go-ks re: Broadcom bundling Wave

I know you are not necessarily implying that Broadcom bundling Wave is an issue, but if Dell is planning on using Broadcom's gigabit ethernet TPM solution in their notebooks for example, I doubt Wave would bundle with Broadcom, because Wave appears to already have an arrangement with Dell, an arrangement where they will make far more per seat than they would if they bundle with the TPM vendor.

There may be cases where Wave would want to bundle with Broadcom, but it became pretty clear from the Wave/Envoy SEC filing that when ETS gets implemented through a major PC OEM, that Wave is better off to deal directly with the OEM than the TPM vendor. Actually it will be interesting exactly what STMicro bundles and what Wave receives, when Dell will be selling ETS at $20 a pop.

Thanks Doma. Dell TPMs are coming! e/

Doma re: Dell Latitude D610...great find!

This must be an early TPM notebook currently available in Japan (or elsewhere) only but not yet in the USA? Dell website does not yet list a D610, but I doubt it will be too long before we see TPM machines here:

http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/compare.aspx/latit?c=us&cs=555&l=en&s=biz

Note that three of the Latitude models come with integrated smart card readers, while the other two offer it as a peripheral option. The Mobile Work Station notebook also comes with an intergrated SCR.

awk, I printed your summary! Great stuff! e/

re-edit: barge...edited w/ correct link

Assuming your assertion is correct(and yes! I believe it is) what do you think would motivate OEMs to pre-load TVTonic on PCs offering Media Center PCs?

Because I think techie consumer users aside, the average consumer user will need to have TvTonic already installed so that they don't have to discover itself for themselves on Onlne Spotlight and then take the trouble to download it. I am not saying it's not important that TvTonic is certified for use by Microsoft on Media Center Edition, and that there's a live button in Online Spotlight to access it, it's certainly the siginificant and necessary first step, but IMO having it deemed necessary by the PC OEM that in order for the consumer to access trusted video content they will need TvTonic as the best technology and therefore the major PC OEM will pre-install it as Niveus has, will be the next big step.

I just called Dell and not surprisingly they do not yet offer a true home entertainment PC ala Niveus or HP. Dell is known for waiting for technologies to gel and get market momentum (like flat panel home TVs for example which Dell now offers) before offering them. Currently the Dimension 8400 is the most sophisticated MCE-enabled system they offer. It's able to wirelessly access televisions, so that you can download from the internet and playback in the living room. But it's still just the traditional "desktop tower". You and I both know that Dell will eventually be in the living room.


http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=eep&cs=6099&....

Finallythere...thanks for the link...

It's leading to major PC OEMs offering Media Center PCs pre-loaded with TVTonic!

Current WAVX market:

My broker is Interactive Brokers.

Currently IB's SMART ROUTING is showing:

bid 1.14 (477) x ask 1.15 (207)

breakdown:

ISLAND bid 100 x ask 51
BRUT bid 317 x ask 27
ARCA bid 34 x ask 24
SUPER SOES bid 26 x ask 105

TOTAL bid 477 x ask 207

I am not saying that my broker shows the total market for WAVX, but I think it's pretty close. BRUT is I believe the major MM for WAVX. Many brokers, including mine (IB), will rout non-marketable orders to Island where they await execution or re-routing.

Digital Dancer re: slow uptake

The answer is simple...low profile of the TPM deployment.

IBM to date has been the only volume deployer of TPMs and while all of Wave's products work on the IBM platform, IBM has their own TPM ownership activation platform. Apparently the activation rates (users taking ownership of the TPM) have been low due to lack of educating of the user by IBM and their resellers...of course activation rates will improve as awareness of the technology increases. So, low activation rates of IBM TPM-enabled machines (IBM has been the only real deployment to date) have contributed to the low profile of the platform.

With Dell getting involved, we will see a dramatic uptake on the volume, and I think Dell will be agressive in selling the activation software (it will be Wave's) to buyers...ie. they will sell TPM PCs to government and enterprise buyers who know what they are buying and I expect activation rates among Dell government and enterprise buyers to be high. IMO the consumer market will follow, and consumer TPM PCs I predict will have a basic activation package bundled, prompting users to activate.

And, once Dell comes out, HP will follow. Many here believe that Dell and HP have been waiting for TPM v1.2 in order to rollout in volume. Dell appears poised for a meaningful launch slightly ahead of v1.2, while who knows about HP?

T123 re: TvTonic "embedded"...

I believe that so far Niveus is the only PC that actually pre-loads TvTonic.

Microsoft's Media Center Edition 2005 will merely provide a link to download TvTonic...therefore it's only that link that is embedded in MCE, not the TvTonic software itself. It's up to the PC user to download TvTonic, unless their PC (like Niveus) comes with TvTonic pre-installed.

No, I don't know what Niveus pays Wavexpress per machine, or if Microsoft pays something for the link.

e-mail response from Wavexpress:

Inquiry:

Does today's Wavexpress announcement mean that if an
MCE 2005 user selects the Online Spotlight selection
(from the MCE 2005 main navigation screen) that the
user will find an embedded link to download TvTonic?

Also, does Wavexpress have a presence at CES?

TIA
------------------------------------------

Response:

Yes. We are now part of online spotlight though the link will not go live for a couple more weeks.

We do not have our own booth at CES, however, we are present on all the Niveus machines placed throughout the show. Niveus has won several CES innovation awards and has machines in Microsoft's and Intel's booths as well as their own pod in the innovations area.

wavxmaster

Best wishes to your nephew and your family.

Regards,

Ramsey2

eamonnshute, great effort. Thanks! e/

Happy 2005 everybody...see ya in Vegas! e/

kantbleveit

I can see Wave eventually becoming a company with far more employees than they have now. They will need more of all kinds of staffing including that to man their user support call centers. When Wave needs to hire more user support staff, and I believe that day is approaching, I am sure they will be all over it.

(edit) kantblevit

Yes, you are right about Wave needing to hire staff and build infrastructure to handle user support. I am sure Wave has come way too far with this to not be planning as necessary to handle that.

Regards,

R2

P.S. Actually this issue has not been discussed here much that I am aware of. I mentioned a long time ago that I can look to a day when Wave will need to expand their physical facilities...I believe that day is coming.

kantblevit

The Wave stuff works, otehrwise a blue chip firm like STMicro would not bundle it, and Dell would not brand it. It works...don't worry about that...otherwise Wave would not have the leadership position in the TCG and in this space in general, that they do. The above does not mention Intel...Wave has shipped with Intel boards and for awhile now. If Wave did not work, Intel would not ship it...from day one.

(edit) go-ks re: Dell and Envoy

I am not sure I understand your point.

I don't have an intimate understanding of Dell's sales model except it's common knowledge that they employ a "direct sales model" meaning that resellers are the exception not the rule. It's my assunption therefore that most enterprise sales by Dell are handled by Dell sales staff and not resellers. Envoy is presumably one notable exception and I think Envoy is well established in selling Dell PCs to the government. So, the Wave 8K filing suggests that Envoy is lining up sales of Dell trusted PCs in their government channels...Dell wants Wave's TPM software to be branded Dell, hence the change to the Wave/Envoy terms.

It's a pretty safe assumption that if Dell is lining up Wave's software to power their TPM platform and that they will eventually TPM enable all their PCs, as this is the rumor (ie. TPMs will become pretty much ubiquitous by 2006). Recognizing Dell's direct sales model I conclude that the majority of Dell's sales of TPM PCs will be by Dell directly (ie. no reseller)...hence when it comes to Dell "reselling" Wave software, Dell will deal with directly with Wave for those PC sales that do not involve a Dell reseller (Envoy for example).

(edit) Weby and Bingoman

For me the hardest area to understand where money will be made from TC on the consumer side is trusted data "transactions" or perhaps better thought of as "communications" that don't involve purchases...things like e-mail or VPNs. I predict that once TPMs are standard for consumer PCs that they will come with a standard software package that will be pre-loaded onto the machine, which will prompt the user to take ownership of the TPM and give them some very basic functionality. I believe this is roughly analagous to basic anti-virus software that comes standard today, and now we are seeing that included in Windows. I think Dell for example will pre-load a basic consumer platform for consumers for which the software provider (ie. possibly Wave) will receive a bundling fee. It could then be up to the user to upgrade to get more features...VPN-capable or whatever. But, I would think that the consumer doing trusted purchasing on the internet, including on the mobile platforms, would be a high volume business, and that's where it's easier to see Wave's micro transaction fees being built into the price of what's being purchased.

Enterprise (government and private) is a no-brainer...they will pay and keep paying for trusted communications and networking. The consumer will always do trusted commerce in the digital world but what % will pay upgrades and maintenance costs for trusted communications and trusted networking will be interesting to see.

D_D_D...Steve, a Merry Christmas to you! e/

Merry Christmas everybody!

Happy Holidays and best wishes for 2005.... well, see you all in Vegas!

(edit) go-ks re: Dell and Envoy

Envoy had/has an agreement with Wave to distribute ETS, and as I read the situation the agreement had to be amended to include the Dell v1.0, the Dell version of ETS that apparently Wave has agreed to customize for Dell. Apparently the fact that Envoy will, I speculate, in some cases be the reseller of Dell v1.0, means the change to the Envoy agreement is material and had to be filed. As I said, I speculate that in some cases Envoy will be the reseller of Dell v1.0 to Dell...I am presuming that in other instances Envoy will not be a third party reseller between Wave and Dell. If Wave is actually building a customized version of ETS for Dell, then that would mean for sure that Wave and Dell have an agreement, an unannounced agreement. Personally I expect a lot from a Dell/Wave relationship...Dell needs the Wave platform to activate their TPM-enabled products and I can see Dell "reselling" Wave products as a source of revenue to help drive their TC deployment. To me, that Dell and Wave together will make money deploying Wave products and services is a perfect scenario.

Doma, that sounds right re: the TSS tweak for Apple. e/

go-ks, great post, need more time to digest...gotta run out the door for last minute errands. Thanks.

Doma, your TSS tweaking Apple hypothesis would make a good Wave e-mail inquiry!

An TCG-based inquiry to Apple might fly as well.

Doma re: volume of keys...exactly! e/

Doma P.S. re: the server side

In fact Wave's server dimension has probably been a main Dell/Envoy selling point from day one. ETS's client side is unmatched, but I am certain the server products are a key selling point.

barge/awk/racheleise/go-ks/micro59/others....

Please e-mail your Apple thoughts to Wave!

Edit: Doma re: Dell reselling other Wave products

It's a safe bet Dell/Envoy and Wave are looking to provide government (and private) enterprise with Wave server-based products like KTM and ACM. I think this is a dimension IBM (and HP) are not able to provide without Wave.

It's exciting to ponder how far in front of where we are now that Dell and Wave are now planning...like ACM when 1.2 TPMs are in full swing to cite one example. Dell is going to make revenue reselling Wave products!

buffetguy, I agree it will start with the government...

In this innaugaural stage of TCG deployment, functionality while limited is meaningful to enterprise...government enterprise and private enterprise, and both will IMO eventually pay the necessary fee/seat to activate, with the government sector leading the way and setting the example for the private sector. I believe that activation rates by government enterprise that buy Dell PCs will initially be quite high, and once the government decides to adopt TPMs it will become standard with all departments buying TPM PCs, and all activating eventually. It makes no sense for them to buy Dell PCs without paying for the software that goes along with it...I predict Dell (and Envoy) will be a good purveyor of this to the government as they both will take a reseller's cut.

IBM on the other hand has apparently delivered TPM-enabled ThinkPads to the government, but has not done enough to educate the government about activating them...it's the IBM software that cost IBM to develop and I think they tacked a good premium onto the price of the PC to cover the cost of the platform. Why IBM has apparently not pushed for the government customers to activate, I am not sure. We do know however that the IBM software is limited compared to what Wave offers...maybe the absence of an IBM trust server side is part of the problem.

I think the $20/seat to activate is a reasonable cost and my hunch is that Envoy is doing a good job of selling the technology in their Dell government channels.

awk (edit):

Trusted Computing is a difficult to understand subject. It is difficult to understand not only for us converging on this board but apparently also for many if not most IT professionals, and yes, for many future adopters.

Trusted Computing is a groundbreaking new technology and "system" and because of that it is easy to get lost in a sea of seemingly related and/or unrelated "news".

The main reason for this "difficulty to understand" is, in my opinion, that the available information is very heterogeneously dispersed across many necessary building blocks of the space; A lot of work is needed by many different players to bring this space to bloom.

EXACTLY!

Whereas it's taken a long time for the technology to gain traction (ie. the major TCG players actually deploying the hardware) this lack of understanding by the public (but intimate understanding by Wave) has helped engender and preserve Wave's big first mover advantage...a sort of "auto-stealth" that I believe will are now seeing has worked to Wave's advantage.

doma...hope so! e/

awk...that would be truly amazing...not that I think your assumption is far-fetched...not at all!

We are truly at the decisive stage of the game today. I fully expect NGSCB to leverage Wave's Managed Trust infrastructure and expect news to that effect within 6 months.

Thanks goinup...Happy 2005! e/

re-edit: Wildman262 re: government buying Dell trusted PCs

I agree that once enterprise, government and private, decide to commit to spending for the added security that trusted PCs provide, their spending will be planned and reflected in the fee per seat for the software to activate the platform.

Dell I think will lead the way by selling the best TC products that are available, namely the Wave portfolio. I expect Dell to track every single governement procurement of Dell trusted PCs and make sure their sales force gets each seat activated. They should know where every single one of them goes and since they will take a cut for every Wave-enabled PC there will be an incentive for Dell to follow through and make sure all procurements buy the software. And Envoy is evidently participating in the sales cycle as well, educating government procurements to activate...for each procurement that buys the Dell v1.0 (ETS) Envoy takes their cut.

dig space re: buyers' committment to TC

What you are really saying is that in the beginning (2005...we'll not count the current IBM deployment) when government agencies and private enterprise firms buy blocks of trusted PCs that they will do so without making the $20/seat committment to the new security paradigm that the platform offers.

It's a question of buyers committing the additional $20/seat, which adds up to quite a substantial additional investment actually. If Dell sales, and their occasional reseller like Envoy, sell the buyers on the technology (the software to activate the TPM) they'll buy it, and obviously if they buy the $20/seat software they'll activate. And activating means they can then upgrade to the server services and other upgrades.

kevin...good point

My sense is that Envoy (and Wave) are doing a much better job than IBM at educating the government about TPMs. I think government IT managers are catching on and private enterprise also.

Snackman

LD and ds are not considering the business incentive factor for Dell. Dell can sell Wave products and this initial Dell v 1.0 ETS is just the beginning. There will be ETS upgrades on the client side alone not to mention the server side...KTM, ACM and beyond.

IBM/Lenovo and HP will have to sell TC products also just to keep up with Dell!

dig space re: security paradigm

Are your VESA/Weitek examples fair comparisons to the security paradigm?

Actually by implying that the activation rates will skyrocket in 2006/2007 you are validating the technology against your VESA/Weitek cases.

What makes you think Dell won't sell more activations in 2005?

And what makes you think that by 2006/2007 Wave would not have defended it's first mover advantage by extending their offerings on the server side for example or by implementing their TAN IP as another example?

Doma/dig space

I like Dell's chances of getting a high activation rate on Dell TPM PCs in 2005. Why? Because Dell is largely their own reseller and it will merely take Dell educating their own sales apparatus on the meaning of the TPM platform, and I believe you will then see a high percentage of Dell enterprise customers KNOWING what they are buying and paying the $20/seat to acivate the platform. I am expecting the Envoy/Dell deployment in the government to have an extremely high activation percentage.

I think we have seen a low activation on IBM ThinkPads due to a lack of educating by IBM to their resellers and their own IBM staff. IBM has been good about committing to the hardware but weak on educating the buyer/user.

And don't forget that Dell has an incentive in getting TPM buyers to buy the Wave software and activate...it's called revenues. Obviously Dell will receive a cut for each and every Wave product sold...in effect they have become a Wave reseller. Is IBM reselling any TC product upgrades?

edit: rachelelise

I would say a PC that has both a TPM platform and an additional secure execution platform (Embassy smart card reader) utilizing an Embassy TAN.

Clearly the military has chosen the Wave TAN prototype ahead of LT(SEM)/NGSCB (or an ARM design) being available. If the later hardware version subsumes Embassy, I think we can expect Wave TAN IP, Embassy firmware or whatever to be involved in the final architecture.

It's exciting to see the military pushing for secure execution!