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What amazes me is that after almost 2 years, we still have NO idea what is happening in this case.
Isn't there some way we can ask the judge to clarify what happened at the meeting today?
Can Ilene, or anyone else in court today, say what kind of expressions various lawyers had leaving court today?
RDG -- You need to be a press secretary for a high government official!!!
PickStocks -- If we get a settlement I don't think where the money came from is an issue. Whether or not we get shares or cash, a settlement means one of two things:
1. A>L
2. Susman had some seriously incriminating documents
If it's #1, then it is going to have to be shown somewhere in the POR/DS. If it's #2, I would think that all parties can come up with something saying the length of this case, the expense of it and etc, etc, etc (whatever Susman has) make us believe that it is better to settle now, than to carry this on for who knows how long. THJMW can ask if all parties are in agreement. If they are, then she will approve and everything will be sealed. Don't know if that's how judges can get approvals, but short of proving A>L, then something has to be hidden from ever coming out. IMO of course
Phins -- I'm clueless on this one. I believe it to be one of two possible theories:
1. Susman had some kind of document that JPM didn't want to be made public, so they will now talk about what it will cost to keep that document (and possibly others) from seeing the light of day.
2. Rosen was able to convince the judge that by the 20th Susman will have every document that Rosen posesses. (My problem with this is that I'm sure there are lots of other documents Rosen is hiding). Susman figures, "What the heck. We'll talk Monday. If you pi** us off, there will be so many motions that your head will spin."
No settlement will come from this otpion at this time, but Rosen thinks it can buy him enough time to come up with yet another Plan
DanBB -- Did you include all the wonderful music that took the place of the hearing? :]
Thanks again for your contributions to this board!
Biz -- I thought the same thing with the last delay, then Rosen submits another amended POR that leaves us out.
Either Susman has something or the judge is afraid to appoint an examiner. It will be real interesting to see if Rosen comes back with another POS POR/DS prior to 20th.
could be a resolution of case or just a resolution of one specific motion.
I would assume that if this is another POR/DS, Susman will quickly turn to the page where it says equity is getting nothing. If that page has some numbers, both sides will agree to reschedule hearing. If it still says what first 5 amended versions say, then he will either just say nothing, let's proceed your honor, or he will kick Rosen's *ss.
Better not be another mulligan to continue discussions.
My predictions:
1. Tomorrow, Rosen says, "We will be glad to let you have depositions as soon as we are finished with our questioning of EC"
2. Two weeks from now, Rosen says ,"Your honor, we have stated in this courtroom repeatedly that we would be glad to let the EC have depositions, but their scope is too wide"
3. One month from now, Rosen says, "Your honor, we have been begging the EC to take depositions of the JPMC folks, but we feel the scope is still to broad. They actually want to ask us questions and expect honest answers"
4. Two months from now, Rosen says, Mr. Susman, have you figured out a way to take depositions without asking any questions?" How can it be our fault? We've had our people eager to tell you everything you want to know, you just can't ask them anything. You are being unreasonable here, Mr. Susman.
5. 3 years from now -- Your honor we would be glad to have Mr. Dimon speak at a deposition, but it appears that the WMI estate is out of money. By the way, do you happen to sign the order for us to be paid for the last month? For some reason we aren't making as much this month. It appears that this amount is exactly what WMI happens to have left in the estate. We'll just take that and be on our way.
Chiron (and others) I didn't see any significant changes in the latest POS POR/DS. Did anyone else? I thought THJMW said if there were not significant changes, she would not even discuss it at the next hearing.
My thought exactly, but why give Rosen any opportunity without getting something back? IMO, he may try to find yet another way, no matter how outlandish to break up the EC. Why provide him with even the smallest chance to misconstrue any statement? Also, I didn't see anywhere where there was a defined scope for questioning, yet Weil, FDIC, etc keep whining about the EC being too broad, so they won't answer.
Obviously Susman knows more than I do, but as a logical thinker, I don't want to give Rosen ANYTHING.
UZ -- Have any of these depositions been objected to by Susman? If not, why is he letting them have depositions regardless of subject when they keep stonewalling over any kind of information Susman is looking for?
Whether or not Gluckstein's submittal is BS to us is irrelevant. It is who THJMW believesand considers o be closer to the range of activity she will allow for an examiner. They have definitely put up smokescreen after smokescreen. Does THJMW see through them, or if she looks hard enough can she find enough to keep stalling this thing?
Pandy -- Things aren't going our way. If they were, there would be an examiner and Rosen would be gone from this case, as would the BOD.
It has been a long long time in coming, but many of those here considered longs believe the tide is turning. Some have done great amounts of DD. After March 12, no one wants to get burned again. Longs are holding. Others are sitting and waiting. Still others continue to flip.
Even if we get an examiner on the 8th, it will be appealed. I personally am not sure if examiner will work while motion is under appeal or not. Short of an offer to keep Dimon, Bair and others out of jail, most of us (and those with money on the sidelines) expect this to drag on. Big players can make money on other stocks and get into this later while the longs here have our money tied up not wanting to miss the potential mind-boggling payout
Personally, I am in at about an average of .18, so I'm just about even. I could have flipped for substantial gains, or been stopped out for a huge loss. I hold because I am waiting for justice.
Looks like the EC's latest document contains quite a bit of work to give THJMW suggestions as to the scope of an examiner. Does anyone know what that scope is based on? SImply the judge or input for trustee, etc?
Just got my 5th amended POS POR/DS via Fed Ex Overnight Saturday Delivery!!!
Biz (and others) In your opinion, do you see an effect of Susman putting together his own POR/DS? If Solomon has numbers, can Weil, even object without actually coming up with documents to prove that Solomon's numbers aren't accurate? I would think that at this point, the best thing to do would put them on the defensive. Since Rosen's POR still doesn't have any numbers, can both be voted on, or possibly only one approved for vote by THJMW?
Climber -- I really hope THJMW doesn't allow any more delays. IMO, the lines have been drawn in the sand. First off, Susman better be in court on the 8th. I appreciate him wanting to save the estate money, but he needs to be there to smack Rosen upside the head. If Rosen even says that they still intend to hand over documents, THJMW better say "hand them over to the examiner. He'll be at your offices soon. And oh, by the way, next time I have to deal with you, it will be in contempt"
I think he is purely in defense mode now, trying to appease his master JPM. If he loses against a court order, what can he do? But if he offered a settlement without the court order, JPM would not be happy. My question is, how in the heck can Weil expect not to have someone question all the money they have milked from the estate? Does anyone know of a precedent where all legal fees were demanded to be returned because of such an obvious conflict of interest/fraud?
Hopefully the mere fact that Weil, etc has files another DS/POR should tell THJMW that they are more interested in screwing equity than resolving the matter fairly. I sure hope she asks them about all the information they handed over and as soon as Rosen opens his mouth, she says "zip it! Examiner granted!"
According to Rosen( in the past, apparently not now!), they are representing us, so we can we speak on behalf of Weil, etc and request that Rosen be removed from the case?
byrddog -- I'm sure Rosen will be filing some crap over the weekend, something that we will probably have to reject by 12 noon on Tuesday.
Fish -- Looks like according to that document - EC is getting a group of documents no other objecting parties are receiving. That in itself will lead to a number of objections, I'm sure. Also, from those descriptions, it looks like a game of back and forth can be played for quite some time to determine the usefulness of certain documents and the lack of others.
Good point chaarles! I'm just dreading having to send another objection. Having to find the differences in each version is quite time consuming!
Rosen has put out 4 POS PORs now. None of them will get voted on until he actually produces some kind of numbers to show assets. Not sure which will take longer -- For Rosen to come up with numbers, or judge to rule for examiner. If he shows numbers that are anything close to what most of us here believe, then there is no way equity can be left out. If he can actually produce numbers "proving" assets < liabilities, it's over for us anyway.
Those of us holding common shares have the actions of THJMW as our main concern. She has quite a few important rulings due soon. Those are what will ultimately drive the outcome. Today's pps is irrelevant.
Fish -- Is there any way they could have switched all the subsidiaries to WMB, knowing the seizure was coming?
Fish -- SO does it mean we're screwed as far as valuation of assets, or does it not matter, as long we can come up with total value, regardless of who owned what?
Jest -- So about all this chat about Thykkuttathil, is it safe to say we've learned 2 things:
1. Get a good lawyer when you sue someone (or the United States itself)
2. We still need to know value of all assets seized. Whether or not it was for public use can be debated later.
Other than that, nothing has changed as far as we're concerned, IMO.
Fish -- Don't know if this helps any, but it looks like at least some were under WMI:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUS241578+11-Sep-2008+BW20080911
igotcents -- I really would hope we get more than nothing, but your comment got me thinking. Susman (what we have seen of him thus far) really appears to be a fantastic attorney. Somehow I can almost see this being a huge win for him if we get anything (nothing close to what we deserve). His firm can update their website with a huge victory if commons end up with .50 cents a share, since he was fighting basically insurmountable odds. All the quietness concerns me greatly. Hopefully I'm just being paranoid. regardless, I must have enough faith in Susman to let my now over 60,000 shares ride on him.
UZ -- Can't wait for the May and June reports to see how much it cost to send us all the crap in the mail and to file oour rejections!
I'm not sure what scares me more about the Thykkuttathil case:
1. That they actually lost the case and now it is headed to the US Supreme Court on Appeal. Can't find document with ruling, but this whole case was basically ruled on faulty logic with one case as precedent. The judge basically should have just said "Well, the Pacific (or whatever) case was decided on flawed logic, but what the heck, since I can't take the time to make sense of things, I'll go ahead and rule the same way"
2. That WAMU was seized because FDIC couldn't cover assets only days before TARP. If they knew TARP was coming then they should have waited. If they didn't know that TARP was coming -- that means they thought of TARP overnight with literally no discussion on how it would work and imeediately started handing out billions of dollars.
3. Thay did all this to save JPM. If that was the case, why didn't they seize JPM instead or just wait the few days and use the TARP money? It is becoming more and more evident that this thing was a huge setup to benefit JPM. Some lawyer (Susman) better find the documents to prove it and THJMW better rule for justice or we as well of all of America are screwed. The government should have just seized JPM and ran it like GM until things got better, then restablished it without Dimon in charge.
Any way you look at things, I am more than ever inclined to believe that a great deal more than our investments is riding on the decision in this case. If the FDIC/JPM are found to have done nothing wrong, then we may as well jsut leave the deed to our properties at the door, our cars running with the keys and our checkbooks with a blank check already signed for the government just to come in and take them all "for the greater good".
Man, I was looking forward to this weekend of finally no rain and getting to coach and watch my threee sons play baseball, now I am really worked up again!
Intersting article -- Not sure if it may eventually have some bearing on Dimon.:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37896688/ns/business-us_business/
So what goes on during this slow period in the proceedings? Is THJMW active in anything, like looking over the filings or actually investigating if the billable hours are correct (Should Weil, etc be paid for all their months of "investigation")? Are there meetings with attorneys to see if discussions are still going well -- to prepare her for whatever might happen as a result of the fruit or lack thereof from the discussion? Is she hearing other cases at the same time?
Wonder if Susman, Rosen, THJMW, etc are as bored as we are.
Lawrence -- I agree that WEil, etc are out to protect themselves. I guess they are asking the questions about how best to do that. We are all assuming that if Susman doesn't get what he wants, an examiner will be appointed. Maybe Rosen is not assuming that. Weil is definitely in a corner, but how best get themselves out? Offer small settlement to commons, Susman may get furious and either demand more or demand an examiner. THe question we need answered is do Rosen and his friends need to prove all numbers in a settlement no one objects to, or does THJMW just have to accept it if everyone else does? Offer big settlement, again no numbers. Cut FDIC out and make them pay as part of settlement, then prevent any later prosecutions if possible? Again offer anotehr BS DS/POR getting rid of all objections except for EC, then working to disband the EC again? Can this go to Chapter 7 with no numbers?
never--- I think the EC has the examiner any time they ask for it, so IMO it is hard for Rosen to call for too many more delays. If he says on 30th, here's the room, EC can say they've given us nothing until now, in the past two weeks. If Rosen has given anything of use, that will help EC. IF not, Susman accuses them of stalling again. THJMW can then say an examiner will appointed in two weeks (I assume there is a process for doing that). That gives Rosen two more weeks either way. Get settlement before specific examiner is ready or close up shop and wait for examiner to do his thing. I would have to think THJMW will not allow any more delays unless Susman agrees to it, so we now have to trust him.