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In other words you believe the common shares of WMCT, meaning any remaining asset value wholly owned by WMI was transferred to WMIH (COOP)...correct?
If yes, why would the LT retain the Piers Creditor debt which was backed by WMCT's assets and allow WMIH to receive those assets free and clear. That makes no sense IMO.
This appears to be the same situation as with WMIIC where the much referenced asset-less shell in which WMIH owned 100% equity was dissolved.
I don't see how any WMCT 2001 assets would be transferred to WMIH when ALL of WMIIC's assets were also transferred to the WMILT on the ED and the empty shell to went to WMIH.
None of the assets of entities assumed by WMIH were transferred to WMIH except for the remnants of WMMRC's run-off portfolio, the vast majority of which belonged to the WMILT.
EDIT: Note all the transferred entities are shell companies with no assets. The assets of WMIIC and the run-off portfolio went to the WMILT and WMB's assets to JPM and the FDIC.
"1.192 Reorganized WMI: WMI, on and after the Effective Date, which shall include One Hundred Percent (100%) of the equity interests of WMI Investment, WMMRC and, subject to the abandonment of the equity interests of WMB, WMB."
This is not my theory, I was just providing my interpretation to jerry of what AZ previously posted...did you even read my post!?!...apparently not!
The theory is that WMI owned/owns a percentage of WM Capital Trust 2001. This is the Trust from which Piers were issued and supporting assets were held. If correct we could see a return from this Trust at some point. I don't know much about this particular Trust so I reserve commenting. It does sound plausible even though many other failed theories did also. W'ell see...…………….
Capital Trust
A form of financial trust that differs from other trusts in that it looks more like a fixed income instrument than an equity issue. Capital trusts are generally issued by banks or other financial intermediaries. These investment vehicles trade like a debt instrument with $1,000 face value and trade with accrued interest. The business objective of capital trusts is to acquire and hold assets that will generate net income for distribution to unit holders. The trust's assets may consist of residential mortgages, mortgage co-ownership interests, mortgage-backed securities, other eligible investments, and other qualified debt obligations. Capital trust assets are usually acquired from and serviced by the issuing institution and/or its affiliates.
I don't recall ever reading anywhere that the stock of WMCT 2001 was to be transferred to WMIH, nor was WMB stock, which WMI abandoned. Can you cite a reference or link which corroborates the WMCT stock claim???
The statement was, All assets of the Debtors, WMI + WMIIC, including intercompany claims would go to the WMILT except…
100% equity of WMIIC which went to WMIH
100% equity of WMMRC, also went to WMIH
The stock of WMB, which was abandoned by the Debtors. It never stated WMIH assumed WMB's stock that was abandoned to create the NOLS. That does not compute.
I'm taking your word that the docs stated that in the event of a bankruptcy the "liquidation preference is activated", the "Trust is converted into cash" and is "distributed to Shareholders".
Simple question,...did the document specify how Preferred would be treated if they were not paid in full, reclassified as equity and were cancelled along with Commons, including ALL documentation???
Also, as you stated, WMI maintained a 3% ownership in the WMCT 2001 Trust.
Please explain how that legacy ownership does not pass on to the WMILT since they are obviously WMI's sole "Successor In Interest"
Successor in Interest Law and Legal Definition. The term successor in interest means a successor to another's interest in property, especially a successor in ownership of a business that is carried on and controlled substantially as it was before the transfer.
Since any question requesting clarification on that issue is never addressed one can only refer to what those posts seem to infer. Maybe if you asked you would get an answer since no one else has had any luck.
The point he's trying to make is that COOP does not benefit from any returned legacy assets.
COOP (WMIH) is the successor of WMI, the WMILT is the Successor In Interest of the Debtors (WMI + WMIIC).
The term Successor In Interest (WMILT) refers to the transfer of ownership rights...a Successor (COOP) is simply the new company that emerged due to reorganization.
Why if COOP was entitled to $10's-$100's Billions in legacy assets would they dilute our ownership in those assets to <20% for $600M cash and a merger with a company worth ~$2B, with almost $2B in debts.
That makes absolutely no sense yet some here continue to insist that "~'..COOP is the tell".."...rubbish!
Still waiting on your reference or link to that fake claim.
I asked for proof that the FDIC owed WMI shareholders as you boldly claimed...querying the meaning of inception is your answer??? Why am I not surprised.
Quote: "So per the FDIC's inception charter, they owe the shareholders of WMI $50B."
This is a major problem here, posting fake info and claiming it's factual. The FDIC never stated this, it's FALSE! Where's the link, unlike many here most of my major claims are backed by references or links. Where is the link for this claim???
They benefitted to the tune of probably $50B+ overall and the excuse for this was if WAMU failed the FDIC's coffers and the Banking system would collapse, hence the need for this unprecedented sale. This talk about a final payment is fake since it would mean JPM needs to pay the FDIC's WMB Bond debt of $13.8B before Equity sees one cent. This will never happen!!!
At one point in history the ""consensus"" was that the earth was flat, today the SCAM (eg France) is that human activity is responsible for Climate Change,...both are WRONG!!! Those who share my view aren't being fooled by $100's Billions to Markers, S4V and a whole bunch of erroneous rubbish, that would be you guys.
Vitriol? Do you even know what it means? Doesn't seem so since those types of responses come from members that share your view.
Propaganda doesn't work when done in isolation, it becomes effective when multiple sources parrot the same fake or deeply biased info. Now apply that to the MSM with all their repetitive talking points and narratives that usually end up being 100% wrong.
Please continue posting and proving my point......
On this I fully agree, I will, and i'm sure many others also, will feel very foolish if our theories of substantial returns does not materialize. 10 years is a long time to be expecting a positive outcome so I sincerely hope that it turns out that we were correct, or at least, mostly correct.
Class 17 does not have to be paid before Class 18 as is nonsensically being claimed here. Class 17A claims (WMB Snr Bonds) were given a $335M payment as part of the POR but their $6B claim is owed by the FDIC-R. Class 17B claims (WMB Sub Bonds) were disallowed so that $7.8B debt is also owed by the FDIC-R. There are certain Class 17B claims that were Rule 510(b) Subordinated to Class 18 but are disputed. These claims have to be litigated to determine if they will be paid by the WMILT. He does not know what he's talking about, as usual (#'s 549112 + 549250).
POR...pg 57
(c) Class 17B – WMB Subordinated Notes. On the Effective Date, and in consideration for the distribution to be made to the FDIC Receiver pursuant to the Global Settlement Agreement, all WMB Subordinated Notes Claims, to the extent that they are not Section 510(b) Subordinated WMB Notes Claims, shall be deemed disallowed, and holders thereof shall not receive any distribution from the Debtors.
WMILT 2018 10K...pdf 14
As of December 31, 2017, outstanding allowed Subordinated Claims totaled $38.2 million. In addition, during the Debtor’s bankruptcy proceedings, the Bankruptcy Court ordered that certain Class 17B claims (defined in the Plan as WMB Subordinated Notes Claims) be subordinated to the level of Class 18. Such Class 17B claims remain disputed and unliquidated
TPG and other investors injected $7.5B in WAMU but TPG's own exposure was only $1.5B-$2B max.
I believe at least one of them stemmed from the cash capitalization/intercompany loans WMI made to WMB in the months and year(s) preceding the seizure.
Hence WMI considered itself to be a valid Creditor of WMB and requested reimbursement for those loans which totaled about $5B-$10B (???), or possibly more if I remember correctly.
As noted in the Abandonment Motion, the GSA does not "release or withdraw" these claims against the FDIC-R or FDIC-C in terms of the WMB Receivership. If there are any other claims, I am unaware of such.
Both posts by CBA and Mordi seemed to mesh nicely in terms of the content and relevance to the WMILT. I have much respect for both posters so I viewed each of their contributions as credible. IMO, the POR asserting that ALL WMI + WMIIC assets belong to the WMILT also bolsters this argument. Also note the "Abandonment Motion" states that this action does not release the FDIC of the Debtors Creditor claims against them.
NOTICE REGARDING ABANDONMENT OF EQUITY INTERESTS IN WASHINGTON MUTUAL BANK
PLEASE TAKE NOTICE that, pursuant to the Order Authorizing Washington Mutual, Inc. to Abandon Its Equity Interests in Washington Mutual Bank, dated July 11, 2011 [D.I. 8135], and the Order Reaffirming Order Authorizing Washington Mutual, Inc. to Abandon Its Equity Interests in Washington Mutual Bank, dated September 19, 2011 [D.I. 8629] (collectively, the “Orders”), the United States Bankruptcy Court for the District of Delaware (the “Bankruptcy Court”) (i) authorized Washington Mutual, Inc. (“WMI”) and its chapter 11 estate, upon the entry of an order confirming a chapter 11 plan in their chapter 11 cases, to abandon their equity interests in the outstanding stock (the “WMB Stock”) of Washington Mutual Bank (“WMB”), and (ii) established that, upon such abandonment, WMI and its chapter 11 estate shall automatically be deemed to have permanently surrendered and relinquished all of their right, title and interest to the WMB Stock, including any recovery rights and/or litigation claims with respect thereto; provided, however, that such abandonment shall not constitute a withdrawal or release of any claims asserted by WMI as a creditor of WMB against the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (the “FDIC”), in its capacity as receiver for WMB or in its corporate capacity, on account of WMI’s status as a creditor, and does not constitute a withdrawal or release of any rights under the Second Amended and Restated Settlement Agreement, dated as of February 7, 2011, among WMI, FDIC and the other signatories thereto (as amended, the “Global Settlement Agreement”).
Note the absolute silence after actual proof of what I said was provided.
JPM has already paid $1.88B for the WMB assets they acquired, there will be no further payment. This was stated to porkchopranch by his contact in the FDIC.
Re floydborga….learn to read and use a computer.
Post 545556....last I checked $40B was between $30B and $50B. As I said FRAUD!!!!
Carefully read any post where I reference over my long held $2B-$10B figure. I always or almost always (omission by error) state that is my overly optimistic guesstimate by which I mean I don't have much faith it will happen. I do respect the opinions of both Dr. A and CBA immensely,....but, both as you know were never privy to any privileged or material info upon which valid claims could be based. Look at it this way.....
$0-$40M : 100% Assured (EDIT: Not anymore)
$100M-$2B : Likely
$2B-$10B : Possible
$10B-$24B : Somewhat Possible, but very unlikely (<20%)
$30B-$50B : Impossible
$50B+ : WILL NEVER HAPPEN !!!
Ques: "How or why did that not flow to JPM ?"
WAMU's (WMI + WMB + All Subs) financials were consolidated, meaning the $300B+ in assets did not all belong to WMB. WMI as the parent company had certain rights to assets owned by the all it's subs, including WMB. The $M question is whether those rights are still valid or were they voided by the Receivership. As CBA asserted, WMI abandoned their equity in WMB on behalf of the Bk estate, not their TITLE to any property they had rights to as Debtors. The WMILT is now successor to the Debtors, NOT COOP!!!
$2-$40B??? Yet again posting false and fake info since there is no such post where I state such a spread. I've always maintained $2-$10B is what I strongly believe but there is a slight possibility that it could be as much as $26B, ""IF"", we are correct that the FDIC retained this amount as it seems they did (post 518718). That $2-$40B claim is as fake as the S4V theory.
Posts 547493 and 545096 etc prove otherwise. Pathetic really!!!
Yes, that's exactly what i'm saying!!! Creditors would not have had access to the Trust's assets if WMI could not pay them in full. They would however been able to IMO seize the "paper" WMI held that showed their ownership of rights to the cash generated by those assets. This is all moot since WMI was able to satisfy most Creditors with assets they possessed and the Tax returns.
Quote: "WMI Liquidating Trust (“WMILT” or the “Trust”), as successor in interest to Washington Mutual, Inc. (“WMI”) and WMI Investment Corp. (“WMIC”), formerly debtors and debtors in possession (collectively, the “Debtors”)2,
If those assets were on the books of WMB they were sold to JPM in 2008, the excuse being that a WAMU failure would have decimated the FDIC's reserve fund. WMI, as parent to WMB would have been entitled to all or most likely some of the profits that were generated by those $30B in commercial mortgages, which IMO the WMILT is now entitled to. Apparently some posters, eg xoom and others, are confused since they believe i'm saying we have no value left which occurs because of a failure to understand what they're reading.
The book value (BV) is the recorded price paid for the asset while the market value (MV) is it's current value of the asset.
Using your example, the BV of a property bought 50 yrs ago would be much less than the current MV of the property.
If the property became dilapidated or undesirable and depreciate in value only then would the BV be greater than it's MV.
Connect the dots......
CBA09: Post 498722 (12/05/17)- "Yes these SPE's/Trust are the "Crown Jewel" of WMI in it's capacity of being the Parent. Also Facts of great importance:
2) WMI abandoned it's stock as worthless on record with the Estate. The Estate in turn diverted all future benefits back to WMI. A clever astute move by WMI."
Mordicai: Post 525774 (07/10/18)- "Abandonment under Code § 554 removes property from the bankruptcy estate and returns the property to the debtor as though no bankruptcy occurred. Since "an order of abandonment acts only as an abandonment of the estate's interest in the property and not as an abandonment of the debtor's interest," the debtor' s title to the abandoned property after abandonment is effective, nunc pr o tunc, as of the date of the filing of the petition. Title, therefore, was deemed to revest in the debtor upon abandonment.
In contrast, under the Code, an estate composed of all of the debtor's interest in property is created upon the filing of the petition or the entry of an order for relief pursuant to Code § 541(a). The trustee has control of the property, not title to the property, and Code § 554 simply divests the trustee of that control. The abandonment process was intended under the Code to simplify case administration by restoring the debtor's prepetition interest in the abandoned property. The only determination made by the trustee and the court in the § 554 abandonment process is that the property is (1) burdensome to the estate, or (2) of inconsequential value. In making this determination, the trustee is guided by the best interests of the estate, not necessarily the interests of the debtor and creditors."
The P&AA expired since 2014 with no amendments so JPM has no obligation to make any further payments to the FDIC. In addition a poster(?) received a response from the FDIC where it was stated that the FDIC expects no further payment from JPM. As far as JPM is concerned their financial involvement in the WMB Receivership is over!!!
Securitized assets are off-balance therefore they are not reflected in financial filings.
Retained interests however must be accounted for in all financials by the company.
If one looks at the last 10Q filed by WAMU, it does not show $30B+ in retained assets.
It does though show WAMU retained about $26B in mortgage assets on it's books.
When compared to the $692B in mortgages WAMU securitized it comes to 3.75% of that total.
Since no direct info is available, I inferred that figure based on the known info.
WAMU only retained a small percentage in the Trusts they created, (2-3%) not 20%+ as has been suggested.
Using 3% of the $692B in securitizations carried out by WAMU, that only equates to ~$20.8B, NOT $86B.
The FDIC screwed WAMU by gifting most of it's assets to JPM for $1.88B.
You obviously don't know what you're talking about...get over it!!!
All the wishful thinking in the world won't change the fact that $10's of Billions ($20B+) will not be coming back to our Markers or even worse, COOP, which has nothing to do with any possible Debtor assets.
Quote: "A cost to FDIC is, basically, a payment to stakeholders. What's the matter with you?"
This classic was sent in response to my last post. Good grief!!! LOLOLOLOLOL
Quote: "The FDIC estimated that it would have cost $42 billion to liquidate Washington Mutual, a sum that would have depleted the entire balance of the Deposit Insurance Fund at the time.
Do you know what "COST" means??? $42 Billion is not coming back, it's a fantasy!!!
Using possible residual subordinated interests in the DB Trusts.....
DB had repurchase agreements with WAMU to replace defective, non-performing loans that were managed by the DB Trustee. This meant that the flawed loans would have to be replaced with performing loans that would not affect the contracted returns to investors.
This protection IMO included WMI's interest in residual assets held by the DB Trustee. If WMB wasn't seized the losses on these interests may have been absorbed by the company as they would have had to personally replace the loans themselves.
Since the FDIC assumed control of WMB they became responsible for those assets and therefore had to meet the repurchase requirements. This IMO means that any WMI owned residual interest in the DB Trusts will have to be compensated since the FDIC placed WMB into receivership.
This is why the settlement was reached between DB and the FDIC rather than JPM and DB. IMO WMI should see some level of return from the $600M+ DB received from the FDIC and possibly more if the remaining $2.4B is eventually paid.
Their investment in COOP has nothing to do with their Equity Interests in the WMI/WMIIC estate. They can sell their COOP shares but they can't sell their Markers, they are stuck with them.
Not going to happen, definitely nothing from the FDIC and JPM. The FDIC has made their position abundantly clear from the onset. They will not be honoring the CIC clause of the employees as it contravenes their rules.
Out of a job re the WMILT...he's a partner in Proskauer Rose. He won't be that bothered.