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Maybe he bought the shares, maybe he was paid in shares, who knows, who cares. Plenty of people have shares of the companies they work for. If he was insider trading then maybe he'll get fined or whatever. But someone can insider trade who doesn't even work for a company or isn't associated with it in any way, just by having some information. That doesn't in any way make him the head of the whole operation. I don't see even a tiny bit of logic in there.
Again, he is a contractor, if he was thrown in jail tomorrow that would not shut down the company. Hell, might even make the pps go up... And it really isn't obvious what he is accused of, if anything. Not to mention that was a year ago and nothing came of it. And it isn't even in the US.
The bottom line is I'm not saying this is NOTHING, it obviously needs to be dealt with at some point but I'm saying that it's nothing compared to having or not having a product. And honestly, if you really really want to point out what a failure the company is I think there are far far better things to pick on than this AMF thing. The fluff PRs, the delays, the failed meet and greet, no proof of product, so much good material out there... The AMF thing is such a non-issue by comparison.
Lol whenever you put "if" and then follow with some super-hypothetical worst case scenario it generally takes some of the bite out of it. There is a very very long way from what is going on right now, basically the IR contractor being mentioned, not even directly accused, to the company being shut down by the SEC, which at this point is not even involved in any way shape or form. So yes, if the SEC shuts it down that would be really bad but the chances of that happening aren't really any bigger than for any other company out there. They could also get hit by a meteorite, that would be really bad IF it happens.
I did not in any way say it wasn't separate and I did not in any way say it was not going to continue. I said that without a product this is going down even if the AMF does nothing and with a product this is going up even if the AMF thing continues. So it's irrelevant. Maybe it would have been relevant for a blue chip (and even then only assuming the AMF bring forward far more than they have so far) but not for a company like WDRP. Here it's all about the product. And like I said the last PR was great proof of that.
It's so ridiculous to keep talking about this whole AMF thing when the company doesn't even have a proven product yet. It is such a non-issue and so much less important than where they are in the development process. Basically the IR guy's name is mentioned in there (with no direct accusations) and the company is named as being the victim of possible manipulation, not the perpetrator... And the whole thing has been going on for a full year with absolutely no developments of any kind, no actual information revealed, nothing. And it's not even in the US. Worrying about the AMF while having no product is like someone being wheeled into the emergency room worrying about their hair or makeup.
Everyone here knows that if they don't eventually come up with a product, even being the most squeaky clean company in the world isn't going to keep this from reaching 0.0001. And if they do come up with a proven product that joke of an investigation will make no difference whatsoever. Even the last fluff-filled fact-free PR made it go up over 30%, imagine if they come up with third party numbers, UL certification, manufacturer contracts for units built and the technology being leased etc. How many people will be talking about some Canadian organization that nobody heard of just basically briefly mentioning the name of the IR person. Lets face it, it's all about the product/technology, for better or for worse...
In theory there really doesn't seem to be anything at all in terms of fluff that is still left to PR. The next PR should be efficiency numbers, even if it takes a month or so. The unit is ready, can withstand water pressure, was run in various configurations before, etc. But then again, knowing WDRP, who knows... I really really hope they keep us posted when they choose a test lab, how long tests will take etc instead of another 3 months of nothing at all.
Don't worry, pretty soon they'll PR things that your hose can't do... And saying that a complex heating appliance with ceramic parts is as tough as a garden hose is actually high praise. Like saying a car is built like a bank vault. It's not enough on its own but it's an important part.
Lol yeah this scam is huge... Soon there will be retailers, thousands and thousands of customers in many countries all buying the unit just to help WDRP save face and keep the scam going. Any revenues and subsequent rise in pps will all be part of the scam too.
Hmm, this is pretty much the news I was expecting. Nothing major but still something. They obviously didn't have a proper unit built before, just a bunch of temporary plastic pipes. They probably assumed how hard can it be to replace a few things here and there but that turned into over 3 months of parts cracking, trips to china, etc. At least if the unit is properly built now the rest should require less time. If the efficiency numbers aren't what they should be simply replacing one part with a sturdier one won't help so there shouldn't be any parts delays. I guess time will tell, hopefully not too much time. I'm really glad they at least updated us. Unfortunately investor confidence is so shaken that it will take a whole lot more than this for the price to really move.
I really really hope they don't just say we are ordering more parts. Unless they also deliver something that can be proven, some type of numbers, manufacturer inspection, certification or something, that would make the pps tank really bad. They should have been ordering parts these 3 months.
Yeah, knowing them I wouldn't be shocked if we have another month to wait. Not 3 really but they could easily call one month "near future". And as far as great news, not sure what they could be, I think the news will be more along the lines of we finished the product and are starting 3rd party testing, UL certification, talks with manufacturers, etc., nothing groundbreaking or that will make this spike.
Actually I don't think it's hard at all to decide what is a fact and what isn't. If there are third party numbers, investor meetings where u get to play with the product, the product being on the shelves, manufacturer contracts, UL certifications, all that is stuff that is pretty hard to fake. I would definitely not consider fluff PRs facts although even those done right might be enough for a spike in pps.
I have no idea who can sue who... But if the entire thing falls through Robert's 400M shares would be worth about as much as WDRP's reputation so I doubt they would get into something else. Who knows...
Fortunately opinions on a board don't count for much in how a stock moves. If there will eventually be a product we will all do very very well. If there isn't one we'll lose most of our investment. Right now there is no proof whatsoever there is a working product out there just like there is no proof whatsoever this is a scam or the company is corrupt. The only fact is that there have been very significant delays from the promised timelines but that could just as easily be explained by a long list of reasons to do with how small startups work as it could be explained by the whole thing being a scam. There are very very serious holes in both theories. Until we have some facts all the rest is speculation.
Everyone should just decide if the risk is worth it for them or not and sell/hold accordingly instead of constantly arguing and trying to convince the other side that they are right. People who are invested in this obviously have a very good reason to say it's the best thing since sliced bread so their opinion should be taken with a grain of salt. And even more so for those claiming this is a scam but who still post hundreds of times every month. Let's just wait and see. Obviously time is against the company right now and the longer they go without releasing anything verifiable the more likely it makes it that they are either a scam or just not capable of doing what they promised.
Yeah that's kind of my feeling too. Of course, there is nothing at all to guarantee they aren't a scam but so far i think it's more likely they are inexperienced, naive, overly optimistic, incompetent...
Yeah, I agree with all of that. But the fact is what they showed, with plastic pipes, no wire and no testing on higher water pressure was not a preproduction unit, it was at best a prototype. Which would also explain why it is taking so long after they were supposedly almost done. It really comes down to the difference between what the PRs promise vs what they ultimately deliver, just like with the timelines and everything else. However, my gut feeling is they are just inexperienced and on a very tight budget, not that they are a scam. This has been going on for far too long with no dilution and no volume and they don't seem to make any effort at all to back out of it, they keep saying everything is going great. Yes, at this point it is a very risky investment but I think it has a good enough chance of paying off. Hopefully we find out soon enough.
Technically speaking he said it wasn't reliable and sturdy enough for third party testing, not internal tests or any tests at all. But yeah, you could easily argue it failed in internal tests too. But I don't see how this is a problem. First of all this happens in the early stages of all prototypes and second it is much much easier to make something like this simply beefier and more sturdy than it is to make it perform and have the right efficiency. So the hard part was done and most likely the easier, reliability part, is also done by now. And once it is good enough for third party testing and a limited run of units it is 99% good enough for mass production too.
Kind of like someone putting together a radio or computer in their garage out of parts and wires, the initial prototype will be a mess of parts in a box and will stop working every time the wind blows. But once the functionality is great/revolutionary making that into a reliable piece of equipment is very straightforward and never fails, even if it may take a while. And then you might have Microsoft or Apple... I'm sure some people laughed at their early efforts too.
That is what I was saying, if you are uncomfortable with the engineering ability of companies with 3 employees you are better off investing in a blue chip which rarely makes a big mess of a new product. It's just a risk/reward decision.
As far as the prototype not meeting specs, there are no specs for prototypes, only for finished products, especially for a company like this and for a product that is 100% new and has nothing to be compared to. Every prototype I've seen, particularly in the auto industry, was very very far from being ready to be sold to a consumer and be beat on every day. There isn't much point engineering all the reliability into a product and ironing out every single crease and problem before establishing it's efficiency and main functionality in earlier stages.
I disagree. Every single prototype out there in any industry, especially in the earlier stages, is nowhere near being sturdy enough for everyday use and for final stress testing. That is the entire point of a prototype, something that breaks and you keep making it better. Or something that functions as intended for the most part and lets you tweak the functionality but only as long as you treat it nice and keep it in a lab environment. in this particular case it worked fine on a test bench but cracked when higher pressure city water went through. The production ones won't. Hopefully...
My guess is up until a few months ago they focused a lot on efficiency and felt it was going great but not that much on making a solid, sturdy product out of that technology. Andrew even said that over the last few months they didn't focus much on efficiency at all, only on making it ready for testing. And anyway a penny stock is not supposed to give you "warm and fuzzies", maybe you are more comfortable with a safer investment.
Honestly I felt the same way, like on paper, as far as boxes checked, they are exactly where they were a few months ago, which was the main reason for my call. And I kind of feel the same way after the call but that could be because he would not give any specific answers, which is what I expected. He said that he cannot comment on testing or on when the unit will be ready. There is a lot of stuff they could be doing behind the scene to make the product better and every new part to be ordered could cause a couple of weeks or more of delays. He also did seem to admit that they did think they were further along than they really were. That coupled with the fact that whenever they can think of an improvement they go ahead and implement it, plus the fact they have to ship the unit back and forth and are on a small budget and possibly part-time means it has taken forever and could take longer still... But yes, as far as cold hard facts, tangible milestones, they don't seem to be further along really. However, what he said is definitely plausible and they really could be making progress and really close to a product. All in all I feel better about it but not quite good enough to buy more, just good enough not to sell.
Yeah I talked to him too a couple of days ago. He always answers calls and emails. He did seem to be on somewhat of a short fuse even though I didn't really make any accusations or say anything too negative. The general message was that everything is progressing, they needed to go from a fragile prototype to a finished product that can withstand testing ( new parts being manufactured, trips to china, shipping the heater from place to place etc) and should not be long now.
The main problem with calling him is that he gives out absolutely no information. After the call (20 min at least) I did feel slightly better because he answered and talked to me but I didn't know anything new at all. Of course on one hand this is the way it should be but on the other the investors are still in the dark so I still strongly believe they should PR more. For now I'm holding, might pick up some if under 1c and still believe it has a very real chance of making us a good profit. Of course like with any penny there's a real chance it will flop too.
Yeah, it's really about time for some information and very little excuse for keeping us in the dark this long...
Lol so we have to have two negative stickies at all times or no stickies at all? How about we stick to FACTS? Nothing mocking the company or saying it's a scam, nothing saying it's a life-changing product right around the corner, just things that are proven. It's a fact they promised things they did not deliver and it's a fact there is an AMF investigation ongoing even though it seems like the company isn't really all that involved in it and isn't directly accused of anything. Anything other than that and I would definitely vote for no stickies. Of course I don't have a vote and we all know what the current mods will go for. May have to let the admins settle it.
Lol ok... So yes, like you said, that is just your opinion.
True. Which is why we aren't all super happy right now. But it bodes far far better for actually having something than the company being a scam would.
Yes, only he knows and he said he worked on the new product for 3 years part time. Some of that time even without the help of Design1st. Don't get me wrong, they absolutely took forever on this thing and they absolutely put out PRs with deadlines that then did not actually materialize. The longs are in no way saying the company did great. But to say that the AMF actually has anything at all against them or to say that they have been working on the product 8 years or that this is a scam is 100% unsubstantiated. Just like there isn't much proof right now that there is a product there is also not much proof at all of any of the negativity being pushed around here as fact. And the fact there has been no dilution of any kind and no volume for a long time makes it statistically more likely they are just a small, possibly somewhat incompetent, company rather than some super elaborate scam. Which in turn makes it more likely that they will actually have a product eventually.
Lol ok, so now you are saying they did NOT work on it for 8 years, they just resurrected some failed technology from years ago. Almost the same thing :)
They explained pretty clearly that what they had back then was left to the side on purpose and completely redesigned starting 3 years ago at most. They have also stated very clearly Robert has been working on it part time since then. Also there have been several years in which nobody touched that product in any way. We all know all that very well, to suggest otherwise is just misleading. Yes, someone first talked about A water heater 8 years ago but THIS water heater has only been in development for 3 at most.
Yeah you're right it's not fair to compare an "investigation" where you only need to get some papers together to an actual R&D process where u need to do endless testing, getting parts, finding manufacturers, customers, getting certifications, PRing etc. And once again, everyone knows it's under 3 years, not 8, nobody in their right mind would believe both the inventor and the investors stuck around for 8 years.
Lol so it's ok for this "investigation" to go on for years but if product development lasts years it must mean that they have nothing... Kind of a double standard there.
Really, just like you guys come on here every single day and point out that there is no product and in all honesty there isn't much the longs can respond to that, just like that we can now point out that nothing at all came out of this supposed investigation after a year or so...
LOL! Yes, everyone knows "if" really means "when".
If you say that he was working on it FULL TIME for EIGHT years and right now has NOTHING at all then yes that is a failure.
The rest of us say that they have been working on it PART TIME for THREE years and they do have SOMETHING, even if it isn't fully completed. This would be perfectly reasonable for such a tiny company on a tiny budget for a revolutionary product.
Technically there is just as much proof for either of those statements. It just depends how you look at it. Saying that you know this is a scam is just as misleading as saying you know it will rock the market. Most investors right now are cautiously optimistic if somewhat frustrated, which I think is appropriate...
I could go through the whole story again but everyone here knows it anyway so I won't bother. If you say they've been working on a product continuously for 8 years, came up with nothing and still have a loyal following of investors (maybe less in the last 6 months...), then so be it...
Whoa, that was fast!
What I was saying is it was 3 years, not 8 years. Slight difference.
You do have a point in a way but I would say the difference between a pinky and a blue chip isn't so much in what people expect from the company, it is more in how surprised and outraged they are when they get treated badly, like we are being treated right now... Basically it isn't any less wrong for a pinky to do this, it is just more likely but investors have a right to be just as mad, just maybe slightly less surprised. But both types of investors expect, and have a right to expect, being kept informed and the company keeping its promises, once they definitively promise something I think we do have a right to hold them responsible to that...
The way you keep the pps up, which is in everyone's interest and even a measure of how well a company is doing, is by keeping investors happy. The way you keep investors happy is by A. giving them good (REAL) news and B. by keeping them informed. They don't have a legal obligation to do that but we certainly have a right to expect being informed.
ummm I see 135 in etrade...