMI, The Debtors, as of March 19th, 2012.
How do you explain the fact that the P&AA was never modified to indicate that JPM owes the FDIC more than the $1.88 it paid for WMB before it expired in 2014???
The FDIC recently replied to porkchopranch which showed that the P&AA expired since 2014 with no amendments.
This proves that JPM owes the FDIC nothing further re the WMB sale ie none of his "Final Payment" nonsense.
We also now know that after Piers debt is paid Class 18 claims are next in line before equity sees a single cent.
Those allowed claims are owed at least $38.2M which just about depletes the remaining cash held by the LT.
There are also disputed Class 18 claims (Class 17B Bonds) that have to be litigated to determine if they too will be paid.
This thing is going downhill fast IMO...not the outcome many were expecting at all.
Could you inquire if the $40.2B Asset Related Equity Adjustment in the Statement of Assets and Liabilities in Liquidation (internal document in post 518718) for the period ending December 31, 2008 represents $40.2B in retained WMB assets and the WMB Bond liability, OR rather a $40.2B markdown in the value of WMB assets plus the WMB Bond debt transferred to JPM. Any explanation of that document's accounting would be welcome.
You could include a link to the document or to post 518718 for him to reference the numbers quoted.
TIA
What email address were these questions addressed to???
We will not be receiving any distribution from the LT after Piers are paid. Next in line are Class 18 that are owed $38.2M in approved claims, plus disputed ones if approved which are yet to be adjudicated.
I am looking at when the bankruptcy will be closed to determine if there are additional assets to be distributed. I do not know when this will occur nor does anyone else so I won't speculate..
In a nutshell the FDIC is saying much of what we believe is incorrect. They did not seize, sell or hold any WMI owned assets.
Because of the urgency of the sale the asset list was deemed unnecessary so WMB's assets were sold en masse with no detailed record of what exactly was sold. The reference to the asset list in the P&AA was just an error.
The unamended P&AA expired in 2014 so there will be no further payments from JPM to the Receivership for WMB assets they already paid $1.88b for, ie NO "FINAL PAYMENT".
What FDIC email address were your questions sent to???
The initial message re the "Special Distribution in November" was taken down and recently reposted with more details.
When the Bk case is closed we should know whether there are assets outside the bankruptcy or our theories were all BS. I don't know exactly when...nobody does.
Looks that way, based on what's in the 10K the ~$40M left after Piers are paid will all go to Class 18 leaving nothing left for equity within the bankruptcy estate. That means any hope for a recovery will have to come from any assets held outside the bankruptcy process. We'll see soon enough!!!
OH WELL I GUESS THAT'S A BUST...... Basically Class 18 is currently owed $38.2M which could increase if Class 17B Note claims are allowed after further litigation. The $15M is just a part of the total owed to Class 18.
WMILT 2018 10K
PDF 14
Subordinated claims will be paid prior to any distribution to former holders of equity interests in WMI.
Trust Beneficiaries who were projected to receive value on account of their Allowed Claims against the Debtors have been issued LTIs evidencing their right to receive distributions from the Trust if, and to the extent, sufficient cash is available with respect thereto. If and when distributions from the Trust become available to Trust Beneficiaries who have not received LTIs to date, additional LTIs will be issued to such Trust Beneficiaries in accordance with the Plan and the distribution priorities that are summarized in Annex C of the Trust Agreement.
Pursuant to the Plan, holders of claims in Class 18 (“Subordinated Claims”) will receive distributions before the holders of claims in Classes 19, 21 and 22 (the former holders of equity interests in WMI (“Equity Interests”)). As of December 31, 2017, outstanding allowed Subordinated Claims totaled $38.2 million. In addition, during the Debtor’s bankruptcy proceedings, the Bankruptcy Court ordered that certain Class 17B claims (defined in the Plan as WMB Subordinated Notes Claims) be subordinated to the level of Class 18. Such Class 17B claims remain disputed and unliquidated. The allowance of any Subordinated Claims (including WMB Subordinated Notes Claims) would affect the amount, if any, of distributions that would otherwise be available to the former holders of Equity Interests. For additional information regarding these matters, see Item 3 of this Form 10-K under “WMB Subordinated Debt Misrepresentation Claims.”
So far I've only been able to confirm $15M in allowed claims for Class 18. There are some which are disputed but these are in the minority and according to the LT, will be litigated when that time arises.
Class 18 is subordinated claims, not equity, we are Classes 19 + 22.
They must be paid before us and are owed $15M, that I know of.
The $25M that could be distributed that would be $2.50/PQ.
Every $10M distributed to Tranche 6 equity equates to $1/PQ.
Did you ever receive any feedback re your enquiries to the FDIC???
Yes I believe a distribution to Piers, GUC's and for PPI will be made once JMW officially signs the order denying employees claims.
Our markers will most likely NOT receive a distribution yet since Class 18 subordinated claims must be paid before we do.
The lawyers claims is not an impediment to this distribution and can be adjudicated at some future date.
EDIT: The most important aspect of this distribution, when it's made, is that all WMI Creditors will be paid thus paving the way for closure of the bankruptcy case.
We may then get some long awaited answers to our questions about Safe Harbor assets and compensation to our markers.
Re PM.....Based on the content of the document I posted, I stand by my assertion.
On the wmitrust site there was a message for weeks that no distribution would be made to LTI's in November, then it was suddenly removed with no follow-up. The post is self explanatory.....
In this case they likely meant Senior Tranches in MBS's. See the breakdown for the Available for sale securities in the 2008 10Q. Most of those assets held were in the AAA, AA and (BBB?) Tranches.
Re PM...i'll have to disagree with your narrow assessment of Safe Harbor. In this document and several others I've read on this very topic they all clearly state that any retained Participating Interests, Snr and/or Sub, are held by independent SPV's to mitigate against risks of seizure precipitated by a Bankruptcy or Receivership of the Originator (eg WMB). If this is true then I cannot see how JPM could have secured these isolated securitized assets as part of the WMB purchase.
The document only references subordinated interests which are last in line to be paid but WAMU stated in several documents that they also retained Senior interests in their securitizations.
Paper supporting the belief that WMI and/or WMB are beneficiaries of Participating Interests retained by it's SPV's WMAAC and WMMSC in Trusts they created. The excerpts reference bankruptcy but it also applies to the FDIC's WMB Receivership when examined in conjunction with WAMU's comment letter to the FASB. It describes how the assets are retained and automatically isolated from the parent/originator by Safe Harbor rules. The result being they are protected from Bankruptcy creditors, and Receivership claimants to a lesser extent.
Read from Bankruptcy Firewalls and the Issuance Vehicle on pg 21 to the start of the next section/heading on pg 24.
Issuer Perspectives on Securitization
Either way I don't see the lawyers claims exceeding $5M which is well within the $40M that should be left. Does anyone know the exact dollar figure the lawyers claiming as compensation?
Based on my knowledge they agreed to work on a contingency basis, being paid once the employees won. They lost, so I don't get why this is now being used as an excuse for further delays.
IMO there is little to no chance she changes her ruling since the superior district court already ruled against the employees. Unless the FDIC does a 180 and decides to engage the employees this is essentially over.
Quote: "and given COOP stock to its real owners, don't ya think"
Obviously he wasn't. Never heard of a servicer using it's stock as part of a loan servicing transaction.
First off you blatantly misquoted his post...he clearly was referring to servicing, not purchasing assets. Why?...because I don't accept bs theories just because they are beneficial to my interests. Enough with these deceptive posting practices already, it's pathetic!
RD quote: "Boarding assets for servicing of safe harbor assets should be recognized and given COOP stock to its real owners, don't ya think"
Did COOP purchase the $50B in assets they boarded recently??? The answer is a resounding NO.
Servicing of assets is not ownership. Servicers are paid fractions out of the loan payments they collect. They are not purchasing anything. Where do you get this from!
EDIT: What I know now is that you don't have a clue what servicing loans entails. A servicer has no ownership rights to the loans they service, only their fees.
My biggest concern is that the docs will show the FDIC breaking their own rules and may have illegally settled with certain employees while denying others. If they could show bad faith by the FDIC it's possible JMW could alter her ruling and force settlement talks. Although the chance of this is slim to none I won't rule anything out as impossible.
How curious that COOP owns rights to possible WMI Safe Harbor assets yet did not assume any of WMI's liabilities that's being paid by the WMILT only. Deal of the century!!!
A few are literally losing it as the end approaches...good grief!
No I don't and am not sure how you came to that conclusion. See post 547607.
You keep repeating the same erroneous argument over and over, it doesn't work that way...never has nor ever will.
WAMU's $300B in ASSETS, (not all loans) were comprised of ~$30B in MBS's retained as investments, these were Avail. for sale securities and Trading assets...pg 2 of 10Q.
The vast majority of the $300B you are quoting were non securitized, non safe harbored, WMB owned Portfolio loans...pg 2 of 10Q.
The loans that were securitized ie safe harbor assets were not part of those $300B in assets, you are mistaken.
Securitized loans were off balance, see pages 2 + 60 of the 2008 10Q I posted for confirmation of exactly what i'm saying.
WMI could not secure 2.9% in interest income because the $231B portfolio loans of the $300B in ASSETS belonged to WMB and so was the interest income.
The off balance securitized loans ie MBS's principle and interest income was sold to investors, not kept under WMI...pg 60 of 10Q.
WMI only received cash for the percentage of Participating Interests that were retained by the company.
WMI would not have kept that interest income because it would have been susceptible to seizure by their bankruptcy creditors.
I don't get why this is so difficult to comprehend, and btw there's no beef, I just don't agree with your analysis. Read the 2008 10Q, it's all there in plain English!!!
EDIT: Provide one post where CBA or a document that quotes this 2.9% of WAMU's $300B in assets were secured by WMI. You can't because such proof does not exist. Your whole premise is based on a false impression that WAMU's $300B in assets were somehow solely loans or were securitized, hence your continuous error.
Quote: "If you believe in the latter then good luck on living life with no hope."
I actually do have hope...hope that we are correct that the FDIC did retain $26B in WAMU investment assets (MBS's) for the benefit of the Receivership and enough will be left that filters to equity.
I also have hope that Participating Interests possibly retained by WAMU subs, WMAAC and WMMSC etc, to which WMI is entitled to a share of or all returns will also be returned to our Markers.
What I cannot support is your conflation of WMB owned loan assets with securitized assets in which WMI may still hold residual interests. They are not one in the same.
He evaluated WAMU without once laying eyes on the company's books which would have every detail but rather used their incomplete public filings to make a valuation.
Posting the same false info over and over won't make it true. As I said you're confusing securitized Safe Harbor assets with WMB's Portfolio loans which is 100% WRONG. Whether you decide to believe it or not is your issue.
EDIT: WAMU does not equate to WMI...WAMU is comprised of WMI, WMB and all their subs. The consolidated filings do not indicate which party owned what. FDIC/OTS rules however do mandate that the bank's assets and capital cannot be transferred to other members of the group leaving the bank under capitalized, that was not allowed!!!. That means the loans created by WMB were owned by WMB, not WMI. WMI would have been entitled to dividends from WMB once WMB remained fully capitalized. Your analysis is basic and as such is incorrect.
Again, you're conflating separate issues...MBS's sold to investors are principle and interest income or interest income only. Investors owned the bulk of the interest income (your 2.9%), WMI/WMB only owned the percentage of the asset principle and/or interest income they retained as an investment,...or the cash flow generated by the retained interest.
MBS's: WMB ""sold"" 1000's of loans to SPE's like WMAAC and WMMSC which then transferred these loans to Trusts they created. The Trusts then securitized the loans, sold the securities to investors and sent the resulting cash back to WMB as payment. What WMI would have done is retain interests in these Trusts through it's indirect subs WMAAC and WMMSC, the cash from which would be pledged to WMI or both WMI and WMB. These interests are the Safe Harbor assets we hope will come back once the bankruptcy closes.
Portfolio Loans: These are the loans ($231B as of June 2008) that were not yet securitized or were not going to be securitized by WMB. The interest payments from these loans would have been reflected in every WAMU filing but were directly owned by WMB, ie it's Core Capital/Assets. These loans were seized by the FDIC and sold to JPM and would have made up the bulk of the $258B in assets JPM ""bought"" from the FDIC. Now being the property of JPM, all interest income from these loans belong to JPM, these are NOT Safe Harbor loan assets.
From day one, longer than most posting here I've owned WAMU stock, even Commons, so to ask "why am i here", is truly puzzling. The answer is NO, I don't believe JPM owes the FDIC anything. I believe it's possible the FDIC retained about $26B in WAMU assets that will be used to settle it's bond debt with the remains going to equity. That belief is yet to be confirmed or debunked, we'll know soon enough.
Like I said, securitized assets are isolated from both WMI and WMB (WAMU, the Company). The only interest income WAMU owned were from their retained assets. QSPE are usually independent Trusts created to achieve Safe Harbor protection of the Trust's mortgage assets.
Pg 60 of 10Q
Quote: "The Company transforms loans into securities through a process known as securitization. When the Company securitizes loans, the loans are usually sold to a qualifying special-purpose entity ("QSPE"), typically a trust. The QSPE, in turn, issues securities, commonly referred to as asset-backed securities, which are secured by future cash flows on the sold loans. The QSPE sells the securities to investors, which entitle the investors to receive specified cash flows during the term of the security. The QSPE uses the proceeds from the sale of these securities to pay the Company for the loans sold to the QSPE. These QSPEs are not consolidated within the financial statements since they satisfy the criteria established by Statement No. 140, Accounting (edit: ie SAFE HARBOR) for Transfers and Servicing of Financial Assets and Extinguishments of Liabilities. In general, these criteria require the QSPE to be legally isolated from the transferor (the Company), be limited to permitted activities, and have defined limits on the types of assets it can hold and the permitted sales, exchanges or distributions of its assets."
See page 2 of link. The vast majority of WAMU's $300B in assets were Portfolio loans ($231B) which were direct assets of WMB, not WMI. These were not MBS's!!!
WAMU June 2008 10Q
You are conflating two issues re securitized loans and wholesale loans.
Quote: "The securitized rights (i.e. MBS) to the 2.9% interest profit margin to the $300B loan portfolio was held under the parent holding company (WMI) for 1) to protect it from potential bank (WMB) seizure"
The above quote is 100% incorrect, MBS's are not recorded on the books so those assets are not included in the $300B in WAMU assets unless they were retained by WAMU. These would only be the MBS's WAMU retained as investments (see note below). That 2.9% interest is held by the Trustee for each Trust, not WMI.
Securitized loans are not owned by either WMI or WMB, they are controlled by independent Trustees on behalf of their investors. All WMI is entitled to with these assets are the returns from any retained interests in these Trusts, nothing more.
The loans yet to be securitized were owned WMB, not WMI so upon the sale to JPM all loans and interest income went to JPM. Do you actually believe JPM assumed WMB loans and WMI retained the interest income...seriously???
These wholesale loans were the ones that were seized and sold to JPM in 2008, the securitized assets were not part of that transaction. Again, WMI did not own any loan assets as they were susceptible to bankruptcy making such assets open to seizure by Creditors and they would also not qualify for Safe Harbor protection.
NOTE: WAMU MBS investments that were on the books included their Available for sale securities and Trading assets which were valued at ~$30B as of June 2008.
That's exactly what the FDIC did, they sold WMB's loan portfolio to JPM for accepting the deposit base liability.
This has all been litigated and adjudicated between the FDIC, JPM and the Debtors, the result of which was the POR.
There may still be some WAMU assets that were retained by the FDIC for the benefit of the Receivership.
This however does not even come close to generating the $8B in interest revenue you quoted.
See post 518718, of WAMU's $300B in assets $258B was transferred to JPM so i'm not sure what other assets you're referring to.
Securitized loans are off balance and therefore not owned by WMB and thus not reported in their financials.
These loans were owned by 3rd party investors with WAMU retaining a small percentage in each Trust which would return cash payments.