Linda is biotch...! LOLz JayKay
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Depends on who you ask what is "quite a bit". It just means more shares per P you own. THe exact amount per P, if I recall someone did a rough estimate, was about 25 new shares per P.
This does not even factor in if the 70/30 split changes in favor of preferreds, then it would even be more.
However, don't quote me the 25. That is just from memory and someone rough math.
imo
The reorganized entity needs funds to operate. Money will come from the liquidation trust provided that there is money left over from the Class 16 on down.
imo
Means more shares for prefferds come distribution time. eom
Wanger, you are still buying more commons after Willingham sold commons down the river???? Seriously???
See para 38.
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229120213000000000021.pdf
imo
LOL, yes you are correct. Class 20 use to be the place holder from the "OLD" POR for P/K.
Yes, Class 19, is the current place for P/K/REITS/TPS, etc.
Thanks.
imo
I wouldn't say it was a "trap" because the EC sent out their Q&A that addressed the possibility of the 70/30% split may change as well as the debtor's DS/POR which indicated the same disclosure.
BY commons voting to accept the plan, they accepted the possibility of the 70/30% split to be altered and left to the Court to decide during confirmation.
imo
Yes, you only really need 1 impaired class to vote to accept the plan to have the plan confirmable.
The fact that Class 16 voted to accept the plan is especially important and bodes will for Class 20 though 22, because they were the fulcrum group who were the eventual owners of reorganized WMI.
By Class 16 accepting the plan, by both numbers and value, they accepted the transfer of reorganized WMI from Class 16, to Classes 20 though and including Class 22.
So any objections from Class 16 pro se, etc. will be squashed.
This plan is going to be confirmed. You have every Class accepting the plan EXCEPT for the lowest Class (that counts, common vote really does not count, only their releases)
Since Class 20 voted not to accept the plan, they did not consent to the 70/30% split of the reorganized WMI and the liquidation trust between equity tiers, ie. commons and preffereds.
Now, as it appears, that is the only thing left to confirm the plan.
We will find the results at the end of the confirmation hearing commencing, I believe, Feb 16, 2012.
imo
I agree, the evidence does support your post plus I am.sure the aaoc has an incentive to push this plan through confirmation and end the it "it" allegations.
Imo
Needs to be 2/3 or more imo/eom
Rocki, when to talk to people who are in love with their stock, all rational goes out the window.
They will only listen to "the good", and not the flip side. Anyone not in the "pump/cheer" camp are immediately labeled as naysayers, bashers, etc.
They only see the reward and dismiss the risk associated in such a speculative investments.
This happens on all stock boards.
Fortunately for the Wamu commons, they, imo, will still receive a distribution, although reduced.
Although, I do agree with you, for some, not all, you cannot feel sorry them. Some were innocent that fell for the "pump".
imo
I can't feel sorry for commons if they get left out in the cold....they had all the time in the world to stock up on preferreds....they are called preferreds.... because they are better...nuff said.
Those are the claim holders who are being converted from Class 18, to new commons within the 30% split, Class 22.
One of the claimants in Class 18 could be the PFG claim. If remember correctly, about $54 million is being converted of their claim to Class 22.
In other words dilution to Class 22.
imo
CAN ANYONE ELOBARATE LITTLE MORE ON THIS PLEASE
11 Calculated with those votes, cast by holders of claims which have been, pursuant to Court order, subordinated to
the level of Class 22, converted into share count by dividing the amount of each such Claim by the per share price of
WMI common stock as of the Petition Date, $0.1604.
12 Calculated with such votes converted into share count by dividing the amount of each such Claim by the per share
price of WMI common stock as of the close of business on the day immediately preceding the Petition Date,
$1.6900.
13 Calculated with such votes converted into share count by dividing the amount of each such Claim by the per share
price of WMI common stock as of December 12, 2011, $0.0730.
Another positive of the vote tabulation is that PIERS Class 16 votes to "accept" the plan in both dollar amount and number of voters.
At least they can't, as the fulcrum, object to WMI2 moving from Class 16 to Classes 19 through 22.
IMO, this was important for Class 16 to accept as the actual fulcrum.
The common vote never mattered, it was just their releases.
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229120213000000000026.pdf
imo
DECLARATION OF DAVID M. SHARP WITH
RESPECT TO THE TABULATION OF VOTES ON AND ELECTIONS
PURSUANT TO THE SEVENTH AMENDED JOINT PLAN OF AFFILIATED
DEBTORS PURSUANT TO CHAPTER 11 OF THE UNITED STATES
BANKRUPTCY CODE WITH RESPECT TO SECURITIES VOTING CLASSES
Class 16 – PIERS Claims
Page 10.
Accepted:
856 (84.67%)
$771,478,598.22 (99.11%)
Rejected:
155 (15.33%)
$6,959,274.50 (0.89%)
http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229120213000000000026.pdf
Theoretically based on the POR, you have 1 year to give the release, however, it really all depends on your broker, whether they will provide you the additional opportunity to tender your release beyond the "voting" deadline.
Also, you have to factor in the T+3 settlement time.
I took no chances, I sent mine in.
Bottom line: It all depends on your broker. Not all brokers are the same and have different procedures.
Sorry, i could not shed any more light on the subject.
imo
Release = distribution
No Release = No distribution
That is how they will know how much to distribute.
Last day, depends on your broker, if they will even take a release past Feb 9 or what your broker designated as your deadline. Not 1 year.
imo
I am 100% certain that CT is "considered" subdebt. If you know how it is structured, then you would agree as well.
Sorry to say, if you think the $65 is a settlement, then I am certain this is your first bankruptcy.
There is a person on here that "claims" that their wife is an attorney who practices in bankruptcy law.
I suggest you tell that person to confirm that $65 billion is not a settlement and that seniors are entitled to 100% payment in full plus post petition interest.
I am certain. I guarantee it. I am 100% sure. I am positive.
imo
Whoa slow down there....65 billion is the approved claims. Unless its an approved claim, it will not be paid out. An allowed claim has to get approved to be paid. The 65 billion is negotiated on like 20 cents on the dollar. It is not a projection. You need to get that cleared up. I do not think you read filings and just following the word of the boards is misleading. That is BK for you. It will not be called BK if they have to pay everything. If they will have to pay everything then why file for BK protection....go figure..devil
BTW, Please do not make claims of certainty because you do not know. None of us do. CTs, I hope is debt too but only time will tell when the effective date is issued. I can tell you this CTs are not the sub-debt that is guarantee(ing) the CTs. You mean LEHNQ and the other 3 is guarantee(ing) themselves? No way. Does not even make sense....go figure..devil
1. The $65 billion is not an allowed claim nor a settlement, it is what debtors project they can produce in 3 years. The balance is due and owing until paid in full.
2. Yes, there are disputed claims. Some can be "slashed", allowed, settled, etc.
3. CTs are not part of that 1 trust share. I wouldn't worry about that. They are sub debt.
Good night.
imo
marayatano:
I think you need to understand a few things. Although there might me some wishful thinking in the logic below, it is not impossible. Here is why.....
Feel free to add your 2 cents....
1. approved claim is 65 billion. That means of the hundreds of billions of debt, bonds..etc. holders, 95 percent signed up for this 65 billion approved claim by the judge. Therefore, most claims are settled for that amount
2. Disputed claims have been slased significantly this past month. You have to re read the releases. I think the dispted cliams are now sitting at like 50ish billion (correct me if i am wrong)....and it is not over...LEhman is now suing citi for another 2.5 billion......
3. Here is the argument. Because of the hybrid status of CTs, The one share for equity might not apply to them. We can all argue about it but time will tell shortly. If they are not included in the 1 share equity trust, they will continue trading on the new and better financially improved lehman exiting from BK. And we hope the stock will appreciate then because they do hold good assets...also if not in the trust, and they exit BK, lehman have to pay CTs divy on the 20th payment date. It will no longer be suspended and it will be out of BK rules. IMO, those are a few reasons to buy.....
AND THE OTHER IS PLAYING the subdebt guarantee status...i will not get into that because its been beat to the ground already....
go figure..devil
Yes, they are entitled to principal plus post petition interest. imo/eom
IMO, the guarantee on a subordinate security are worthless because they are contractually subordinated to seniors. If they pay on the guarantee, the seniors will take it away.
Plus, the trustee never put the guarantee in their proof of claim.
imo
The projection was it will take 3 years to come up with $65 billion to pay higher tier LBHI creditors. The estimate that $65 billion equates to about 21% recovery based on selling assets over the course of 3 years.
Bondholders of the Lehman parent will get less: about 21.1 cents on the dollar.
So "Based on priority you will have to get the full face before a cent from LEHPQ" means: CT must be paid in full before prefferds sees 1 penny, right?
If that is true, and APR applies, then we should be able to apply it here. So if we do apply it here, then seniors must be paid in full before CTs sees a penny.
Wow, what a concept....
imo
Starnes Member Profile Starnes
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Thursday, February 09, 2012 10:24:53 PM
Re: littledevils90210 post# 7239
Post # of 7341
My 2 cents: A 20% recovery on the CTs for you means $1,500,000..Full face is $7,500,000.. Based on priority you will have to get the full face before a cent from LEHPQ..
Would you be able to make it on 7.5 million? If not then would you buy more of the CTs or other?? Your decision.......
Simplistic but...........
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=71937032
Gee, so do you understand APR yet? You state CTs can get a divy without higher tiers creditors get their principal? LOL Then you state that equity cannot get paid a penny without CTs getting paid in full. So which is it?
APR or NOT APR.
I guess if you own CTs, you make up the rules to suit what you hold right? Ha ha haha I get how you operate. After you sell your CT, are you gonna buy LEHPQ (preffereds) and then say, "ya, seniors and CTs do NOT have to get paid in full because I own LEHPQ and we are going to get LAMCO!" LOL
Your own post:
Starnes Member Profile Starnes
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Thursday, February 09, 2012 10:24:53 PM
Re: littledevils90210 post# 7239
Post # of 7341
My 2 cents: A 20% recovery on the CTs for you means $1,500,000..Full face is $7,500,000.. Based on priority you will have to get the full face before a cent from LEHPQ..
Would you be able to make it on 7.5 million? If not then would you buy more of the CTs or other?? Your decision.......
Simplistic but...........
You are lost..The "Absolute Priority Rule" is the rule that you always refer to..That has been proven to be a failed experiment...You have on three occasions given false and misleading statements, simply because you are deceitful or uninformed....Here is a bit of education regarding the priority rules...Not for you, but others:http://www.bernsteinlaw.com/publications/bankdict.htm
The Plan has already been confirmed. You don't even understand the words: cram-down. It comes BEFORE the plan is confirmed. ROLMAO Try to read your own link and try to comprehend them before you post and make a (fill in the blank) out of yourself.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204770404577082451546013514.html
Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc.'s $65 billion creditor-payment plan was confirmed . . .
Cram-down laws which you seem to be unfamiliar with will pave the way for all the classes in this case...The POR is yet undefined..Here is a good explanation. You should try reading some newer materials,..
http://www.bankruptcy-chapter-11.com/chapter-11-bankruptcy-cram-down.html
imo...
Yes, however, creditors would have to negotiate terms, conditions, re-age, etc. and it would be spelled out in the POR. In Lehman's case, it is not happening.
imo
Read the post he responded to:
No... principal and interest due to seniors are to be paid in full, regardless of any principal and interest due on subordinates and equity.
Any divy distributed to subordinates will vigorously objected by ALLL creditors, besides, the debtor has to petition the court and have a divy approved by the court. Debtors just can't pay divies without court approval. Guess what, not gonna happen. Debtors will NEVER petition the court to pay divies to subordinates when seniors are deficit in principal. (exception to REITs)
Prospectus is trumped by BK law, therefore, no divies beyond the 18 months until eternity or seniors paid in full, principal and interest.
imo
Yes, eom.
Basically, it is any distribution to that Class/SubClass, will be taken away and redistributed to another Class which is likely more senior ... hence, that is why I say seniors are paid in full first. I have not read what 6.4 says since I am not really near a computer.
That is why seniors keep subordinated debt intact, to take away their distributions and obtain more recovery than any other non-sub claim (and NOLs).
imo
No, I own CUSIP 5249087M6, which I believe is the same one below. Although I am not a CT owner, I am a direct owner of the bond itself BNYM.
1.25 Class 10B Subordinated Notes means, collectively, (a) the 6.375% Subordinated
Deferrable Interest Debentures due 2052, issued pursuant to the Fourth Supplemental Indenture,
dated as of March 17, 2003, between LBHI and JPMorgan Chase Bank, as trustee; (b) the
6.375% Subordinated Deferrable Interest Debentures due October 2052, issued pursuant to the
Fifth Supplemental Indenture, dated as of October 31, 2003, between LBHI and JPMorgan Chase
Bank, as trustee; (c) the 6.00% Subordinated Deferrable Interest Debentures due 2053, issued pursuant to the Sixth Supplemental Indenture, dated as of April 22, 2004, between LBHI and
JPMorgan Chase Bank, as trustee; (d) the 6.24% Subordinated Deferrable Interest Debentures
due 2054, issued pursuant to the Seventh Supplemental Indenture, dated as of January 18, 2005,
between LBHI and JPMorgan Chase Bank, as trustee; (e) the 5.75% Subordinated Notes due
2017, issued pursuant to the Ninth Supplemental Indenture, dated as of October 24, 2006,
between LBHI and JPMorgan Chase Bank, as trustee; (f) the Fixed and Floating Rate
Subordinated Notes Due 2032, issued pursuant to the Tenth Supplemental Indenture, dated as of
May 1, 2007, between LBHI and JPMorgan Chase Bank, as trustee; (g) the 6.50% Subordinated
Notes Due 2017, issued pursuant to the Thirteenth Supplemental Indenture, dated as of July 19,
2007, between LBHI and The Bank of New York, as trustee; (h) the 6.875% Subordinated Notes
Due 2037, issued pursuant to the Fourteenth Supplemental Indenture, dated as of July 19, 2007,
between LBHI and The Bank of New York, as trustee; (i) the 6.75% Subordinated Notes Due
2017, issued pursuant to the Fifteenth Supplemental Indenture, dated as of December 21, 2007,
between LBHI and The Bank of New York, as trustee; and (j) the 7.50% Subordinated Notes
Due 2038, issued pursuant to the Sixteenth Supplemental Indenture, dated as of May 9, 2008,
between LBHI and The Bank of New York, as trustee.
I never said that CTs would be lumped in with preferreds and commons.
Walrath said it was not a punishment to use FJR. You cannot punish someone for an unproven allegation.
imo
The point is ...
The point is not that the CTs are debt -- I have always known that -- it's just whether the CTs will be lumped in the big share pot. That will be the confirmation. Some have said -- and you may have been one of them -- that they could and would be lumped in with the commons and preferreds. I am simply saying that if they are not, then that will confirm recognition of the CTs as a debt instrument, and then the ball begins rolling in favor of the CTs.
As for the FJR, it was the IT claims that caused Walrat to even consider colorable claims. You should get your facts straight. Go ask the better DDers on the WAMU boards.
Chessman
They entire conversation was about interest on CTs can be paid while seniors didnt have to be paid in full. You entered the conversation late.
BTW, you cant account (pay) for interest on CTs unless it (CT principal) was paid in full as well.
imo
ZXC is talking about paying interest on CTs, while seniors are not paid in full.
That said, you cannot pay a junior security while a senior security is still in deficit of principal. Subordination.
imo
If you understand how CTs are structured, you would not need confirmation that it is debt. It IS debt, period.
As for WAHUQ, Walrath stated FJR was not a punishment for IT. Walrath stated there were colorable claims, BUT did NOT state there was IT involved, ONLY a POSSIBLE claim. Get your facts straight.
I like to be realistic, not day dream.
imo
No, you can't pay any interest if the principal is not paid in full.
imo
CTs are considered debt, period. There is no question about it.
BTW, WAHUQ units were not smacked down because IT, it was because of FJR/Subordination and that is the reason why they were smacked down and are at their current price point.
Just because someone has a different view does not make them "rain[ing] on [their] parade". May be they do not like kool aid or being realistic.
imo
The turning point for the CTs will be ...
I have been here for months, both observing and picking up the various flavors of CT shares along the way, patiently waiting (painfully patient, you might say) for the critical turning point for these special securities. That turning point? The Effective Date. We need to get to that point to find out if there will truly be any reasonable and decent value to the CTs.
I have observed all the great DD, and the attempts to rain on the parade by naysayers (you know who you are), and my conclusion is that we can speculate all we want about dividends and deadlines and assets and such, but we don't stand a chance unless the CTs are ruled/considered debt. The Effective Date, from my understanding, will be that time when our brothers and sisters in preferred and commons will be delegated to the big share of pie in the sky that may somehow become something real and edible if Lehman can recover many billions of assets down the road. In the meantime ...
If the CT shares do not get tossed into that LAMCO pot, I believe we will see some amazing things happen. Mind you, if the CTs get paid off at 20%, this will be a life changer(especially for me), and I will be very happy about it, as will many others. However, if they do not get the payoff, but, instead, simply are left alive with the high probability of dividend recovery and payout, share price will likely escalate beyond 50%. There will be long-term investors looking for appreciation and dividends, and the CTs will be quite attractive.
These sort of remind me of the WAHUQ shares, which the hedgies bought for pennies back when WAMU was unrightfully seized. Those WAHUQ shares later rose into the $30 range for a while, until the hedgies got spanked by the Court for IT. Lehman CTs are capped at $25, but that is more than enough, considering the fact that you can buy them now for an average of .10 or less.
So, CT investors and pundits, let's start working on that Effective Date. Let's investigate and see if we can pin it down, when it is due to happen, or when it is supposed to happen. That's all I care about now. Hey, it's cool to dream and plan for dividends, but it's like worrying about taxes before making money. Make the money first! Those dividends will be the talk after we confirm the CT status. Lehman CTs must first rise up above the LAMCO melting pot, and then we can all do the happy dance. And I don't dance much at all, but I really want to do the happy dance!
Chessman
POR is produced from BK law.
imo
after the effective date the POR is in place... CT's will continue to trade and the original terms and conditions of the CT's will be in force.. thats what i'm interpreting ...
The POR trumps BK law as long as the parties are in full agreement... again my interpretation (and experience on this one)...
Preserve NOLs and enforce subordination for the benefit of senior creditors.
imo
No... principal and interest due to seniors are to be paid in full, regardless of any principal and interest due on subordinates and equity.
Any divy distributed to subordinates will vigorously objected by ALLL creditors, besides, the debtor has to petition the court and have a divy approved by the court. Debtors just can't pay divies without court approval. Guess what, not gonna happen. Debtors will NEVER petition the court to pay divies to subordinates when seniors are deficit in principal. (exception to REITs)
Prospectus is trumped by BK law, therefore, no divies beyond the 18 months until eternity or seniors paid in full, principal and interest.
imo
I am 100% sure no divy, until all seniors are paid in full. Same with all Bankruptcies, with the exception of divies connected to REITs for tax status purposes.
Think about it... How can someone get a divy if someone above you did not even get their principal? You are taking that person's principal and calling it a divy distributed to you, a subordinate.
Hey, all I am is realistic, that is all.
Have a nice weekend. I am outtie.
imo
The question I have is - can they continue to defer the dividend after the effective date and up until the 20th quarter if the CT's keep trading?
Anyone know if dividends must be reinstated if, or when, they drop the Q?
No, means no change for commons and prefferds get more distribution. imo/eom
I agree. TPS/REITS have two (2) different TPS Groups. Each Group is made up of a hand full of hedgies, etc.
My thoughts are that they will leverage their position some voting "no" with releases to the plan, and with some of their strategic positions, vote "no" with withOUT releases thereby preserving their potential full equity claim amount in the billions, which indirectly allows other Class 19 members more new shares distribution per old shares, i.e. more than 17.xx.
In addition to the 'possible" change in the 70/30 split, of course.
Here are just a few:
(i) Black Horse Capital LP and Black Horse Capital Master Fund Ltd (together,
“Black Horse”):
c/o Black Horse Capital Advisors LLC
338 S. Sharon Amity Rd, #202
Charlotte, NC 28211
(ii) Greywolf Capital Partners II LP, Greywolf Capital Overseas Master Fund,
Greywolf Opportunities Fund II LP, Greywolf Structured Products Master Fund,
Ltd. and Greywolf Capital Overseas Fund II (together, “Greywolf”):
c/o Greywolf Capital Management LP
4 Manhattanville Road, Suite 201
Purchase, NY 10577
(iii) Pine Edge Value Investors Ltd., Pine River Convertibles Master Fund Ltd. (f/k/a
Nisswa Convertibles Master Fund Ltd.), Pine River Fixed Income Master Fund
Ltd. (f/k/a Nisswa Fixed Income Master Fund Ltd.) and Pine River Master Fund
Ltd. (f/k/a Nisswa Master Fund Ltd.), LMA SPC for and on behalf of the MAP 89
Segregated Portfolio (together, “Pine River”):
c/o Pine River Capital Management L.P.
601 Carlson Parkway, Suite 330
Minnetonka, MN 55305
(iv) Scoggin Worldwide Fund Ltd., Scoggin Capital Management LP II and Scoggin
International Fund Ltd. (together, “Scoggin”):
c/o Scoggin Capital Management
660 Madison Avenue
New York, NY 10065
(v) Visium Global Master Fund, Ltd. and Visium Catalyst Credit Master Fund, Ltd.
(together, “Visium”):
c/o Visium Asset Management, LP
950 Third Avenue, 29th Floor
New York, NY 10022
(vi) VR Global Partners, L.P. (“VR Global”):
c/o VR Capital Group
Aurora Business Park
77 Sadovnicheskaya Nab.
Moscow 115035, Russia
The number right now is 17.7333 newco shares per P. I strongly doubt that it will be less than that, but there several factors that could make it more than that. Most likely, not everyone submits their releases in time. My guess is that that alone bumps us to maybe 19.
Some responded "nobody knows". True, but there is a reasonable range that one can establish if they have a calculator and a decent understanding of the potential variables. Also, the judge could increase the % of newco shares going to class 19.
Right now, my range is 17.7333 as a bottom and 25 as a top (and the top is really an extreme). Realistically, I think 18.5-19.5 will be the number.